Prospect Info: Patrick vs Nico II: Tragic for Patrick or Torpedo for Nico?

[Eric Sachs]

im completely fine with either I just see a 2C in Patrick and Nico I think is more likely to be w top liner. I've stated in the past all around I believe Patrick is the better player. Nicos got more offensive potential for sure though.

So to be clear, you think Patrick is the better player but you don't think we should draft the better player?

alright then.

I mean, if the choice is between a 2C and a 1RW and the 2C is better than the 1RW.. you still ****ing take the 2C. What line they play on doesn't mean **** if you are picking BPA like you should.

 

[The Devil In I]

Here's a couple more.

April 29, 2017 - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ck-the-likely-no-1-pick-in-the-2017-nhl-draft



March 29, 2017 - http://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/03/29/nolan-patrick-scouting-report-2017-nhl-draft-1/



Still waiting for this consensus opinion that he's a #2 that you claimed.

Quoting this just because I guarantee it's going to get ignored after he side-stepped your request to show where the consensus states that Patrick's at most a 2C

 

[Nubmer6]

Quoting this just because I guarantee it's going to get ignored after he side-stepped your request to show where the consensus states that Patrick's at most a 2C

Maybe he read "#2 center picked" and mistook that for a "#2 center".

 

[Blender]

Maybe he read "#2 center picked" and mistook that for a "#2 center".

There have definitely been a couple writers that have said #2 center, and there are always fans on message boards who say stuff, but that is a far cry from a consensus.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

It's beyond ridiculous to pigeonhole Patrick as a 2C...It's based on nothing. He has a better chance of being a 1C than anyone we've had on our team in decades. He has all the ability you want in a centerman.

 

[Classic Devil]

It's beyond ridiculous to pigeonhole Patrick as a 2C...It's based on nothing. He has a better chance of being a 1C than anyone we've had on our team in decades. He has all the ability you want in a centerman.

What's more there aren't that many true #1 centers in the NHL.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

What's more there aren't that many true #1 centers in the NHL.

A number 1 center is the top 30 centers in the NHL. If a player is the 30th best center in the league, they are still a #1 center, but that player is just the worst #1 center in the league. And probably considered a 1/2 C. Kinda like how Palmieri is considered a 1/2 RW.
In no order, here are the players in the league that many fans view as true #1 centers in the NHL.
1. Crosby
2. McDavid
3. Matthews
4. Eichel
5. Malkin
6. Bergeron
7. Kopitar
8. Toews
9. Tavares
10. Getzlaf
11. Stamkos
12. Backstrom
13. Thornton
14. Mackinnon
15. Seguin
16. Barkov


Then you have guys like Huberdeau, Johansen, Turris, Draisaitl?, Giroux, Scheifle, Monohan, Couture, H. Sedin who are all probably in the top 30 centers in the NHL, but not viewed as #1 centers. But they are #1 centers. I'm sure i'm forgetting a few

 

[Emperoreddy]

Ehhh I'm not sure that is the proper definition of a 1C because that means Zajac is a 1C, something no one ever wants to actually claim.

 

[Nubmer6]

When's the last time we had a true #1 center? I'm not sure I'd consider Arnott or Gomez falls into that category. Would we have to go all the way back to Muller?

 

[Edmonton East]

Ehhh I'm not sure that is the proper definition of a 1C because that means Zajac is a 1C, something no one ever wants to actually claim.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Edmonton East]

When's the last time we had a true #1 center? I'm not sure I'd consider Arnott or Gomez falls into that category. Would we have to go all the way back to Muller?

?

Arnott, Gomez, and even Zajac were 1Cs at some point with NJ.

Confused as to how 1C is becoming synonymous with elite franchise center/cornerstone.

 

[Nubmer6]

?

Arnott, Gomez, and even Zajac were 1Cs at some point with NJ.

Confused as to how 1C is becoming synonymous with elite franchise center/cornerstone.

I meant "true #1 center" as defined by the previous post.

 

[AfroThunder396]

If you can win a Stanley Cup with that player as your best center, then they are a #1 center.

If you can win a Stanley Cup with that player as your best PLAYER, then they are a franchise player.

#1C is not a statistical survey, it's a description of player quality independent of context. I mean obviously under the right circumstances you COULD win a Cup with Jason Arnott as your best center, but that only happened when you had two franchise defenseman, a legit #1 LW, and a franchise goalie. That doesn't mean you in a vacuum could insert Jason Arnott into any hypothetical center core and win a Cup with him as your #1 guy. You could do that with Joe Thornton or Anze Kopitar, though.

Guys like Arnott, Zajac, etc could play that role if you needed them to, but they needed heavy support in other areas in order to succeed. A #1 center is a guy that is good enough to hitch your wagon to regardless of the rest of your team composition.

 

[MartyOwns]

oh my god lol. now we're debating how to define a #1C? does that actually matter at all?

 

[NjDevsRR]

oh my god lol. now we're debating how to define a #1C? does that actually matter at all?

Nope, all that matters is picking the better player.

 

[EnglishDevil]

Ranking the centers in the league right now is a really difficult and subjective task, but I came up with the following:

1A: Getzlaf, Eichel, Bergeron, Toews, Seguin, McDavid, Draisaitl, Barkov, Kopitar, Tavares, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Matthews, Backstrom, Scheifele

1B: Kesler, Krejci, Monahan, O'Reilly, MacKinnon, Wennberg, Spezza, Zetterberg, Carter, E. Staal, Johansen, Turris, Giroux, Thornton, Couture, H. Sedin, Kuznetsov

2A: Duchene, Anisimov, Koivu, Stepan, Zibanejad, Stastny, Kadri, Nylander, Johnson, Horvat, Little

2B: Backes, J. Staal, Rask, Backlund, Dubinsky, Nielsen, Larkin, Nugent-Hopkins, Zajac, Brassard, Couturier

In my opinion it's virtually impossible to categorize certain players if the only distinction you use is '1C or 2C', the difference between the worst 1C and the best 2C is so minimal it might as well be non-existent.

With that said I think both Patrick & Hischier will almost certainly end up in the 1B / 2A group, obviously there's still some variation within those groups, but I think that's a fair estimate for the caliber of player they will become. There's a slim chance Patrick becomes a Kopitar/Getzlaf level player, but I think it's more reasonable to assume he'll be closer to guys like Johansen & E. Staal.

 

[JimEIV]

Nope, all that matters is picking the better player.

I don't think it is all that matters...

Don't get me wrong, I hope we get the best player but I wont be upset or disappointed if we don't...as long as we get a very good one.

I'm sure who ever the Flyers take will produce more points than whoever we take. We're starting in a pretty big hole offensively.

 

[Triumph]

If you can win a Stanley Cup with that player as your best center, then they are a #1 center.

If you can win a Stanley Cup with that player as your best PLAYER, then they are a franchise player.

#1C is not a statistical survey, it's a description of player quality independent of context. I mean obviously under the right circumstances you COULD win a Cup with Jason Arnott as your best center, but that only happened when you had two franchise defenseman, a legit #1 LW, and a franchise goalie. That doesn't mean you in a vacuum could insert Jason Arnott into any hypothetical center core and win a Cup with him as your #1 guy. You could do that with Joe Thornton or Anze Kopitar, though.

Guys like Arnott, Zajac, etc could play that role if you needed them to, but they needed heavy support in other areas in order to succeed. A #1 center is a guy that is good enough to hitch your wagon to regardless of the rest of your team composition.

This 'true #1 center' versus #1 center stuff is just pointing out who is incrementally better than whom. Sure, Kopitar in his prime was better than Jason Arnott in his prime, but not tons better. He's more versatile and can kill penalties better for sure, and he's a better passer. You'd take Kopitar over Arnott 100 out of 100 times. But the idea that top centers can take teams places without much support? No way. Not in hockey.

 

[Edmonton East]

Ranking the centers in the league right now is a really difficult and subjective task, but I came up with the following:

1A: Getzlaf, Eichel, Bergeron, Toews, Seguin, McDavid, Draisaitl, Barkov, Kopitar, Tavares, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Matthews, Backstrom, Scheifele

1B: Kesler, Krejci, Monahan, O'Reilly, MacKinnon, Wennberg, Spezza, Zetterberg, Carter, E. Staal, Johansen, Turris, Giroux, Thornton, Couture, H. Sedin, Kuznetsov

2A: Duchene, Anisimov, Koivu, Stepan, Zibanejad, Stastny, Kadri, Nylander, Johnson, Horvat, Little

2B: Backes, J. Staal, Rask, Backlund, Dubinsky, Nielsen, Larkin, Nugent-Hopkins, Zajac, Brassard, Couturier

In my opinion it's virtually impossible to categorize certain players if the only distinction you use is '1C or 2C', the difference between the worst 1C and the best 2C is so minimal it might as well be non-existent.

With that said I think both Patrick & Hischier will almost certainly end up in the 1B / 2A group, obviously there's still some variation within those groups, but I think that's a fair estimate for the caliber of player they will become. There's a slim chance Patrick becomes a Kopitar/Getzlaf level player, but I think it's more reasonable to assume he'll be closer to guys like Johansen & E. Staal.

Nice breakdown. Mainly focused on the 1C cutoff. Red means I'd move down, green up. I also think Little could be a 1B still if he needed to be.

 

[EnglishDevil]

Nice breakdown. Mainly focused on the 1C cutoff. Red means I'd move down, green up. I also think Little could be a 1B still if he needed to be.

It's surprising that even breaking it down into four tiers I had great difficulty placing a few of those guys. The margins are razor thin in certain cases and there's definitely a hierarchy even within the individual tiers.

For example, I completely agree that Little is definitely one of the better 2A's, but does he really belong in the same tier as some of the better 1B's (MacKinnon, Giroux, Johansen, Kuznetsov) who just barely missed the cut off for being a 1A? It's a very subjective and imperfect task, eventually I just established an arbitrary cutoff and went with it, but there's definitely a number of guys that are on the fringe, particularly at the 1B/2A border.

 

[Edmonton East]

It's surprising that even breaking it down into four tiers I had great difficulty placing a few of those guys. The margins are razor thin in certain cases and there's definitely a hierarchy even within the individual tiers.

For example, I completely agree that Little is definitely one of the better 2A's, but does he really belong in the same tier as some of the better 1B's (MacKinnon, Giroux, Johansen, Kuznetsov) who just barely missed the cut off for being a 1A? It's a very subjective and imperfect task, eventually I just established an arbitrary cutoff and went with it, but there's definitely a number of guys that are on the fringe, particularly at the 1B/2A border.

Maybe it isn't that difficult since I agree with you 90% of the way.

I think you can differentiate 1A from 1B pretty easily. I think it's more challenging, but you can still distinguish 1B from 2A. Now, where I think it's a complete toss up is after that. That 2A vs 2B and probably even 3A argument is impossible.

 

[NJDevs26]

Ranking the centers in the league right now is a really difficult and subjective task, but I came up with the following:

1A: Getzlaf, Eichel, Bergeron, Toews, Seguin, McDavid, Draisaitl, Barkov, Kopitar, Tavares, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Matthews, Backstrom, Scheifele

1B: Kesler, Krejci, Monahan, O'Reilly, MacKinnon, Wennberg, Spezza, Zetterberg, Carter, E. Staal, Johansen, Turris, Giroux, Thornton, Couture, H. Sedin, Kuznetsov

2A: Duchene, Anisimov, Koivu, Stepan, Zibanejad, Stastny, Kadri, Nylander, Johnson, Horvat, Little

2B: Backes, J. Staal, Rask, Backlund, Dubinsky, Nielsen, Larkin, Nugent-Hopkins, Zajac, Brassard, Couturier

In my opinion it's virtually impossible to categorize certain players if the only distinction you use is '1C or 2C', the difference between the worst 1C and the best 2C is so minimal it might as well be non-existent.

With that said I think both Patrick & Hischier will almost certainly end up in the 1B / 2A group, obviously there's still some variation within those groups, but I think that's a fair estimate for the caliber of player they will become. There's a slim chance Patrick becomes a Kopitar/Getzlaf level player, but I think it's more reasonable to assume he'll be closer to guys like Johansen & E. Staal.

Solid post and pretty much sums up how I feel about the #1C 'debate'...yeah there are only a certain number of franchise centers but people conflate needing a guy from column A as being the only true #1's out there. Pretty much everyone in your column A or B I'd have no problem having as a #1 center on a good team. A few teams happen to have more than one of those guys while some (like us) obviously have none atm.

Though the original point of the debate kept getting ignored, in that someone said Patrick was being looked at as a second-line center at best which isn't really true. At least not from anything I've seen. I also think your conclusion of Patrick/Hischer probably being a 1B/high 2A isn't that far off.

 

[Emperoreddy]

You could break that list even further as some of those 1As are on another level from others.

That just further proves the original point that your 1C doesn't have to be Crosby or McDavid.

 

[Mike27Devils]

Mcdavid played wing basically all season and the playoffs. He would be a full blown center eventually obviously. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Billdo]

Gomez, the first time obv, and Arnott were without a doubt legit 1Cs in their primes. We haven't had one since though unless you count Zajac. Which I would a few years ago.