Pacioretty and Perron [2009 thread]

[Mathletic]

The difference is that when AK made a body check people said after he started scoring : AK worked hard.

When Latendresse was making body checks people were saying : Oh nice going hitting the boards Fatendresse, the goal is not to make the most noise here Fatsy, even when Latendresse fought people had something negative to say.

The bias on these boards is ridiculous, and so clearly apparent, there isn't even a need to argue this with you guys. We told you that Latendresse had always produced for 3 seasons straight except this season with a new coach that wasn't using him, and you were all too happy to see Latendresse struggle because that validated your bias from the get go. Now that he's getting ice time, lo and behold, he's scoring again. People aren't making stuff up about how he works harder in Minny to explain why he's scoring with them and this is just hilarious.

now that you're in this thread, mind to confirm that outside of us there weren't tons of guys who wanted Théodore out when he was in contract negociations?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The only "against" the grain you have there is the Theodore trade and that's if you're referring to 2002 one(doubt it since I don't think E=CH2 was a member back then). Plenty of people wanted him gone in 05, despite decent statistics in 03-04, he was the goaltender who let in the most 5 goal games, the defense was very, very good in front of him, he was average. Arguing for Price, Higgins and Latendresse are and were very fair positions. So is arguing for drafting Q players. I understand your point about working hard and I agree to some extent.

But that's not why I'm asking the question. I'm asking it because I've noticed more than a few times you've made questionnable posts. Just in this thread, there's one about Kostitsyn and another about Perron. And it is important, because you'd understand how Kostitsyn was utilized, why he saw his ice time reduced and why he saw his ice time increase later on. Playing a better fundamental game, backchecking, forechecking, those aren't lucky plays, they don't depend on linemates(and that's not mentioning the fact he didn't exactly start the year on the fourth line). His play improved when put on the fourth line, if he didn't work harder, he worked better and he got the promotion he deserved. So I'm asking again, when was the last complete NHL or Habs game you saw?

I don't remember you being around. I remember clearly how much support Theodore was getting. People were completely blind to any rational thought when it came to Theodore for the LONGEST time. His support on these boards started to falter shortly before he was traded.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

now that you're in this thread, mind to confirm that outside of us there weren't tons of guys who wanted Théodore out when he was in contract negociations?

What I remember of it is 95% of the boards was like : give him what he wants, goalie of the future, bla bla bla

Price was drafted in 2005 and people were like "why draft a goalie when we have theodore, I don't understand".

 

[Little Nilan]

I don't remember you being around. I remember clearly how much support Theodore was getting. People were completely blind to any rational thought when it came to Theodore for the LONGEST time. His support on these boards started to falter shortly before he was traded.

I wasn't around. Does it matter? There's hockey talk outside these boards, this place is hardly an indication of anything. I knew plenty of people, myself included, that did not like Theodore one bit after 02-03 and just despised his play after the lockout. But if you're talking about his 02 contract(which doesn't make sense seeing as Mathletic said he agreed with you back then yet you've been here since 04), then it's pretty normal that you would get irrational responses. Trading him back then was irrational.


...and weren't you completely against the Price pick? Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember someone reposting that thread and I got a good chuckle from a lot of posters I like, like Whitesnake.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Hey, kudos if you did want to trade Theodore in 2002 after the big year. I remember some people mentioning it and I thought they were crazy. He had a Hasek like season, just dominating from start to finish. Turns out the people who wanted him out were right, he was terrible after that and a total confidence killer. We could've demanded a kings ransom for him, 24 year old hart winning goaltender, probably the most valuable player on the trade market back then.

But while I agree with you to some extent about your points on working hard, I also think you exaggerate it a lot, and disagree with your view of how Kostitsyn started to produce.

I don't think anyone wanted to trade Theo in 2002. That would have been crazy. But I was cautiously optimistic.

02-03 put serious doubts in my mind. After the 03-04 season and 04 playoffs, I was completely against offering him a long contract and wanted him out.

You have to remember, people were crediting Theodore with the win in 7 against the bruins in 04. Yeah, he played well in games 5-6-7, but he was terrible in the first 4 games, got seriously outplayed by Raycroft, and was the reason we had to go to 7 games in the first place. The confidence in Theodore was 100% still there on these boards. Then 04-05 was cancelled and Theodore was up for renewal during the 05 summer, and people were still in love with Theodore back then.

 

[Little Nilan]

03-04 Theodore was the goaltender that let in the most 5 goal games in the league. Couldn't stand him despite his stats, he was purely a product of the system. Like you said, he was the only reason the Bruins weren't swept and he was totally outplayed by Khabibulin the round after.

Anyways, this was about Mathletic going against the grain. Forget HF, we were plenty who didn't like Theodore as a starting goaltender going forward. I remember being pissed he got a raise on his new contract and thought Gainey was dumb not getting rid of him when Lacrois was offering Tanguay/Hejduk, he waited until he was worthless. Thing is, Mathletic was completely vague once again when I asked him if he meant 02 or 05. I still don't know what year he was talking about.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

...and weren't you completely against the Price pick? Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember someone reposting that thread and I got a good chuckle from a lot of posters I like, like Whitesnake.

Yes I was against the Price pick because

1) Goalies are fickle and it's difficult to accurately predict their development
2) Goalies take longer to develop and produce at a valuable #1 level in the NHL, and with the new CBA that had just been signed, players become UFAs at 25-27 years old depending when they joined the league. Price will be an UFA at 26 I think. I just didn't think it was wise to go for a goalie this early in the first round
3) Goalie development being slightly harder to predict, you can find solid keepers in later rounds all the time and we had a shot at a really good young potential star forward in Brule/Kopitar
4) Price wasn't a high ranked pick by any major publication, not like say Fleury or Lehtonen were. So I thought we were taking a big chance on this when Kopitar/Brule were still available and were high ranked in a lot of media rankings prior to the draft.

All in all my main beef wasn't with Price, I had never watched him play, but with the choice of drafting a goalie this high when potential star forwards were still available.

Hopefully I keep being wrong on this one.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

03-04 Theodore was the goaltender that let in the most 5 goal games in the league. Couldn't stand him despite his stats, he was purely a product of the system. Like you said, he was the only reason the Bruins weren't swept and he was totally outplayed by Khabibulin the round after.

Anyways, this was about Mathletic going against the grain. Forget HF, we were plenty who didn't like Theodore as a starting goaltender going forward. I remember being pissed he got a raise on his new contract and thought Gainey was dumb not getting rid of him when Lacrois was offering Tanguay/Hejduk, he waited until he was worthless. Thing is, Mathletic was completely vague once again when I asked him if he meant 02 or 05. I still don't know what year he was talking about.

Well, good for you then ! But looking at these boards, and looking at the rest of the general population/medias, etc a LARGE portion of people were still in love with Theodore. So it was indeed going against the grain.

 

[InglewoodJack]

Getzlaf was a great draft pick, no doubt. I think Kostitsyn was picked for a different reason, that Timmins saw him as a sniper, something the Habs didn't have enough of. Kost was a slow starter and he doesn't have Getzlaf's playmaking skills. IMO from now on Kostitsyn will regularly score more goals. This season he's caught up to Getzlaf in goals and will probably pass him (as well as Cammallari by the end of the season).

Yeah. Although Getz would of been cool to get(z?), I'm one one AK's biggest fans, even in the dark days. And with Getzlaf, who knows? We could of dealt Plek, which would of sucked.
Something else, I'm not going to quote, because I don't feel like finding the post, but someone actually said that Perron would of been better because he's "get" what its like to be a Hab? Serious? Everyone gets what its like to be a Hab. Actually, this 4 word motto pretty much explains playing for any team. Play Hard, Win Games. Period. Soccer teams in South America and England mean much more for their people than the Canadiens, and they're happy getting the best players, not those who "get what its like being a X player". Stupid reasoning, this team is storied, but at the base is just like any other team.

 

[kovalost27]

HIIINNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTT

But go ahead, talk about it all week and have a part two while you're at it.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

HIIINNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTT

But go ahead, talk about it all week and have a part two while you're at it.

Hindsight is exactly what GMs and scouts are paid for. Just saying.

Otherwise, we could just use maggie the monkey to roll a ball and decide who we draft.

 

[thewall]

No, he is a left winger who is passing more than scoring.

We cxould had them both if gainey had chosen Pac instead of McDonough and Perron instead of Pac.

They picked McDonough mainly because they ****ed up big time with Fischer the year before.

Sorry to bump this thread but this comment is so funny now....

How many of us still want Perron over Pacioretty?? Right now I think we could actually have both in our lineup!

 

[LaP]

Sorry to bump this thread but this comment is so funny now....

How many of us still want Perron over Pacioretty?? Right now I think we could actually have both in our lineup!

We got the 2 right guys. Sadly we traded one for the mexican.

 

[BaseballCoach]

We got the 2 right guys. Sadly we traded one for the mexican.

Three right guys. Our third pick, at 45th spot, was Subban.

 

[JuicyHam]

This thread is really funny!

My favourite comment is the perron leblanc 1-2 centre combo which was obviously something that sounded awesome back then but terrible now.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

Great bump, thanks for the laughs

 

[Mathletic]

ended up looking good in the Gallagher thread that was brought to life last spring. This time, not so much

... though I have to say in me defence that I changed my mind on Pacioretty not too long after that thread.

 

[Kojo]

2009 thread, really?

I was all upset until I realized it.

Edit: That year (2007) we drafted 3 of the top 5 picks. That was the year Timmins earned his legendary status.

 

[MasterDecoy]

sweet bump brosef

some interesting comments, nice read. like a history book on how smart/delerious/idiotic we can be at times

 

[CanadienShark]

This is... strange. Some points on the first page are spot on. The others... can't be further from the truth. Sometimes those points are even in the same posts.

Also nice to see some of our older, more established posters.

 

[thewall]

i happend to click on the 500 page at the bottom of the hf board page and moved up 10 more page to see when it was and saw that thread and was curious to read it.. there was also a thread that proposed trading Plekanec.. Sk74 and Obyrne for Doan.... Horton or Arnott!

 

[capebretoncanadien]

Great bump....funny (and sobering) read.

 

[habsterr]

Timmins making the right call; the 2007 NHL draft is a year to remember for him. Subban, Mcdonagh and Pacioretty wow!

 

[Brainiac]

This bump is also a reminder that you should never fill a projected lineup with current prospects.

 

[Seb]

David Perron
Center
Born May 28 1988 -- Sherbrooke, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

Max Pacioretty
Left Wing
Born Nov 20 1988 -- New Canaan, CT
Height 6.01 -- Weight 203 -- Shoots L

______________________________________

This is why I prefer and would of taken Perron over Pacioretty:

1) He is a Quebec born French Canadian player that will understand what it means to be a Canadiens player more than someone from the states.

2) He is a center and the same size as Pacioretty, we were short and weak at the center position at that point and needed to draft up the middle before any other spot, imagine him and Leblanc as a future top two?

3) David Perron had publically stated how badly he wanted to play for the Canadiens and how it would have been a dream to be drafted by them.

Knowing Pacioretty might be the next captain, WI might want to take this one back.