mariolemieux66
Registered User
Ooooh!There's three first round picks, but you forgot the roster player. Add Turris.
17th, 30th and 25th~27th overall picks aren't that special.
Ooooh!There's three first round picks, but you forgot the roster player. Add Turris.
Ooooh!
17th, 30th and 25th~27th overall picks aren't that special.
Who cares at what exact spot they were drafted though? Especially with Tolvanen, who has outperformed his draft spot by a large margin so far.
You can't be blinded by a number. Tolvanen and Fabbro are really solid prospects, you can't just say they're bottom-half 1st rounders just because that's where they were picked.
It's amazing to me how some people have absolutely no detection of sarcasm.
I'm amazed too bro.
Tolvanen would be a big centerpiece to land if the Habs don't intend on signing Pacioretty.Who cares at what exact spot they were drafted though? Especially with Tolvanen, who has outperformed his draft spot by a large margin so far.
You can't be blinded by a number. Tolvanen and Fabbro are really solid prospects, you can't just say they're bottom-half 1st rounders just because that's where they were picked.
I know this is a popular take, but it’s flawed. There are tax laws European athletes can take advantage of in Canada that can greatly reduce their taxes.
Tolvanen would be a big centerpiece to land if the Habs don't intend on signing Pacioretty.
I don't see many top prospects on teams that have the need for Pacioretty. Lets look at teams that have an 70% chance or higher of making the playoffs according to Dom L of The Athletic. These are the teams entering today.
Tampa: No real need for secondary scoring or cap space. They have a bunch of good prospects, but I don't see anything that tops Tolvanen. Top prospects consist of Brett Howden, Cal Foote, Katchouk, Anthony Cirelli, Mathieu Joseph, Libor Hajek, and Taylor Raddysh. A strong pool, but nothing that tops Tolvanen, and their 1st won't be of higher value either.
Boston: Could use a piece like Pacioretty who would give them extremely strong secondary scoring on top of arguably the best line in hockey. Prospect pool is average. Key prospects consist of Urho Vaakanainen, Jeremy Swayman, Trent Frederick, Senyshyn, Jakub Zboril, and Jacob Forsbacka-Karlson. Nothing here that beats a package built around Tolvanen unless you can pry Debrusk, and that's questionable if Boston would do it.
Toronto: No real need unless they do what Ottawa did in the Turris deal, where we move JVR so we can get another year of Pacioretty at a good price. Decent pool with Timothy Liljegren, Jeremy Bracco, Carl Grundstrom, Igor Korshkov, and slightly better if you include Kapanen and Dermott. Tolvanen offers higher-upside than a Kapanen package, but Kapanen offers more surety. No real deal here.
Washington: Could really use Pacioretty's secondary scoring at the cheap price with their core quickly aging. No real value in the prospect pool due to going all in over multiple years. Best piece is Samsonov who doesn't really appeal to MTL.
Pittsburgh: Doesn't really fit a big need, they have strong scoring throughout the line-up but Pacioretty is still a fit for a team trying to win with an aging core. Not a great system suffering from the going all-in issue similar to Washington, best piece is probably Sprong. Sprong is probably safer than Tolvanen, but isn't a better prospect.
Columbus: Depth on the wing is one of their strength. They can't offer anything better than Tolvanen, unless you think they'd part with PLD, which they won't. Not much in the way of high-end pieces who could be traded. Best you could realistically ask for is Milano or Abramov.
Nashville: Appear to be going all in. Could use a final piece of secondary scoring to take them to the next level. Tovanen is a great piece, Fabbro is also a good one.
Winnipeg: The last thing they need is secondary wing scoring. Some interesting pieces like Vesalainen, Roslovic, and Dylan Samberg, but not a likely buyer.
Dallas: Could be a great final piece but they already have a lot of scoring power. Best piece is Heiskanen who won't be put on the table for Patches. Other pieces of interest consist of Riley Tufte, Colton Point, Jake Oettinger and Jason Robertson. Nothing outside a package around Heiskanen tops Tolvanen.
St Louis: Gone over a bunch in this thread. I can see the argument for some preferring Robert Thomas over a package built around Tolvanen due to the demand MTL has at center. Other good pieces include Kyrou, Tage Thompson, Klim Kostin. If MTL wants to gamble, Fabbri could be an interesting piece to build a deal around.
Vegas: Could use another high-end scorer to compliment them, but there biggest strength is wing scoring, and I can't see them going all-in. Great pieces for the Habs, a guy like Glass who projects as a center could be preferred to Tolvanen. Other good pieces in Suzuki, Brannstrom and Hague.
Calgary: Would be a good fit as secondary depth scoring allowing them to roll 3 strong scoring lines, although LW is their strength. Some good pieces in Valimaki, Adam Fox, Kylington, and Rasmus Andersson. Don't see anything better than Tolvanen though.
So quickly running through the teams that are likely buyers. In my opinion, unless you can somehow convince St. Louis to build you a package around Thomas or Vegas to build you a package around Glass which fill a massive organizational need I have a hard time seeing a better offer than a package built around Tolvanen.
why do you think Sakic wanted a 3 way trade? wasn't it reported no team was willing to give a top prospect? There was weeks of rumors of him asking for Chabot and a top prospect from NYI (supposed Barzal) obviously no team obliged (in retrospect Girard has been really good). Maybe @EdAVSfan can weigh in.
The point with the Duchene example, as well as the many others that have been cited is that the acquiring team's top prospect were not moved.
i was going off this one that was posted on HF Predators TSP: Nashville Predators Prospects - Last Word on Hockey
Lol touchy touchy. The bolded is literally what I said. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm higher on Poehling than you.
The underlined has nothing to do with this line of discussion. You said "you can't have it both ways" as disagreement to the idea that post draft not all players drafted late in the 1st remain equal in value and bound to the late 1st round valuation. It was dumb.
1st + Lemieux (31st overall) Dano (27th overall) seems to fit that bill no?
When talking about Patch and acquiring a guy who was drafted in the later part of the 1st round, he is all of a sudden a for sure NHL top 6 forward in the future.
You just never know with picks from the 15+ or 20+ range. It's too hard to tell and it typically takes 3-5 years before you see them reach potential. This is why the Habs need to be targeting 3 pieces as 1 or 2 of those pieces (late 1st round picks) might not end up being the player we think they are today.
At the end of the day, the rate for a #3 or #4 guy in your top 6 is somewhere between $5-$7M and I would give Patch no more than $6.5M. JVR is asking for 6x6.
Well i did spend the summer here reading how Mtl fans thought Giroux was done, would not even take him for free while Philly fans kept calling for a rebound since he was playing through major injury.Oh really? Because 3 years ago Crosby was all but done.
I remember everyone saying Ovechkin was done as well before Trotz came in.
Two years ago, Getzlaf was done after s mediocre first half of the season.
Last year, Bergeron was awful for the first three months. Giroux was all but done and had an anchor contract.
After winning his first Vezina, Bobrovski was trash and the year before was pure luck.
Pacioretty is just like the guys above. Very bad in the first quarter of the season but he’s been producing at his normal pace 35G/65pts for the past 25 games.
Check the facts before making a fool out of yourself
Again you're missing the point. People aren't objecting at an unidentified "guy who was drafted in the later part of the 1st round", they're objecting to specific players whose post draft performance has greatly exceeded expectations and invalided "guy who was drafted in the later part of the first round" as the key barometer of their value. Roslovic is basically Poehling (in terms of value/ upside, not style and tools) if Poehling continues to exceed expectations and develop more than perfectly for the next 2 years. Vesalainen was a steal in the ilk of Tolvanen, he's just not getting the hype.
You've implicitly acknowledged the distinction by not liking Lemieux+ Dano/ Petan etc, and likening them to Scherbak/McCarron/ De le Rose, but then refuse to call a spade a spade.
And then you ignored this line of questioning. So you'd give Patches "no more" than .5 million more than JVR. Even assuming JVR doesn't get his ask and settles in the 5.5- 5.75 range that's not exactly a huge amount of differentiation.
But Patches is worth 1st + A Prospect (but what you really mean is a elite/ blue chip) + Warm Body (but what you really mean is an NHL ready A prospect)
where as JVR is worth (as of November last year
"JVR for a 1st round pick (mid to late round) and Hudon would be a fair package (or debatable either way). Trading a elite talent like Sergachev for a rental is STUPID!"
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...hail-sergachev.2155297/page-17#post-125015541
"Scherbak/McCarron + 1st for 2 years of JVR? Are you insane? I like JVR but give them a 1st rounder and that's it!"
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/trade-proposal-thread-part-7.2150643/page-30#post-124873059
It's seems like you've got some massive cognitive dissonance going on, where you explicitly acknowledge Pacioretty's role and value to a team as " a 3-4 type somewhere in your top 6" have salary expectations suggesting a slight upgrade to JVR, yet have trade expectations more in line with the elite in the game.
Either that or complete hypocrisy
I thought warm nhl body meant lower than average player on a mostly cheap deal as opposed to cap dump generally refering to former decent or overpaid player now on 4th line or 3rd pairing.
Well i did spend the summer here reading how Mtl fans thought Giroux was done, would not even take him for free while Philly fans kept calling for a rebound since he was playing through major injury.
I wonder who was the fool then. And its obvious which fan base is foolish now.
And where are the 30 goals of Drouin and Galchenyuk, the 20-25 of Lehkonen? All foolish comments. Those August threads on your board are still there you know for our reading pleasure.
And they call themselves a knowledgeable bunch.
I hear you even if dont recall any Crosby is done threads vs daily giroux proposals ending up as bashing. Claude was injured. Is Max injured?That wasn't my point. A lot of people were saying Giroux was all but done (not just Habs fans) and look how he rebounded. Your point was that Pacioretty slowed down and he's trending downward. I disagreed and gave other examples as to how a player can have a bad stretch (even a season) and come back stronger than ever.
Let's break down Pacioretty's season by month:
October: 11GP - 4G, 0A = 4 points in 11 games
November: 15GP - 4G, 8A = 12 points in 15 games
December: 12GP - 0G, 4A = 4 points in 12 games
January: 11GP - 8G, 3A = 11 points in 11 games
February: 3 GP - 0G, 2A = 2 points in 3 games
Obviously, he's not having the season everyone expected him to have just like the whole team is not having the season everyone expected. He also had a terrible start of the season (October - just like the team did) and a horrible month (December - just like the team did).
However, his foot work is still as good as it was 4 years ago. His shot is as good. His defensive play is as solid as it was 3 years ago. basically, he's still the player he was the past 6 years. He had two bad stretches, it can happen to everyone (Hence why I made my post - which you quoted).
I'm pretty sure every team scouting him sees the same thing. They're buying a 30-35 goals, 65 points who can play PP/PK in his prime who's making $4.5M (Maybe even less if we retain) for this year and the next.
Does that guarantee a cup to whoever acquires him? **** no! Would Pacioretty make any team he's traded to better a closer to a cup? Hell yes, especially if the return is a bunch of draft picks and prospects (as highly touted as they are).
I hear you even if dont recall any Crosby is done threads vs daily giroux proposals ending up as bashing. Claude was injured. Is Max injured?
But the fool comment got me to revisit past posts on Habs board and got to say Toolegit wont like it but i give him the undisputed title of foolish post of the summer when he wrote Mtl would finish 1St in the division, top 5 in team defense, we would find stability in the middle and Leafs and Tb would not make the PO. In the same post.
No, you are missing the point. I showed you an example of a player at age 18 who had crazy junior stats but struggled to reach his potential and is only now starting to show his potential at age 23. There are no guarantees with prospects. It's a risk for the team trading them and it's a risk for the team trading a proven asset for them.
Thomas + Kyrou and Fabbri would probably get it done... hehe
But who is traded exactly in your proposal?Hi! Habs fan here and I just want to chime in on this whole Max Pacioretty trade thread. Personally, I DO NOT see St.Louis or Winnipeg targeting him because that’s not what they need. The blues need a RW and aren’t willing to give up one of their top 2 prospects and the Jets need a 3rd C and maybe a D more than anything. So, what kind of team could use Max and who should the Habs be targeting? I think the best oppertunity would be with New Jersey. Why? Let me tell you,
Why does this make sense for New Jersey?
- New Jersey has been in rebuild mode for a few years. Having Hischier and Zacha as their top 2 Cs sets them up for a very long time. In addition, their D includes Vatanen and Butcher. Their biggest scoring threat is Taylor Hall (who is fantastic) and according to CapFriendly, they have about $7million left on their salary cap.
- New Jersey is probably looking for a top RW and another top 4D BUT I do not see them saying no to another top scorer on the team like Max. With such a young core of players, they could also benefit from having a veteran player like him, on a cheap contract (for what he offers offensively) with an additional year term. They can then evaluate if they want to re-sign him as they’re negotiating contracts with their young players.
Why does this make sense for Montreal?
- It’s no secret that the Habs are looking for a first line C. The odds of us making a trade to get an established one is very unlikely. There is the possibility of signing John Tavares but I wouldn’t put my hopes up for that (so let’s assume that doesn’t happen). New Jersey is probably one of the only teams that can comfortably meet the asking price of Habs (Does that mean they would do it? I have no idea).
- With so many top picks, losing their 1st in 2018 wouldn’t hinder them all too much. In addition, they have a good pool of highly projected C prospects such as Jesper Boqvist and Michael McLeod. If they’re very high on those two players there also Zacha who is currently on their roster.
But who is traded exactly in your proposal?
Fine. But not sure NJ is a better fit for MP than StL or LA often mentioned. NJ is exceeding expectations obviously and must be 100% fine with their season. Market is thinner than most want to face it for him. Plus the draft being real weak for centers.I avoid making trade proposals on here at all costs because it's never really a win/win. Always going to be people from both sides complaining. In essence, the trade would revolve around Max Pacioretty for ONE OF Zacha, Boqvist, or McLeod + 2018 1st .. Anything can change or alter the deal.. salary retention, more pieces etc. But that would be the core
I'm aware of that but I will ask you a few questions....
- Are you an accountant?
- Does the Europeans have this same advantage in the US?
- What would you choose between a city with for sure less taxes vs a city where you have to work around taxes and defer most of your money towards retirement?
- CAD vs USD is also a factor but I highly doubt the players are spending most of their money each year. Depends on the player and the salary I guess.
Lots of factors at play but taxes is the biggest one. It's a popular take for a reason.