toothlessgoon
Registered User
- Apr 18, 2020
- 212
- 74
ExplainCoffey by far.
Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash - comparing the teams where they accomplished those top 5 seasons and it speaks volumes in favour of EK65.Here's how they compare.
Karlsson
Award finishes
Norris : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 12, 15, 18
Hart: 5, 8, 9, 9, 15
Stat finishes
Points: 4, 10
PPG: 6
Paul Coffey
Award finishes
Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9
Hart finishes: 4, 4, 10, 15
Stat finishes
Points: 2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
Goals: 7
GPG: 9
Coffey has Karlsson beat in every metric. Better Norris and Hart record, peaked higher and was elite for longer
Bolded is incorrect.Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash.
Also you forgot one stat:
NHL assists leader:
Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0
All this, but it's also quite a coincidence that 9 of the top 10 highest scoring seasons of all time had Paul Coffey moving the puck up ice.Bolded is incorrect.
It was inevitable people were going to bring up Coffey playing with Lemieux and Gretzky for virtually his entire prime and that's true.
However, in 1994-95 he finished 6th in points and PPG, won the Norris and was almost a Hart finalist. He also led the Detroit red wings in points. He had an 8 point lead over prime Fedorov, who statistically had his 3rd best season of his career (finishing 9th in points). All of this as a 33 year old.
It was half a season, but some evidence nonetheless that Coffey could produce without playing with a superhuman talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.
Also, it's not just the "full" seasons that make Coffey look more impressive. He beats Karlsson in top 10 PPG finishes by a large margin. A stat that is advantageous to players that don't play full seasons.
Player | GP | Non-PK GA | Per game |
Karlsson | 920 | 1,045 | 1.14 |
Coffey | 1,409 | 1,657 | 1.18 |
Player | GP | Non-PK GA | Per game |
Karlsson | 9,20 | 1,045 | 1.14 |
Coffey (19-32) | 1,033 | 1,348 | 1.30 |
Really weird arguments. First of all it’s not true that players who are injury prone, and therefore plays less full seasons, see a rise in ppg, it’s often the opposite. That has to be looked at from case to case and Karlsson very clearly has a lower ppg in his injury riddled/shortened seasons.Bolded is incorrect.
It was inevitable people were going to bring up Coffey playing with Lemieux and Gretzky for virtually his entire prime and that's true.
However, in 1994-95 he finished 6th in points and PPG, won the Norris and was almost a Hart finalist. He also led the Detroit red wings in points. He had an 8 point lead over prime Fedorov, who statistically had his 3rd best season of his career (finishing 9th in points). All of this as a 33 year old.
It was half a season, but some evidence nonetheless that Coffey could produce without playing with a superhuman talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.
Also, it's not just the "full" seasons that make Coffey look more impressive. He beats Karlsson in top 10 PPG finishes by a large margin. A stat that is advantageous to players that don't play full seasons.
Sure, if you wanna ignore all context. A common decease around here…Coffey for peak, prime, career, playoffs. Absolutely no argument for Karlsson.
Did you take a look at the average team of Karlsson vs. the average team of Coffey?Here's how they compare.
Karlsson
Award finishes
Norris : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 12, 15, 18
Hart: 5, 8, 9, 9, 15
Stat finishes
Points: 4, 10
PPG: 6
Paul Coffey
Award finishes
Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 7, 9
Hart finishes: 4, 4, 10, 15
Stat finishes
Points: 2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
Goals: 7
GPG: 9
Coffey has Karlsson beat in every metric. Better Norris and Hart record, peaked higher and was elite for longer
Wrong. Karlsson did it while also being the top point getter and top dog on his team almost every time. None of Coffey’s top seasons he was the top dog on his team. This needs to be accounted for big time. Also Coffey had A LOT better support + (and this is important) he played a lot more full seasons which make his stat line look slightly more impressive, their top 5 is basically a wash - comparing the teams where they accomplished those top 5 seasons and it speaks volumes in favour of EK65.
Also you forgot one stat:
NHL assists leader:
Karlsson: 1
Coffey: 0
There are several other stats where Karlsson has Coffey beat as well:
The all time Dman leader in point on % of team goals: Karlsson. Only Dman since orr to be top 5 in league points while also leading his team in points: Karlsson. 2nd in the league in 5v5 points (while also being the top 5v5 scorer on his team no less): Karlsson. 2nd in the league in blocked shots: Karlsson.
Sure, if you wanna ignore all context. A common decease around here…
Except you're discrediting his point finishes due to the fact he's never been "top dog". So his 1994-95 season as a red wing absolutely does mean something given the fact he lead a team offensively as a defenseman playing with Yzerman and prime Fedorov.Really weird arguments. First of all it’s not true that players who are injury prone, and therefore plays less full seasons, see a rise in ppg, it’s often the opposite. That has to be looked at from case to case and Karlsson very clearly has a lower ppg in his injury riddled/shortened seasons.
Second, just as I wrote, it’s not that impressive to have more high finishes if you’re not the top dog on your team especially playing behind #99 and #66, yes Coffey has that one shortened season as the top dog but that doesn’t mean jack in the “more finishes” argument.
Did you take a look at the average team of Karlsson vs. the average team of Coffey?
Take a look at those and report your findings.
Here are a couple of players Coffey played with:
Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Kurri, Lidström Yzerman, Fedorov
That's just the tip of the iceberg.