Our Abysmal Defense

[HavlatMach9]

The last time the sens were good defensively is when Karlsson had a significantly smaller role.

but the last time Karlsson had a 'reduced role' (injury), they still gave up a ton of shots

we've gone through many coaches, but none of them have been in the NHL afterwards either.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

2009-10 Kuba was injured and was 5th in total icetime, Karlsson 6th, (7th and 6th respectively in 5v5 icetime) They both had less SA/60 than anyone above them

2010-11 Karlsson was certainly part of our shots against issues.

2011-12 Karlsson had 3rd fewest shots against per 60, only Gilroy (traded for at the deadline) and Cowen had less.

2012-13 Karlsson played all of 17 games, so not worth looking into. With all the injuries, a more defensive system was adopted.

2013-14 Methot and Gryba were the only regulars with lower SA/60

2014-15 Wier and Methot had less, but also missed significant time

2015-16 Karlsson currently has the lowest SA/60.

I think the problem is depth on D myself.

I actually am more leaning to your conclusion. For me i dont so much care about a bottom pairing dman like Boro playing less then 15 minutes a night with some on the pk. Need some better 18-21 minute a night dmen. Ceci, Cowen and Wier dont cut it.

I was kinda iffy on how a should present my post.

 

[Micklebot]

I actually am more leaning to your conclusion. For me i dont so much care about a bottom pairing dman like Boro playing less then 15 minutes a night with some on the pk. Need some better 18-21 minute a night dmen. Ceci, Cowen and Wier dont cut it.

The other big factor is system. MacLean in particular played a run and gun system. Cameron has modified it a bit, but for the most part it's the same. Clouston came in with a very offensive based system too, but tried to adapt it when it became painfully apparent that the goaltending was woefully inadequate.

 

[God Says No]

Good article. Wier is surprisingly better statistically here than I would have expected

...and we had Boro and Cowen playing together for a while.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

We have a great top 6, a great goalie, and a superstar defenseman. We've done the hard part. The rest of pieces should be the easier ones to get (not "easy", just "easier"). That's what's frustrating.

Well unfortunately what the team needs isn't easy to get and if a top 6 and/or a 2/3 D is available the cost will be high.

So while people may realize what the team needs to be a solid contender, they seem to forget the GIVE part of the GIVE to GET equation.

IMO there is no way the Sens will acquire a top 4 D in a trade without giving up a top roster player plus in return.

Think Hoffman, Stone or Turris as a starting point.

Fact is the Senators are deep with high end prospects that might entice a GM to make a trade without wanting a high end roster player.

IMO players like Neil, Boro, Cowen, Wiercoich, Chaisson, JGP, Smith, Prince, Puempel and Lazar aren't going to attract the quality of player the Sens need to upgrade their roster.

So while Murray has likely had a lot of conversations with other GMs, I really don't think he has the assets at this point in time to get a deal done without creating another big hole.

Of course Murray could opt to trade for an improvement in the D, giving up less in the process, but it wouldn't be a 2/3 guy, more likely a 4/5.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I wouldn't want to trade Chabot with the way he is playing. We should use one of our many forward prospects(Puempel,Dzingel, Paul, Lindberg etc) and a pick for a trade.

OR if we are unwilling or unable to do a trade, sign someone in the offseason.

These guys won't get what the Sens need IMO.

The Sens need a top 2/3 Dman and given the scarcity of them its going to be expensive.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Agree. I would go as far as Zib is seldom a top 6 player .... The team needs him to pick it up. He has a huge role.

Zib's on pace for 50 point season and if he had consistent linemates probably would top 60 points.

Not bad for a 22 year old center that plays against the top line most road games.

 

[DrEasy]

Well unfortunately what the team needs isn't easy to get and if a top 6 and/or a 2/3 D is available the cost will be high.

So while people may realize what the team needs to be a solid contender, they seem to forget the GIVE part of the GIVE to GET equation.

IMO there is no way the Sens will acquire a top 4 D in a trade without giving up a top roster player plus in return.

Think Hoffman, Stone or Turris as a starting point.

Fact is the Senators are deep with high end prospects that might entice a GM to make a trade without wanting a high end roster player.

IMO players like Neil, Boro, Cowen, Wiercoich, Chaisson, JGP, Smith, Prince, Puempel and Lazar aren't going to attract the quality of player the Sens need to upgrade their roster.

So while Murray has likely had a lot of conversations with other GMs, I really don't think he has the assets at this point in time to get a deal done without creating another big hole.

Of course Murray could opt to trade for an improvement in the D, giving up less in the process, but it wouldn't be a 2/3 guy, more likely a 4/5.

Yeah, I agree. If the philosophy is to do just enough to squeak into the playoffs and wish for the best, depending on where we are at the trade deadline I imagine some trade from our prospect depth (hopefully not White or Chabot, but then again who else do we really have? Paul? Puempel? Prince? It would be selling low to trade them now.) to get that elusive top 4 D, probably one who has a bad contract.

 

[krapsik]

IMO there is no way the Sens will acquire a top 4 D in a trade without giving up a top roster player plus in return.
Think Hoffman, Stone or Turris as a starting point.

I guess, you are Zibby fan.Thats why you dont put him in that list Turris, Stone and Hoffman is untachables.
But i'd trade Zibby for a upgrade on D in a heart bit.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

I've seen Hawks fans state that Keith played a lot better when they acquired Oduya, because they didn't ALWAYS have to rely on that top pairing.

Karlsson would have more relief if we had more than 1 NHL defense pairing.

Seriously, our need for just one competent LH defenseman is almost comical.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I've seen Hawks fans state that Keith played a lot better when they acquired Oduya, because they didn't ALWAYS have to rely on that top pairing.

Karlsson would have more relief if we had more than 1 NHL defense pairing.

Seriously, our need for just one competent LH defenseman is almost comical.

I dont even think its needs to be a LD even a right d on the second pairing that can be relied on would be a blessing. Ceci is having a bad year and probably needs to be sheltered

 

[Wallet Inspector]

I dont even think its needs to be a LD even a right d on the second pairing that can be relied on would be a blessing. Ceci is having a bad year and probably needs to be sheltered

Thing about Ceci is, unlike Cowen, Boro or Wier, he can skate well and make a good pass.

He is strugging because management refuses to give him a top 4 level defense partner. I guarantee you he'll turn it up if we get him someone talented to play with.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Yeah, I really don't get the idea of trading away Ceci to upgrade the 2nd RD spot. It really wouldn't be much of an improvement to the team......no 'bang for the buck.'

It's like, you're in the middle of nowhere and drive over a bunch of nails. Tire A has a slow leak but is decent. Tire B is completely flat. Anyone with common sense replaces tire B with the spare. Replacing tire A with the spare won't get you anywhere. At least replacing tire B might get you far enough down the road to make your destination.

 

[Mercurial]

Erik Johnson rental? Prospect and a 2nd.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Yeah, I really don't get the idea of trading away Ceci to upgrade the 2nd RD spot. It really wouldn't be much of an improvement to the team......no 'bang for the buck.'

It's like, you're in the middle of nowhere and drive over a bunch of nails. Tire A has a slow leak but is decent. Tire B is completely flat. Anyone with common sense replaces tire B with the spare. Replacing tire A with the spare won't get you anywhere. At least replacing tire B might get you far enough down the road to make your destination.

I liked this

 

[God Says No]

Thing about Ceci is, unlike Cowen, Boro or Wier, he can skate well and make a good pass.

He is strugging because management refuses to give him a top 4 level defense partner. I guarantee you he'll turn it up if we get him someone talented to play with.

Totally agree. In an ideal scenario, we would get 2 top 4 D to push Ceci down to the third pairing. But a veteran top 4 LHD would do wonders for Ceci and our D corps. Someone like Beauchemin. Although not sure how he's doing this year, but the guy from 2 years ago would be heaven sent.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Well unfortunately what the team needs isn't easy to get and if a top 6 and/or a 2/3 D is available the cost will be high.

So while people may realize what the team needs to be a solid contender, they seem to forget the GIVE part of the GIVE to GET equation.

IMO there is no way the Sens will acquire a top 4 D in a trade without giving up a top roster player plus in return.

I didn't see a UFA signing as an option in your post?

Sky is falling .... or is it Eugene maybe .....?

 

[Neiler]

The entire D below the top pair suffers from inexperienced players playing with inexperienced players.

Methot [463] / Karlsson [431] = 894GP
Cowen [241] / Wiercioch [185] / Ceci [163] / Boro [118] / Wideman [23] = 730GP


For comparison:
Ottawa: 1624GP, seven players

Three teams I think we'd all consider to have good D:
Nashville: 2455GP, six players
Los Angeles: 2922GP, seven players
Chicago: 3915GP, seven players


I admit these numbers aren't exactly a science here, players still need to be good. For example...
Edmonton: 2548GP, seven players. 907 of that is perma-benched Ference, making them a much less experienced 1641GP between six players. Untalented ones.


Bottom line, I think this team needs at least one experienced, steady guy on the back end to help the others grow to their potential.

 

[topshelf15]

Just move one of Cowen or Wier already ,they both arent cutting it .How many more games are they going to cost us before our management finally ,see that they are both busts.Call up Claesson,or somebody else,because at this point i cant see whomever the call up being much worse

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Just move one of Cowen or Wier already ,they both arent cutting it .How many more games are they going to cost us before our management finally ,see that they are both busts.Call up Claesson,or somebody else,because at this point i cant see whomever the call up being much worse

Not sure they alone have cost us many games, if any.

 

[God Says No]

The entire D below the top pair suffers from inexperienced players playing with inexperienced players.

Bottom line, I think this team needs at least one experienced, steady guy on the back end to help the others grow to their potential.

Yes, I think that's part of it. I posted this already, but my view is that we have too many guys on the D that are one or both of the following:

- slow
- terrible at handling the puck

You can put all Cowen, Wier and Boro in that category. If Phillips was here, he'd be on the list as well. That's 3 out of 7 right now. Now do the same exercise with the teams you mentioned:

NSH - maybe one, Jackman
LAK - again possibly one, McNabb
CHI - one with the recent addition of Scuderi

You can't have half of the D corps like that.

 

[topshelf15]

Not sure they alone have cost us many games, if any.

They have been the fulcrum on why we get owned in the dzone .Too slow to react to the play,thus we spend too much time defending .Not saying they are the only cause ,but as far as the dcorps they are

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I guess, you are Zibby fan.Thats why you dont put him in that list Turris, Stone and Hoffman is untachables.
But i'd trade Zibby for a upgrade on D in a heart bit.

Exactly what part of what I wrote did you miss?

The list contained players that might possibly return a top 4 D-man, Zib does not qualify IMO.

While I do like Zib and believe he has lots of upside, potential won't bring the return the Sens need, it will have to be a player that is already producing at a reasonably high level, thus the names on the list.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

They have been the fulcrum on why we get owned in the dzone .Too slow to react to the play,thus we spend too much time defending .Not saying they are the only cause ,but as far as the dcorps they are

While I agree the team spends too much time defending, that isn't just a function of the D.

This team just doesn't compete hard enough in all zones without the puck and they make too many high risk or lazy plays with the puck that result in lower possession time, which translates into defending more.

The number of odd man rushes, being outworked in puck battles, breakdowns in coverages, failures to get pucks deep in the O-Zone and generally poor puck management are off the charts.

IMO what we are seeing is a failure by many to play the game with a high level of compete and an attempt to get by purely on skill.

Yes the D needs to be better, but the forward group needs to be much better without the puck.

PS I also believe Cameron needs to adjust to the player's abilities and not force a square peg into a round hole. IMO many of his top players just can't play a north-south game effectively, nor do they have great success with the dump and chase.

 

[topshelf15]

While I agree the team spends too much time defending, that isn't just a function of the D.

This team just doesn't compete hard enough in all zones without the puck and they make too many high risk or lazy plays with the puck that result in lower possession time, which translates into defending more.

The number of odd man rushes, being outworked in puck battles, breakdowns in coverages, failures to get pucks deep in the O-Zone and generally poor puck management are off the charts.

IMO what we are seeing is a failure by many to play the game with a high level of compete and an attempt to get by purely on skill.

Yes the D needs to be better, but the forward group needs to be much better without the puck.

PS I also believe Cameron needs to adjust to the player's abilities and not force a square peg into a round hole. IMO many of his top players just can't play a north-south game effectively, nor do they have great success with the dump and chase.

This is the problem lack of skill in the bottom 6 combined with some really bad dmen .And you get a team that has bad possession skill ,guys like neil,chia dizzy etc in the bottom 6 are just bad at maintaining puck posession.Add in guys like Lazar,Zibby,Smith.Milo that arent very good at it either.And you get far too many one and done plays in the ozone ,and with cowen and weir playing to 4 mins well.....its not pretty