Pacioretty and Perron [2009 thread]

Little Nilan

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Oct 29, 2006
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Praha
Outside getting more ice-time there's not a whole lot that has changed. He didn't play in Montreal, now he's playing 15 minutes a game and he scores again. When Andrei didn't get any ice-time what did he say, can't score when you don't play. When they get the ice-time they start scoring again.

Just wondering, when was the last time you watched an NHL game? I'm curious because it seems you haven't in years from the way you post. Seems like you go strickly by what you read on yahoo. Andrei earned his ice time by working hard, he didn't sulk when put on the fourth line, he turned his game around.
 

Mathletic

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Feb 28, 2002
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Ste-Foy
Just wondering, when was the last time you watched an NHL game? I'm curious because it seems you haven't in years from the way you post. Seems like you go strickly by what you read on yahoo. Andrei earned his ice time by working hard, he didn't sulk when put on the fourth line, he turned his game around.

the working hard stuff is BS. I'm tired of hearing, workd hard, get your nose dirty crap over and over again.
 

Little Nilan

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Oct 29, 2006
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Praha
the working hard stuff is BS. I'm tired of hearing, workd hard, get your nose dirty crap over and over again.

Funny world you live in. Fact of the matter is, for whatever reason, Kostitsyn started playing better after being put on the fourth line and earned his ice time from there. It could be because he started working hard, or because his bro came back, or because he started ****ing girls like crazy. I don't give a ****, but the question remains, when was the last time you watched an NHL game?
 

Mathletic

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Feb 28, 2002
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Ste-Foy
Funny world you live in. Fact of the matter is, for whatever reason, Kostitsyn started playing better after being put on the fourth line and earned his ice time from there. It could be because he started working hard, or because his bro came back, or because he started ****ing girls like crazy. I don't give a ****, but the question remains, when was the last time you watched an NHL game?

I don't care much for what you think of me. From the point on I was on Hf I've often been against the grain and I can't say I'm too shameful of my opinions. I was with E=CH² camp to trade Theodore the summer he signed his big contract because we had all indications that his reputation was vastly artificial. Then I was in the Carey Price camp at the 05 draft against Pouliot and Brule people. Obviously was in the Giroux camp over Fisher, Perron camp over Pacioretty, though that issue could have been avoided had the Canadiens done their job the year before and picked him out of the AAA league. I was in favor of the Higgins-Hossa trade, though it could be argued that the Canadiens could have shopped for another player who was signed instead of trading for a pending UFA had the Canadiens wanted to trade Chris. I argued in favor of Latendresse and thus far he's responding well with 6 goals in 13 games, so seriously, I don't think I have to defend what games I'm watching or not. A player can't change over night simply by working hard. They're NHL players. They're the best at playing hockey in the world. Nobody's taking it easy out there and nobody wants to fail at being a good hockey player. Tough stretches happen and it's not by magically playing hard for a few shifts that you stop a bad stretch. **** happens. Get your ice-time, play, be utilized in positions in which you can succeed and you'll overcomes obstacles. The work hard, get your nose dirty stuff I don't buy. Play your game, that's it for me.
 

Nidema

Registered User
Oct 28, 2009
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I don't care much for what you think of me. From the point on I was on Hf I've often been against the grain and I can't say I'm too shameful of my opinions. I was with E=CH² camp to trade Theodore the summer he signed his big contract because we had all indications that his reputation was vastly artificial. Then I was in the Carey Price camp at the 05 draft against Pouliot and Brule people. Obviously was in the Giroux camp over Fisher, Perron camp over Pacioretty, though that issue could have been avoided had the Canadiens done their job the year before and picked him out of the AAA league. I was in favor of the Higgins-Hossa trade, though it could be argued that the Canadiens could have shopped for another player who was signed instead of trading for a pending UFA had the Canadiens wanted to trade Chris. I argued in favor of Latendresse and thus far he's responding well with 6 goals in 13 games, so seriously, I don't think I have to defend what games I'm watching or not. A player can't change over night simply by working hard. They're NHL players. They're the best at playing hockey in the world. Nobody's taking it easy out there and nobody wants to fail at being a good hockey player. Tough stretches happen and it's not by magically playing hard for a few shifts that you stop a bad stretch. **** happens. Get your ice-time, play, be utilized in positions in which you can succeed and you'll overcomes obstacles. The work hard, get your nose dirty stuff I don't buy. Play your game, that's it for me.

So whats your argument? Andrei didn't start playing better because he worked hard on the 4th line? Does hitting more, skating harder taking more shots not equate to working or at least trying harder?

I don't get your logic... you can reach a conclusion with flawed logic. Just because the outcome supports your conclusion does not mean your methodology for reaching there was correct.
 

Mathletic

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Feb 28, 2002
15,777
407
Ste-Foy
So whats your argument? Andrei didn't start playing better because he worked hard on the 4th line? Does hitting more, skating harder taking more shots not equate to working or at least trying harder?

I don't get your logic... you can reach a conclusion with flawed logic. Just because the outcome supports your conclusion does not mean your methodology for reaching there was correct.

bad stretches happen, that's the only point about Andrei and Guillaume, there's more luck involved in hockey than people say there is. Give the guy ice-time and he'll overcome whatever is wrong with him and put him in situations in which he can succeed. Do you honestly believe Andrei is playing better because he hit a couple of players? What did Andrei say about shooting more? Want me to shoot from the red line? His timing maybe was off perhaps, not saying he didn't change anything in his play but still, the major change in his production came from getting ice-time, getting the right teammates, and be put in situations in which he can succeed
 

Little Nilan

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Oct 29, 2006
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Praha
I don't care much for what you think of me. From the point on I was on Hf I've often been against the grain and I can't say I'm too shameful of my opinions. I was with E=CH² camp to trade Theodore the summer he signed his big contract because we had all indications that his reputation was vastly artificial. Then I was in the Carey Price camp at the 05 draft against Pouliot and Brule people. Obviously was in the Giroux camp over Fisher, Perron camp over Pacioretty, though that issue could have been avoided had the Canadiens done their job the year before and picked him out of the AAA league. I was in favor of the Higgins-Hossa trade, though it could be argued that the Canadiens could have shopped for another player who was signed instead of trading for a pending UFA had the Canadiens wanted to trade Chris. I argued in favor of Latendresse and thus far he's responding well with 6 goals in 13 games, so seriously, I don't think I have to defend what games I'm watching or not. A player can't change over night simply by working hard. They're NHL players. They're the best at playing hockey in the world. Nobody's taking it easy out there and nobody wants to fail at being a good hockey player. Tough stretches happen and it's not by magically playing hard for a few shifts that you stop a bad stretch. **** happens. Get your ice-time, play, be utilized in positions in which you can succeed and you'll overcomes obstacles. The work hard, get your nose dirty stuff I don't buy. Play your game, that's it for me.

The only "against" the grain you have there is the Theodore trade and that's if you're referring to 2002 one(doubt it since I don't think E=CH2 was a member back then). Plenty of people wanted him gone in 05, despite decent statistics in 03-04, he was the goaltender who let in the most 5 goal games, the defense was very, very good in front of him, he was average. Arguing for Price, Higgins and Latendresse are and were very fair positions. So is arguing for drafting Q players. I understand your point about working hard and I agree to some extent.

But that's not why I'm asking the question. I'm asking it because I've noticed more than a few times you've made questionnable posts. Just in this thread, there's one about Kostitsyn and another about Perron. And it is important, because you'd understand how Kostitsyn was utilized, why he saw his ice time reduced and why he saw his ice time increase later on. Playing a better fundamental game, backchecking, forechecking, those aren't lucky plays, they don't depend on linemates(and that's not mentioning the fact he didn't exactly start the year on the fourth line). His play improved when put on the fourth line, if he didn't work harder, he worked better and he got the promotion he deserved. So I'm asking again, when was the last complete NHL or Habs game you saw?
 

Nidema

Registered User
Oct 28, 2009
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bad stretches happen, there's more luck involved in hockey than people say there is. Give the guy ice-time and he'll overcome whatever is wrong with him and put him in situations in which he can succeed. Do you honestly believe Andrei is playing better because he hit a couple of players? What did Andrei say about shooting more? Want me to shoot from the red line? His timing maybe was off perhaps, not saying he didn't change anything in his play but still the major change in his production has been getting ice-time, getting the right teammates, and be put in situations in which he can succeed

I disagree. I respect your opinion but I don't think it stands in this case. With Andrei, I notice that he is charging to the net, taking shots when he can and making hits when needed. He never did this at the beginning of the season. He started doing it when he was on the fourth line. I also remembered a couple of shifts where he actually back checked. That's compete and trying hard. While I do agree ice-time is a big part of it, Andrei put himself in the situation where more ice time was warranted by doing the little things right.

I always was a big believer in making opportunities yourself by working hard. Andrei's ice time was not gifted to him. It definitely was at the beginning of the season. He got demoted a couple lines and now, he has earned it through working on the 4th line.
 

Newhabfan

Registered User
Sep 3, 2008
2,300
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Montreal
I mostly remember the 2007 draft because of the "Why the h.. did Timmins and Gainey pick that McDonagh american kid instead of local sure value Esposito " riot. I bet Mathletic was there too (unfortunately the search forum option does not go that far back so I could not dig for proof).

Let's face it - Latendresse is not as bad a player as he was with us this year. He simply refused to play the way he was asked to, forcing the team into a trade.

In his interview he said that ever since he did not get a contract similar to Brassard, he "knew he was not wanted here". Then he was in a semi-strike, refusing to do what was asked of him. In Minny he started playing his normal way doing all kind of stuff he refused to do here.

I honestly wish him luck and success, the same way I do with all the players that were Habs at some time (Komisarek excepted). But it was his decision not to put an honest effort here - he had tons of chances and he blew them.
 

Bowzer

Registered User
May 22, 2008
68
0
a lot of people are expecting a power forward type player out of patches but i dont really know
just because hes a big guy doesnt necessarily mean hes a power forward, i mean when u watch him play he has incredible speed and has the ability to dangle around players, now obviously his shot and scoring abilities are a bit rusty but if he can work on that i could see him being a wojtek wolski type player
big guy like patches but also has the speed to make him a dangerous type player (now i may be very off with the comparison because ive only seen wolski play a few times but thats what ive seen from him)
basically what im saying is patches might become an entirely different player than what u expect, but from what ive seen so far from patches u wont be dissapointed

Patches is a power forward! he plays like one already. All he needs is experience and everything will fall in place. You may be right on Wolski type player as far as skill but as far as character wise, I think patches plays a more physical game already.
 

Mathletic

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
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407
Ste-Foy
The only "against" the grain you have there is the Theodore trade and that's if you're referring to 2002 one(doubt it since I don't think E=CH2 was a member back then). Plenty of people wanted him gone in 05, despite decent statistics in 03-04, he was the goaltender who let in the most 5 goal games, the defense was very, very good in front of him, he was average. Arguing for Price, Higgins and Latendresse are and were very fair positions. So is arguing for drafting Q players. I understand your point about working hard and I agree to some extent.

But that's not why I'm asking the question. I'm asking it because I've noticed more than a few times you've made questionnable posts. Just in this thread, there's one about Kostitsyn and another about Perron. And it is important, because you'd understand how Kostitsyn was utilized, why he saw his ice time reduced and why he saw his ice time increase later on. His play improved when put on the fourth line, if he didn't work harder, he worked better and he got the promotion he deserved. So I'm asking again, when was the last complete NHL or Habs game you saw?

go ask him then if you don't think he was a member and a guess he'll tell you that we weren't plenty of people who wanted him out. IF you go back to 05 threads you won't find too many people supporting the Price pick either.

not saying I never made questionable posts but anyway. I don't make the same connections from point A to B as people do. I don't see the time spent on the 4th line as being a cause for his scoring burst. His scoring drought was simply a bad stretch, nothing more, nothing less. I'm fine if people want to give credit to a coach for turning a player around but I don't buy it. Scoring is more random than people make it out to be, that's my only point. Bad stretches happen.

As for the last complete game, a precise answer, I don't know, I miss a few minutes tonight skipping around with the Us-Slovakia game. So did I the game before with Canada's game going on. I guess the precise game that I fully watched without skipping much time would be the game against the Islanders, lucky me, if that changes anything.

I mostly remember the 2007 draft because of the "Why the h.. did Timmins and Gainey pick that McDonagh american kid instead of local sure value Esposito " riot. I bet Mathletic was there too (unfortunately the search forum option does not go that far back so I could not dig for proof).

Let's face it - Latendresse is not as bad a player as he was with us this year. He simply refused to play the way he was asked to, forcing the team into a trade.

In his interview he said that ever since he did not get a contract similar to Brassard, he "knew he was not wanted here". Then he was in a semi-strike, refusing to do what was asked of him. In Minny he started playing his normal way doing all kind of stuff he refused to do here.

I honestly wish him luck and success, the same way I do with all the players that were Habs at some time (Komisarek excepted). But it was his decision not to put an honest effort here - he had tons of chances and he blew them.

not so much for Esposito. Not that I didn't want him. I mean, if it meant picking Esposito would mean picking more QMJHL players then fine you would have got me with it. I still thought up to his recent injury that Esposito was a fine player. I thought he played well for the Juniors in his final season and played great for Canada and showed he could play a 3rd line role to start his career in the NHL while scoring goals. That said, it's not like McDonagh is turning out like a monster player on defense either. A fine player sure, but still.

Latendresse is doing in Minnesota what he did the years before, he hits and scores goals. He's not asked to play Selke-like defense, simply doing his part. He may have improved in Minny like he could have improved in Montreal had he been given the ice-time needed. He's a young player, it's normal that we'd think he's improved in Minnesota but I don't buy that he couldn't have given this to Montreal this season.
 
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Little Nilan

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Oct 29, 2006
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Praha
Hey, kudos if you did want to trade Theodore in 2002 after the big year. I remember some people mentioning it and I thought they were crazy. He had a Hasek like season, just dominating from start to finish. Turns out the people who wanted him out were right, he was terrible after that and a total confidence killer. We could've demanded a kings ransom for him, 24 year old hart winning goaltender, probably the most valuable player on the trade market back then.

But while I agree with you to some extent about your points on working hard, I also think you exaggerate it a lot, and disagree with your view of how Kostitsyn started to produce.
 

WestIslander

Registered User
Feb 5, 2008
2,365
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Montreal, Quebec
David Perron
Center
Born May 28 1988 -- Sherbrooke, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

Max Pacioretty
Left Wing
Born Nov 20 1988 -- New Canaan, CT
Height 6.01 -- Weight 203 -- Shoots L

______________________________________

This is why I prefer and would of taken Perron over Pacioretty:

1) He is a Quebec born French Canadian player that will understand what it means to be a Canadiens player more than someone from the states.

2) He is a center and the same size as Pacioretty, we were short and weak at the center position at that point and needed to draft up the middle before any other spot, imagine him and Leblanc as a future top two?

3) David Perron had publically stated how badly he wanted to play for the Canadiens and how it would have been a dream to be drafted by them.
 

CanadienErrant*

Guest
David Perron
Center
Born May 28 1988 -- Sherbrooke, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

Max Pacioretty
Left Wing
Born Nov 20 1988 -- New Canaan, CT
Height 6.01 -- Weight 203 -- Shoots L

______________________________________

This is why I prefer and would of taken Perron over Pacioretty:

1) He is a Quebec born French Canadian player that will understand what it means to be a Canadiens player more than someone from the states.

2) He is a center and the same size as Pacioretty, we were short and weak at the center position at that point and needed to draft up the middle before any other spot, imagine him and Leblanc as a future top two?

3) David Perron had publically stated how badly he wanted to play for the Canadiens and how it would have been a dream to be drafted by them.

No, he is a left winger who is passing more than scoring.

We cxould had them both if gainey had chosen Pac instead of McDonough and Perron instead of Pac.

They picked McDonough mainly because they ****ed up big time with Fischer the year before.
 

flowerpower13*

Guest
There is no discussion with that pick...only with the french media. You will win a Cup with guys like Maxpac even if he has less points, he'll bring more to the table.
 

Le Maroons

Registered User
Sep 15, 2005
2,608
0
Ottawa
AKostitsyn: Did he really earn his icetime with hard work on the 4th line guys? Didn't he just replace an injured Gionta for lack of better options?

He definitely looks better since joining that line though.
 

Corey

Guest
Chipchura vs. Green?
Kostitsyn vs. Getzlaf?
and the grandaddy of draft day burps...
Markov vs. Datsyuk

(No smiley needed)

Getzlaf was a great draft pick, no doubt. I think Kostitsyn was picked for a different reason, that Timmins saw him as a sniper, something the Habs didn't have enough of. Kost was a slow starter and he doesn't have Getzlaf's playmaking skills. IMO from now on Kostitsyn will regularly score more goals. This season he's caught up to Getzlaf in goals and will probably pass him (as well as Cammallari by the end of the season).
 

Corey

Guest
There is no discussion with that pick...only with the french media. You will win a Cup with guys like Maxpac even if he has less points, he'll bring more to the table.

I've kept my eye on Pacioretty. I think he'll eventually become a Gainey-type player. When Gainey was drafted in 1973 he was 20 years old, compared to Pacioretty's 18 (he's now 21). Let's see what Pacioretty is capable of at age 23. I'm not suggesting he'll be as good as Gainey but he seems to be almost unique among Hab forwards.
 

Mathletic

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
15,777
407
Ste-Foy
AKostitsyn: Did he really earn his icetime with hard work on the 4th line guys? Didn't he just replace an injured Gionta for lack of better options?

He definitely looks better since joining that line though.

that would be more like it for me

Gionta got hurt and a couple of games later Andrei started racking up points
 

Jack Bourdain

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mar 25, 2008
13,156
0
David Perron
Center
Born May 28 1988 -- Sherbrooke, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

Max Pacioretty
Left Wing
Born Nov 20 1988 -- New Canaan, CT
Height 6.01 -- Weight 203 -- Shoots L

______________________________________

This is why I prefer and would of taken Perron over Pacioretty:

1) He is a Quebec born French Canadian player that will understand what it means to be a Canadiens player more than someone from the states.

2) He is a center and the same size as Pacioretty, we were short and weak at the center position at that point and needed to draft up the middle before any other spot, imagine him and Leblanc as a future top two?

3) David Perron had publically stated how badly he wanted to play for the Canadiens and how it would have been a dream to be drafted by them.

That is up to the player to chose how to contribute to the Canadiens legacy. You can't put a player in that position: "We drafted you because you're a good player, BUT MAINLY becuase you're French Canadian and you will now represent what it is to be a Canadiens". A lot of Quebec born players avoid playing for the Habs for that exact reason, and for those that do play here, we somehow end up bashing them for not contributing enough (see: Tanguay, Alex.)

We want players from here, but players from here don't necessarily want that.
 

Cole Caulifield

Registered User
Apr 22, 2004
27,967
2,465
So whats your argument? Andrei didn't start playing better because he worked hard on the 4th line? Does hitting more, skating harder taking more shots not equate to working or at least trying harder?

I don't get your logic... you can reach a conclusion with flawed logic. Just because the outcome supports your conclusion does not mean your methodology for reaching there was correct.

The difference is that when AK made a body check people said after he started scoring : AK worked hard.

When Latendresse was making body checks people were saying : Oh nice going hitting the boards Fatendresse, the goal is not to make the most noise here Fatsy, even when Latendresse fought people had something negative to say.

The bias on these boards is ridiculous, and so clearly apparent, there isn't even a need to argue this with you guys. We told you that Latendresse had always produced for 3 seasons straight except this season with a new coach that wasn't using him, and you were all too happy to see Latendresse struggle because that validated your bias from the get go. Now that he's getting ice time, lo and behold, he's scoring again. Now people are making stuff up about how he works harder in Minny to explain why he's scoring with them and this is just hilarious.
 
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