Ottawa Senators : Darkest Hour

[Mingus Dew]

This is nothing new.
Hossa demanded (and got) market value. Traded.
Havlat asked for market value. Traded.
Chara asked for market value. Let walk as a FA.
Alfie.... stayed for years under market value. They never bothered to pay the man, so he left.

The only difference this time is everybody knows Karlsson is a sure-fire HOFer and if thats not enough to finally say "Ok fine. Market value is totally fair." then what is?

In fairness Chara walking was about a lot more than just his salary ask.

 

[JD1]

If the team comes out and says they don't think Erik will ever be effective on his zombie ankle and won't pay $10+ mil for him on a big UFA deal, then I might be able to get behind it. But we aren't seeing any indications of that. As a matter of fact, Erik was tossed into the lineup asap, and is still playing heavy minutes. Doesn't look like they're worried about his ankle...

We'd have to hear more about the locker room incident before suggesting it's some sort of character killer. Most guys in the room are alphas, and you expect some unflattering words to fly when things aren't going well. Saying someone is failing at their job when they clearly are isn't exactly a character flaw, imo. Dorion being upset that he didn't receive the "respect" he wanted, feels more like his own ego might be the problem, not the players (assuming fuzzy reports coming out are true). But, like I said, hard to judge when so many details are missing.

the team cannot come out and say that we don't think his ankle will recover. they can think it but they can't say it. it would harm the return. Assume his ankle is good. Why has he been so bad?

we don't know what happened in the room. if PD wanted a few words with the team but someone turned up the music, told him to f*** off and go away then we've got problems.

I remember an intermission interview with Stone in January. He said we've got top guys not playing the right way. I thought at the time he was referring to Hoffman. The timing of that interview and the alleged dressing room incident and Stone coming out weeks later saying he wants to be part of the solution makes me think he may have been referring to karlsson

 

[Mingus Dew]

the team cannot come out and say that we don't think his ankle will recover. they can think it but they can't say it. it would harm the return. Assume his ankle is good. Why has he been so bad?

we don't know what happened in the room. if PD wanted a few words with the team but someone turned up the music, told him to **** off and go away then we've got problems.

I remember an intermission interview with Stone in January. He said we've got top guys not playing the right way. I thought at the time he was referring to Hoffman. The timing of that interview and the alleged dressing room incident and Stone coming out weeks later saying he wants to be part of the solution makes me think he may have been referring to karlsson

So if this is about needing to ditch Karlsson for hockey/culture reasons, what’s with attaching Ryan’s contract? Wouldn’t that harm the return as well?

The team doesn’t care about the return.

 

[billpo]

I have been a fan from the start...yes I have been frustrated before, but I can safely say, I have never felt so discouraged...and that feeling of helplessness, is the worst....don't know boys and girls...these clowns are destroying this franchise...all decisions are about saving money...I can't believe we have sunk so low.

 

[JD1]

This is nothing new.
Hossa demanded (and got) market value. Traded.
Havlat asked for market value. Traded.
Chara asked for market value. Let walk as a FA.
Alfie.... stayed for years under market value. They never bothered to pay the man, so he left.

The only difference this time is everybody knows Karlsson is a sure-fire HOFer and if thats not enough to finally say "Ok fine. Market value is totally fair." then what is?

what you've mentioned here is true but it lacks context. Ottawa was the team coming out of the 04 lockout that the experts noted had the biggest issue with the cap. We couldn't pay everyone market value back then and keep them all.

Alife and the under market. That's a common narrative. look at his career earnings relative to career comparables. He wasn't underpaid. And what's worse is that he screwed himself. He signed long term pre locket and played 4 years on a 24% rolled back contract. He was part of the union team that negotiated that. That was on his agent. Not the team's fault at all

 

[JD1]

So if this is about needing to ditch Karlsson for hockey/culture reasons, what’s with attaching Ryan’s contract? Wouldn’t that harm the return as well?

The team doesn’t care about the return.

well nothing has happened yet. The adding Ryan on hasn't happened and likely won't. I don' think we'd be above the floor it they did that so it actually CAN'T happen. It is just being pushed by the TML media ownership

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

It felt pretty helpless when Hot Rod Bryden was saying the team would move unless we got to 11,500 season ticket holders or somesuch. Eugene Melnyk has not given the fans a season ticket base ultimatum, so overall he must be pretty happy with how things are going.

Things are pretty dark though, I'll grant that. If we lose Karlsson all bets are off for sure.
(Also, it may seem darker because of the presence of social media like Twitter, which gives everyone a voice whereas previously, it was only the Hockey News or TSN that spoke about the team.)

 

[Mingus Dew]

well nothing has happened yet. The adding Ryan on hasn't happened and likely won't. I don' think we'd be above the floor it they did that so it actually CAN'T happen. It is just being pushed by the TML media ownership

Fair point. As I said we are working with incomplete information.

I don’t necessarily think this is just some media sideshow though. I guess we’ll find out shortly.

 

[billpo]

Ottawa will have an NHL team in Lebreton.

If Melnyk moves the team another group, with deep pockets is ready and willing to step up.

I've always thought this...there is no way Melnyk can do this alone...and no one will build him the rink without having part or majority ownership of the team...we can only hope

 

[JD1]

Fair point. As I said we are working with incomplete information.

I don’t necessarily think this is just some media sideshow though. I guess we’ll find out shortly.

removing Phaneuf, Karlsson and Ryan is about 20 in payroll. We added back Gaborik. Not sure how exactly it plays out but that puts you below the floor I think

 

[SENSational]

Lol @ Ottawa not being a good hockey market. Ottawa at one point was known for being hockey obsessed. Constant sellouts for the Sens (always ranked one of the highest in the NHL, even during mediocre years), good 67s teams, posting an attendance record (at the time) for the WJCs, also hosting one of the largest annual hockey tournaments in the world, and producing a lot of NHL coaches.

Now, there is a clear disconnect between the fans and ownership. There is no plan, and that is more evident today than ever. Cost cutting management, scouting, and pretty much the entire front office staff means the team can't operate properly, which is made even worse with that imbecile who owns the team thinking he knows how to run it too. The franchise is in disarray and that starts from the top, not the bottom.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I have been a fan from the start...yes I have been frustrated before, but I can safely say, I have never felt so discouraged...and that feeling of helplessness, is the worst....don't know boys and girls...these clowns are destroying this franchise...all decisions are about saving money...I can't believe we have sunk so low.

I kinda feel the opposite. If it's true Erik is moving (why trade Brass now if we aren't rebuilding?), and we're going to tear down and rebuild, then I feel like all the games are "freebies." It's kinda like watching two neutral teams where you don't have a stake in who wins, and you can just sit back and watch hockey for the love of it. No expectations, no trying to keep up with Toronto (or any other rivals), no delusions of ever winning a Cup or spending to the cap (not with El Cheapo at the helm).

While it takes most of the passion out of being a fan, it does make things easier....and a bit more fun. Win, lose...whatever. Just play a fun, up-tempo game with (hopefully) lots of scoring and I'll be a happy camper.

 

[Spirit of 67]

NOT true.

NHL GM has been shut down by owner after another bad trade.

Not buying it. After the other trades, this minor deal is the tipping point?

 

[JD1]

I've always thought this...there is no way Melnyk can do this alone...and no one will build him the rink without having part or majority ownership of the team...we can only hope

I've wondered how Melnyk comes up with the money to build....it's not chump change.

 

[bert]

This is nothing new.
Hossa demanded (and got) market value. Traded.
Havlat asked for market value. Traded.
Chara asked for market value. Let walk as a FA.
Alfie.... stayed for years under market value. They never bothered to pay the man, so he left.

The only difference this time is everybody knows Karlsson is a sure-fire HOFer and if thats not enough to finally say "Ok fine. Market value is totally fair." then what is?

Neither Hossa or Havlat demanded trades. You can't just make stuff like this up.

 

[dumbdick]

Merge with all the other doom and gloom threads.

 

[JD1]

Neither Hossa or Havlat demanded trades. You can't just make stuff like this up.

actually if you read his post Bert it's you making up saying they demanded trades. That's not what the poster said.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Neither Hossa or Havlat demanded trades. You can't just make stuff like this up.

He didn’t claim that they asked for trades. Just that they asked for market value salaries and were subsequently traded.

Still a gross oversimplification to be sure.

 

[Sensung]

I don't see Chabot as a Karlsson replacement. I do see him as a top 10 pmd and quite possibly a top 5 pmd.

if what we hear about karlsson is all we can get then maybe we as fans over value him?

Teams are low balling our inexperienced GM because they feel he is under orders to move EK.

IF the "attach Ryan" to the EK deal are true, then the sharks smell blood in the water.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Teams are low balling our inexperienced GM because they feel he is under orders to move EK.

IF the "attach Ryan" to the EK deal are true, then the sharks smell blood in the water.

As I’ve said elsewhere, we are in another situation where the perception around the league is that we MUST trade a player.

True or not, such a perception has a very real effect on the value of the asset. It’s a problem.

 

[Boud]

You're responding to the poster who desperately wants to cheer for the Quebec City Senators/Nordiques. Of course he's going to pile on with the "bad market" bull****. Pay him no mind.



As for the question OP, you should've seen how horrible our first season was. All our hopes were pinned on finishing last (not hard to do) and selecting.....Alexandre Daigle over Chris freakin' Pronger. That was a rough few years. Then the bankruptcy, and uncertainty. Losing to ****ing Toronto every playoffs with a stacked roster....

Losing to Toronto with a stacked roster was much much much better than this.

 

[DueDiligence]

how many guys here were clamoring fora rebuild? this is in part what it might look like if they contime to move guys out.

How many wanted to see the young guys get a chance? you're going to get your wish.

Add in what we get for Cole we did ok moving Brassard.

The big issue is Karlsson. I'd like to know what happened in the dressing room incident. How was Karlsson involved? This business of the players being pissed off because we moved Turris is bs. We acquired a better player. if that trade disrupted the team then there is something wrong with the team. This is a business and they are pros. We moved a guy out and moved a better guy in. If that impacted the country club then it needed it.

It was Yost that reported it. He has an axe to grind with Ottawa and you can see it in the words he uses. Two weeks back he used the phrase "yet another rebuild in Ottawa" which is an outright inaccurate statement but there isn't anyone to edit what he writes to say you cannot write that because it isn't true. We sold in 2011. Kelly and Fisher. That was more of a retool. That's pretty much the only time in franchise history that we've moved out contracts at the deadline. Yost saying "yet another" is all you need to know about his thoughts on Ottawa. This is our first rebuild ever. and a lot of you guys wanted it.

I'd prefer we trade EK. We'll get a ton back. We've already got that high end pmd on board in Chabot and frankly having him take over our pp QB role I think will help fix part of what ails our pp.

The narrative on cheapness. There's some truth to it. thee is also some truth to the revenues and expenses being in line. We are around 20th in both. It'd be great if we had an owner that was prepared/able to spend an extra 15 every year. We don't. All this noise about no more of my money...how does that help?

Market strength. This is a challenging market. Businesses selling to the feds have no need to buy seasons. So we have a small season ticket base. we need a walk up crowd and we get it. probably better than any other market in the league. But we are a few thousand below selling out and we sell what we sell at lower prices. go look at the Forbes data on gate receipts and compare it to other Cdn teams. Our biggest employer in this town is the government and the white male....the guy sitting in the stands at games that is the primary target of ticket sellers...is slowly becoming an extinct species in government

Anyway....guys wanted a rebuild....seems like here it is...this is what it looks like....so why complain abut it? I personally didn't want a rebuild, I didn't think it was necessary but that's a different discussion

and I keep going back in my mind to the dressing room incident and I can imagine a range of behaviours from EK. We don't know what happened so it is all imagining but in some of the scenarios I can imagine, my reaction to it is he has to go.

For those of us who missed the "dressing room" incident can someone expand on what supposedly took place?

 

[Mingus Dew]

For those of us who missed the "dressing room" incident can someone expand on what supposedly took place?

Paraphrasing, but supposedly Dorion was having a meeting with the team in the dressing room and felt disrespected by a certain group of players. Talk of said players turning up the volume of the music while he speaking.

I guess the contention is that Karlsson had become openly insubordinate.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Rebuild wasn't the initial 'plan'. Duchene was an all in chip. Unfortunately the Sens are going all in for Dahlin so a rebuild was forced upon themselves.

This is why I find it so funny that 80% of the Sens forum is up in arms saying we never tried to build a winning team around EK. Such short memories...

 

[DueDiligence]

This is nothing new.
Hossa demanded (and got) market value. Traded.
Havlat asked for market value. Traded.
Chara asked for market value. Let walk as a FA.
Alfie.... stayed for years under market value. They never bothered to pay the man, so he left.

The only difference this time is everybody knows Karlsson is a sure-fire HOFer and if thats not enough to finally say "Ok fine. Market value is totally fair." then what is?

But the issue is that THIS YEAR Karlsson is not playing like a sure HOFer. And the concern is that his off year is do to injury and an operation that he might not fully bounce back from. In that case if Sens sign him to an 8 year $12 million deal and he is just good then the franchise is cooked for 10 years.
If he was playing like he did in last year's playoffs then for sure he'd be signed. But he isn't.