Our Future In Goal

[Calculon]

Why does "not ready" = "bust" in your mind? Or if you prefer, substitute "not ready" for "not earned a job in the NHL"

Or is it "always earned, never given, unless you are waiver eligible"?

Because it's impossible. To "earn" a spot, he needs to have played in the NHL, outperforming Hiller and Ramo. But to play in the NHL, he needs to first, "earn" a spot.

Apparently, his numbers in the AHL don't count, save the small stretch in the beginning of last season when the whole team stunk. That small stretch of games and an even smaller training camp is the sample size is the only one Ortio should be judged by.

 

[Lunatik]

Because it's impossible. To "earn" a spot, he needs to have played in the NHL, outperforming Hiller and Ramo. But to play in the NHL, he needs to first, "earn" a spot.

Apparently, his numbers in the AHL don't count, save the small stretch in the beginning of last season when the whole team stunk. That small stretch of games and an even smaller training camp is the sample size is the only one Ortio should be judged by.

Seriously, stop over-dramatizing what has been said. No one said the AHL doesn't count. But the guy has less than 100 pro games and during that small sample size he has had some poor stretches. The guy is not a guarantee at the NHL level and if we want to be a playoff team again (which I am sure we can all agree that Treliving & Burke do want that) you cannot gift a spot to a goaltender who has that little pro experience. Maybe if Ortio managed to stay healthy for a season and let the AHL club on a playoff run things would be different.

 

[Master Bill]

Because a few ofus are of the opinion that he isn't considered to be considered good enough league wide to get claimed and have a team stuck with him on the main roster in a roster spot given his low NHL sample size. Any team who claims him has to keep him up on the NHL team without assigning him to the AHL.

My opinion of Ortio has been such for a while. I think using his 4 game winning streak as an example of anything is foolish.

There are several factors as to why it is unlikely Ortio gets claimed.

1. At the end of camp teams will have their goaltending set as it is too risky for them not to.
2. Most teams have comparable prospects to Ortio.
3. If claimed they have to gift him a roster spot.
4. Players are rarely claimed off waivers at the end of camp.
5. The last goaltender claimed off waivers was Joey MacDonald when we got him from Detroit

Good points.

Why don't you think Ortio has starting G potential though? He's had success at every level (Finnish pro league, WJC, AHL) excluding the NHL, and even at the NHL level he has shown his capabilities (not solely in the 4 game winning streak).

He's still 24. It's been 5 years since he was drafted and I still think he has lots of room to grow since goalies take around 6-7 years to fully develop.

He has that starting goalie character too. Watching his interviews, he's somewhat similar to Hiller in the sense that they both have the swagger to maintain their high standards, which I think is an important trait in a goalie to not get demoralized after a bad goal.

 

[Lunatik]

Good points.

Why don't you think Ortio has starting G potential though? He's had success at every level (Finnish pro league, WJC, AHL) excluding the NHL, and even at the NHL level he has shown his capabilities (not solely in the 4 game winning streak).

He's still 24. It's been 5 years since he was drafted and I still think he has lots of room to grow since goalies take around 6-7 years to fully develop.

He has that starting goalie character too. Watching his interviews, he's somewhat similar to Hiller in the sense that they both have the swagger to maintain their high standards, which I think is an important trait in a goalie to not get demoralized after a bad goal.

I just don't think he will, I don't see anything that special in his game. People also overrate his 2013-14 season significantly, after Berra was called up Ward changed the system that the team was playing in front of him back to a defensive style and it helped Ortio put up bloated numbers, he was no better than Berra was that year but Berra's numbers were terrible because the team could not stop cross crease passes in the slot and he was hung out to dry worse than I have ever seen. Ortio is a homeless man's version of Kipper, he will make flashy saves and have amazing games then he will allow a bunch of muffins. I would love to be wrong about Ortio, but even if he has that potential like so many seem to think, he is just not ready yet.

 

[Oblivion]

It does seem likely that he clears waivers given that no GM should be heading into training camp with multiple question marks in goal. That being said it doesn't really solve the problem that if he's supposed to be a part of the future (or may be) that he ought to be getting reps in the NHL.

Treliving is doing a killer job running the team so I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think that the Ramo signing puts us in an awkward position in that letting Ramo go (as a UFA) or Hiller (for future considerations) seems to me like the best idea all things considered.

Both are better than Ortio but with consideration for the direction of the team I'd have liked to see them roll with Ortio next year and see what the kid can do; Ramo and Hiller are sold but knwon quantities at this point.

 

[Dertell]

Pretty unlikely Ortio isn't claimed by teams with garbage backups like Pittsburgh or Nashville. His numbers at any level he played trash Hutton's and Zatkoff's and he's much younger than both. Not to mention his AHL numbers in the last two years were comparable to Jones and Markstrom at the same age (23-24).

 

[Mobiandi]

I just don't think he will, I don't see anything that special in his game. People also overrate his 2013-14 season significantly, after Berra was called up Ward changed the system that the team was playing in front of him back to a defensive style and it helped Ortio put up bloated numbers, he was no better than Berra was that year but Berra's numbers were terrible because the team could not stop cross crease passes in the slot and he was hung out to dry worse than I have ever seen. Ortio is a homeless man's version of Kipper, he will make flashy saves and have amazing games then he will allow a bunch of muffins.I would love to be wrong about Ortio, but even if he has that potential like so many seem to think, he is just not ready yet.

This was essentially the story of our goaltending tandem last season too...

 

[Lunatik]

This was essentially the story of our goaltending tandem last season too...

I'm not sure what your point is since the tandem was doing that in the NHL and Ortio does it in the AHL

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think Treliving has something up his sleeve. I think he signed Ramo for insurance but it's no secret he's not happy with our situation. I think some kind of deal will be made.

 

[Lunatik]

I think Treliving has something up his sleeve. I think he signed Ramo for insurance but it's no secret he's not happy with our situation. I think some kind of deal will be made.

I think he tried to improve the situation but was unable to because he didn't like the cost. Most rumors were us looking to add someone (Lehner, Talbot, Jones), the only one that involved Hiller being moved was Ward and Friedman (I think) saying he wouldn't be surprised if neither Ramo or Hiller was back.

So I think people are reading into Hiller being shopped a little too much, to me it looks like he was willing to move Hiller for a guy who could start 65+ games (Ward). And then signed Ramo when he was unable to acquire a younger goaltender with more potential, which also tells me he is not sold on Ortio being a starter anytime soon.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think he tried to improve the situation but was unable to because he didn't like the cost. Most rumors were us looking to add someone (Lehner, Talbot, Jones), the only one that involved Hiller being moved was Ward and Friedman (I think) saying he wouldn't be surprised if neither Ramo or Hiller was back.

So I think people are reading into Hiller being shopped a little too much, to me it looks like he was willing to move Hiller for a guy who could start 65+ games (Ward). And then signed Ramo when he was unable to acquire a younger goaltender with more potential, which also tells me he is not sold on Ortio being a starter anytime soon.

I'm in agreement with your last sentence. We were rumoured to be in on several young netminders, that fact alone tells me all I need to know and that he lacks confidence in Ortio as a long term solution. Treliving wanted a young netminder who would fit in with the rest of our core. Ortio theoretically fits that description, but yet we still went shopping so that's pretty telling IMO.

 

[Lunatik]

I'm in agreement with your last sentence. We were rumoured to be in on several young netminders, that fact alone tells me all I need to know and that he lacks confidence in Ortio as a long term solution. Treliving wanted a young netminder who would fit in with the rest of our core. Ortio theoretically fits that description, but yet we still went shopping so that's pretty telling IMO.

I still stand behind my observation that we never signed an AHL veteran too. Last year Treliving made the point to sign an AHL veteran just days into free agency to provide support for Ortio, but this year with a younger and less experienced Gillies in the fold he doesn't? That tells me 1 of 2 things, either he has more faith in Gillies than Ortio already (which is unlikely) or he expects Ortio to be the AHL. I'm putting my money on door #2.

Quite frankly I think he has extremely high hopes for Gillies and I think Gillies may be in the NHL next season. I see him on a career path similar to Gibson in Anaheim, 1 year in the AHL playing 40-50 games with a cup of coffee in the NHL and then being the NHL backup the following year. Which also fits with Treliving looking for a young potential starter as a stopgap since Hiller is a UFA after this year (and so was Ward if you buy that rumor)

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I think Treliving has something up his sleeve. I think he signed Ramo for insurance but it's no secret he's not happy with our situation. I think some kind of deal will be made.

Me too, but that's not as exciting as a pending controversy.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I'm not sure what your point is since the tandem was doing that in the NHL and Ortio does it in the AHL

Umm Ortio was an AHL All-star... Hiller and Ramo are average at best.

48-21-1, that's weak in your opinion? Okay... Because the team is well below .500 without Ortio, that tells me he's a pretty dominant goalie at the AHL level.

And that list of goalies put on waivers in the last 4 years only proves my point. All those guys were over-paid has beens, career backups, or third string AHL fodder.

Literally not one goalie that was a young up and coming prospect was put on waivers, not one. The only half decent guy on there was Harding, and he has MS, so it's not a surprise he wasn't claimed.

 

[Volica]

I think Treliving has something up his sleeve. I think he signed Ramo for insurance but it's no secret he's not happy with our situation. I think some kind of deal will be made.

Absolutely.
Ortiz has to be big this camp and show he can out perform Hiller and Ramo,

Both contracts Can be moved; Hiller might take some retention... But I'm sure if Ortio shows well, he will be in the NHL.

This isn't last years Nucks, we don't have a guaranteed spot for a 6 million dollar goalie and then Have to choose between a 26 year old potential starter and a 24 year old potential starter. It's why I keep saying, this isn't the same situation as the Nucks. We don't have the luxury of losing a potential starter in favor of a thirty year old rocky lower end starter or a 33 year old middle road starter.

 

[Devilspuppet666]

I just don't think he will, I don't see anything that special in his game. People also overrate his 2013-14 season significantly, after Berra was called up Ward changed the system that the team was playing in front of him back to a defensive style and it helped Ortio put up bloated numbers, he was no better than Berra was that year but Berra's numbers were terrible because the team could not stop cross crease passes in the slot and he was hung out to dry worse than I have ever seen. Ortio is a homeless man's version of Kipper, he will make flashy saves and have amazing games then he will allow a bunch of muffins. I would love to be wrong about Ortio, but even if he has that potential like so many seem to think, he is just not ready yet.

Ortio is also like 4 years younger than Berra... 4 years in goalie development is pretty dramatic... and i think hes going to be the backup by this years end then competing next year for start with whomever we keep

 

[Lunatik]

Umm Ortio was an AHL All-star... Hiller and Ramo are average at best.

48-21-1, that's weak in your opinion? Okay... Because the team is well below .500 without Ortio, that tells me he's a pretty dominant goalie at the AHL level.

And that list of goalies put on waivers in the last 4 years only proves my point. All those guys were over-paid has beens, career backups, or third string AHL fodder.

Literally not one goalie that was a young up and coming prospect was put on waivers, not one. The only half decent guy on there was Harding, and he has MS, so it's not a surprise he wasn't claimed.

Oh golly gee an AHL all-star? I wish I had known he was on a list of AHL all-stars that includes NHL greats like Barry Brust, Justin Peters, Curtis McElhinney, Michael Leighton, Tyson Sexsmith, Jeff Zatkoff, Yann Danis, Cedric Desjardins & Matt Hackett! In case you were wondering those are 6 of the 9 all-star goaltenders in 2012 & 2013. The list of AHL all-stars has more busts than it does players who succeed at the NHL level.

Where did I say he was weak? Stop making things up, it's getting old and frankly I am sick and tired of it

That list of goaltenders on waivers also includes other AHL all-star goaltenders, weird.

 

[Lunatik]

Ortio is also like 4 years younger than Berra... 4 years in goalie development is pretty dramatic... and i think hes going to be the backup by this years end then competing next year for start with whomever we keep

Ortio had also played some in North America before and Berra hadn't that plays a part too. As for him being the backup this year, I think it is extremely unlikely unless there is a trade (which I don't see happening because there are rarely trades between now and opening night).

 

[Devilspuppet666]

Ortio had also played some in North America before and Berra hadn't that plays a part too. As for him being the backup this year, I think it is extremely unlikely unless there is a trade (which I don't see happening because there are rarely trades between now and opening night).

10 games when he was 19/20 years old... and management keeps saying stay the course, does it make sense to keep a 33 (going on 34) year old UFA goalie in Hiller and a 29 year old goalie in Ramo over a 24 year old in Ortio, who has shown promise in nearly every league hes played in? i'd say no... and honestly i think they will go into training camp with 3 goalies if 1 really plays awful then he gets moved (trade, waivers, AHL) if they all play good i think they will run 3 goalies until 1 can be moved, but they wont loose Ortio for free.

 

[Kahvi]

Lets say Ortio gets send down to AHL, he's not claimed and he plays full season there withtout call-ups. Does he need to clear waivers before '16-'17 season, or can he start with the NHL team in 2016? (assuming he's good enough etc.)

 

[Lunatik]

Lets say Ortio gets send down to AHL, he's not claimed and he plays full season there withtout call-ups. Does he need to clear waivers before '16-'17 season, or can he start with the NHL team in 2016? (assuming he's good enough etc.)

Every season every player under contract starts with the NHL team and is demoted. ANd there is no re-entry waivers anymore so he would never have to clear waivers to be brought up.

 

[Lunatik]

10 games when he was 19/20 years old... and management keeps saying stay the course, does it make sense to keep a 33 (going on 34) year old UFA goalie in Hiller and a 29 year old goalie in Ramo over a 24 year old in Ortio, who has shown promise in nearly every league hes played in? i'd say no... and honestly i think they will go into training camp with 3 goalies if 1 really plays awful then he gets moved (trade, waivers, AHL) if they all play good i think they will run 3 goalies until 1 can be moved, but they wont loose Ortio for free.

10 games is still 10 games, he had an idea of what to expect, he also had ECHL time prior to being recalled that year. And if they stay the course it doesn't mean Ortio is going anywhere, as several of us have pointed out there is a very slim chance he will be claimed as teams cannot afford to gift a spot to a guy with 15 career games on a position as vital as goaltending. And a bad camp won't affect Hiller or Ramo too much because they have proven their worth over a full season before, for Ortio to have a chance to make the team out of camp he is going to have to give Hartley a reason to believe he will be better than either of them were last season .

 

[Ace Rimmer]

(snip)
and honestly i think they will go into training camp with 3 goalies if 1 really plays awful then he gets moved (trade, waivers, AHL) if they all play good i think they will run 3 goalies until 1 can be moved, but they wont loose Ortio for free.

This is what I believe will happen as well. If Ortio is as good as (or better than) the other two goalies in training camp then I truly think the Flames will find a way to keep him around.

Something that hasn't been mentioned (much, if at all) is after this season, both Ramo & Hiller are UFA, so the absolute worst case scenario is Ortio is claimed after being assigned to the AHL, and neither Ramo or Hiller re-sign. While the chances of this happening are low, management can't roll the dice like that as it would completely **** up the rebuild.

Honestly, if Ortio is as good as Ramo & Hiller, I think one of Hiller or Ramo gets demoted (depending on play) if they can't find a trade partner.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

This is what I believe will happen as well. If Ortio is as good as (or better than) the other two goalies in training camp then I truly think the Flames will find a way to keep him around.

Something that hasn't been mentioned (much, if at all) is after this season, both Ramo & Hiller are UFA, so the absolute worst case scenario is Ortio is claimed after being assigned to the AHL, and neither Ramo or Hiller re-sign. While the chances of this happening are low, management can't roll the dice like that as it would completely **** up the rebuild.

Honestly, if Ortio is as good as Ramo & Hiller, I think one of Hiller or Ramo gets demoted (depending on play) if they can't find a trade partner.

I agree. Wait for a trade to open up. If Ortio really isn't the guy, then trade him before exposing him to waivers like the leafs did with Colbourne.

Personally I think we see Hiller traded, but if we have to wait for another team to lose a starter then so be it.

But I give a guarantee if Ortio is sent down on waivers he will be claimed. His performances over the last few years indicate he's one of the best tenders in the AHL, and his performance at the NHL level indicate that he at least deserves a chance to show what he's got, before we give him up for free.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I agree. Wait for a trade to open up. If Ortio really isn't the guy, then trade him before exposing him to waivers like the leafs did with Colbourne.

I'd rather take my chances on waivers than trade him for a measly 4th round pick or something.