Ottawa/Detroit/New Jersey/Buffalo: Which team will breakout first?

[Jersey Fresh]

Hughes can't stay healthy, Stutzle is way more physical, has a higher compete level and is outproducing Hughes at the same age. This is the devils fans other excuse other than goaltending I see. Now it's blame the pp coach.

I wouldn't trade Stutzle for Hughes under any circumstances. Hughes has better linemates too. Hilarious concept that players points are worth less because they are on the pp.

LOL

Okay.

This is the first year Hughes has dealt with injuries and he'd be playing right now if there was any need to. "Higher compete level"...one of those vacuous things people say when they are trying to add to a list that means absolutely nothing.

Hughes has played a plurality of his time with Sharangovich and Mercer, and last year in the direct comparable to Stutzle, played with Sharangovich and Kuokkanen. Hardly all-stars. On the PP, where Stutzle scores a crazy proportion of his points, Stutzle plays with far more productive players.

Let's see if Stutzle puts up 1.15ppg next year - I'll take that bet.

I'm happy for you that you wouldn't trade Stutzle for Hughes. No Devils fan would either.

 

[NyQuil]

On the PP, where Stutzle scores a crazy proportion of his points, Stutzle plays with far more productive players.

So Ottawa's top forwards are more productive players than New Jersey's?

 

[Jersey Fresh]

So Ottawa's top forwards are more productive players than New Jersey's?

I'm assuming you think this is some kind of "gotcha" because I have to give you enough credit to think you can read a stat sheet, but this season that's definitely true, especially on the power play.

The point being made with that comment was obviously in response to him saying that Hughes "plays with better players", when on the PP where Stutzle has nearly half his production, he's playing with all of Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, and Chabot.

Also strikes me, when it's convenient to boost Stutzle Connor Brown is just some guy, but when it comes to Ottawa in general he's a 60-point two-way monster. Just thought that was funny.

 

[NyQuil]

I'm assuming you think this is some kind of "gotcha" because I have to give you enough credit to think you can read a stat sheet, but this season that's definitely true, especially on the power play.

The point being made with that comment was obviously in response to him saying that Hughes "plays with better players", when on the PP where Stutzle has nearly half his production, he's playing with all of Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, and Chabot.

Also strikes me, when it's convenient to boost Stutzle Connor Brown is just some guy, but when it comes to Ottawa in general he's a 60-point two-way monster. Just thought that was funny.

Well, seeing as the #1 PP unit is typically where the players with the highest skill level are found, I found the comment interesting.

I do think that Stutzle has less to work with on the second line (e.g. Formenton and Brown) than on those occasions when he's been able to play on a regular shift with Tkachuk or Batherson, but their chemistry with Norris is tough to give up.

When Joseph arrived, he did produce immediately and had some good games in the top six so that might give DJ Smith more options in terms of balancing the talent between the #1 and #2 lines. Unfortunately, it's a very limited sample of games due to injury.

It'll be interesting to see how the lines are drawn up to start next season.

In an ideal world, Formenton and Joseph would be productive third liners (who can step into the top six when required/injury replacements etc.). They are north-south speedsters who are likely more deadly in transition than in offensive zone cycle play or more static PP movement.

Some Senators fans have hopes that they can play a top six role but really I think Ottawa is better off building around a top nine as they won't likely have the generational talent that teams like Colorado, Edmonton and Toronto have.

Brown has the offensive IQ of a top six player but his finish could certainly be better. He's also a playmaker and Stutzle is primarily as well, so it's a bit redundant. They need a goal scorer on that second line to complement them better.

Brown is absolutely a second liner and has pretty much produced like one, as well as being an excellent penalty killer and defensive presence. You guys hate him because of some misconstrued comment about him and Bratt but he's a good player that I hope we hold on to for his veteran presence and impact all over the ice.

 

[tucker3434]

Poor Buffalo. I’d go with NJ. I like Hughes, Hischier and Hamilton. Get them a goalie and they’ll be in solid shape for the playoffs.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Well, seeing as the #1 PP unit is typically where the players with the highest skill level are found, I found the comment interesting.

I do think that Stutzle has less to work with on the second line (e.g. Formenton and Brown) than on those occasions when he's been able to play on a regular shift with Tkachuk or Batherson, but their chemistry with Norris is tough to give up.

When Joseph arrived, he did produce immediately and had some good games in the top six so that might give DJ Smith more options in terms of balancing the talent between the #1 and #2 lines. Unfortunately, it's a very limited sample of games due to injury.

It'll be interesting to see how the lines are drawn up to start next season.

The point was really just that any disadvantage Stutzle has 5on5 relative to Hughes (if there is one it's minimal, Hughes played a bit with Bratt and frankly they had very little chemistry) it's offset by playing on a functioning top PP unit. The Devils schematically have huge issues on special teams, but they also really haven't had a full unit all season with Hughes and Hamilton both out for extended periods. I just don't think it's accurate at all to blanket say Hughes plays with better players, even if I do really like Sharangovich. The hope next season is Holtz is ready and Mercer continues to improve.

 

[NyQuil]

The Devils schematically have huge issues on special teams, but they also really haven't had a full unit all season with Hughes and Hamilton both out for extended periods.

A problem we are very familiar with.

Batherson, Norris and Chabot have all been out for extended periods.

Hughes has played more games than Batherson, and Hamilton has played more games than Chabot.

I just don't think it's accurate at all to blanket say Hughes plays with better players, even if I do really like Sharangovich.

Well, either:

(a) Stutzle plays with better players, meaning that his production is due in part to his linemates on the PP and he's in a better situation than Hughes. At the same time, it also means that Ottawa has better top-end forwards than New Jersey as indicative by their PP production.

OR

(b) Stutzle doesn't play with better players, meaning that their forward corps are on par and that their production at their comparative stages of their career can be compared directly.

Personally, I think anyone claiming that New Jersey has better forwards than Ottawa but that the "system" is holding them back from producing on the PP is making a bit of a cop-out argument.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

A problem we are very familiar with.

Batherson, Norris and Chabot have all been out for extended periods.

Hughes has played more games than Batherson, and Hamilton has played more games than Chabot.



Well, either:

(a) Stutzle plays with better players, meaning that his production is due in part to his linemates on the PP and he's in a better situation than Hughes. At the same time, it also means that Ottawa has better top-end forwards than New Jersey as indicative by their PP production.

OR

(b) Stutzle doesn't play with better players, meaning that their forward corps are on par and that their production at their comparative stages of their career can be compared directly.

Personally, I think anyone claiming that New Jersey has better forwards than Ottawa but that the "system" is holding them back from producing on the PP is a bit of a cop-out.

Number one, and in light of your glowing review of Connor Brown, the idea that Stutzle plays with slugs as intimated by the guy I originally responded to, is obviously overstated. Playing with Formenton and Brown at even strength is more than enough to produce there - that his production is pretty mediocre 5on5 tells me something else is going on. Ottawa's top-end forwards have definitely been more productive this season as I already said and Stutzle has clearly reaped the benefits of that. Meanwhile, New Jersey has still scored ~20 more goals than Ottawa this season, so I think self-limiting to "top forwards" in the context of this thread is more than a little missing the point.

Stutzle's production and Hughes last season can definitely be compared. Hughes production (0.55ppg) with worse players in two rookies in Sharangovich and Kuokkanen, almost exclusively at even strength, and with elite transition numbers, compared to Stutzle's production (0.74ppg) with better linemates 5on5 and nearly half of his production on the PP with better players. Up to you to evaluate both and make your choice.

Like I said, let's see where both of their production goes next year - I'd be willing to bet Stutzle doesn't match Hughes production this season. And I can already see the posturing about Hughes only doing it in 49 games - I'm also more than willing to bet Hughes keeps up and even improves on his production next year.

As for the Devils "system" holding them back, if you watched the team it's really not up for debate. You can call it a cop-out if you want, I get it, but you don't somehow turn two transition players with some of the best zone entries in the league in Bratt and Hughes into a PP that can barely enter the zone and then stand like statues once set up by design without a massive deficiency in coaching. Mark Recchi is out of his depth and is now responsible for the two most SH goal prone PPs in NHL history in both Pittsburgh and now New Jersey.

 

[Oneiro]

Last night the full complement of Sens went to OT against a 1/4 of an AHL squad and no Hughes/Hischier.

Not saying it means anything in garbage time but...pretty funny considering how "superior" those OTT forwards are.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

None of us are under any illusion about our team. We have 3-4 core pieces on the roster currently and a few coming in next year. We have confidence in Yzerman to right the ship. We think Blashill is terrible and him going out should help. We didn’t expect to be blown out as much as we did but this season went just as expected overall.

Not a single Wings fan has said we are in the lead or l better than Ottawa. All we have argued is that we’re on a similar level…lol.

Lol, you need to talk to your boy Pavels, then.

Ottawa will need to add to even get to the level Detroit is at this season, not to mention pass them.

The poll isn't really asking only which team will make the playoffs first though. It's about who will get in, and stay in. Who will cement themselves as a perennial competitor first.

If you are focusing 100% on next season, I understand your position a little better, but I still think you've made very little attempt to understand Detroit's situation. Harping on their goal differential or head-to-head record vs. random teams is meaningless for actually judging what they will be going forward. You don't think Yzerman will try to adress Detroit's defense and goaltending this offseason?

 

[NyQuil]

Last night the full complement of Sens went to OT against a 1/4 of an AHL squad and no Hughes/Hischier.

Not saying it means anything in garbage time but...pretty funny considering how "superior" those OTT forwards are.

Well, they did win the game and swept the Devils this season.

 

[NyQuil]

Like I said, let's see where both of their production goes next year - I'd be willing to bet Stutzle doesn't match Hughes production this season. And I can already see the posturing about Hughes only doing it in 49 games - I'm also more than willing to bet Hughes keeps up and even improves on his production next year.

That's why this thread is so interesting if people didn't get so personally offended all the time.

Stutzle has only improved on a game by game basis since changing positions so Senators fans are eagerly awaiting what an entire season might allow him to do.

Should make for interesting discussions next season.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Lol, you need to talk to your boy Pavels, then.

Alright, I’ll disagree with him that we’re ahead. We’re not.

Not sure what the issue with Pavels second comment is though? It’s not outlandish to think our core might be better built for perennial success than Ottawa’s. Doesn’t mean we think we’re better now.

 

[TBF1972]

I'm assuming you think this is some kind of "gotcha" because I have to give you enough credit to think you can read a stat sheet, but this season that's definitely true, especially on the power play.

The point being made with that comment was obviously in response to him saying that Hughes "plays with better players", when on the PP where Stutzle has nearly half his production, he's playing with all of Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris, and Chabot.

Also strikes me, when it's convenient to boost Stutzle Connor Brown is just some guy, but when it comes to Ottawa in general he's a 60-point two-way monster. Just thought that was funny.

Connor Brown is the comparable to Jesper Bratt.

I just wonder, who are the new Jersey forwards, which are better, than what Stutzle has to play with. Bratt is actually the Devils best wing and he was not a constant linemate of Hughes.

 

[NjdPass]

As a Devil fan......I want to say them. But, I still think they are far from contending.

Yes we score a lot but that is due to the FWD talent. However, coaching, D, and goaltending has been historically bad. Our goaltending is bad, but Severson turning the puck over in the slot every shift doesnt help.

I do think though with the right coach and better goaltending will sure things up. Just look at the NYR, they are a perfect example.

I think the difference here is the speed factor. Devils are absolutely the fastest team on this list. If they have a full lineup and decent systems.......they are hard to play against.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Alright, I’ll disagree with him that we’re ahead. We’re not.

Not sure what the issue with Pavels second comment is though? It’s not outlandish to think our core might be better built for perennial success than Ottawa’s. Doesn’t mean we think we’re better now.

Nah, he saying yall will be perennial playoff team first. Nothing about better.

It's about who will get in, and stay in. Who will cement themselves as a perennial competitor first.

Can you read it more clearly now, brother?

 

[NyQuil]

As for the Devils "system" holding them back, if you watched the team it's really not up for debate. You can call it a cop-out if you want, I get it, but you don't somehow turn two transition players with some of the best zone entries in the league in Bratt and Hughes into a PP that can barely enter the zone and then stand like statues once set up by design without a massive deficiency in coaching. Mark Recchi is out of his depth and is now responsible for the two most SH goal prone PPs in NHL history in both Pittsburgh and now New Jersey.

Well, if you watched Stutzle with Formenton and Brown, you would see that the chemistry just isn't there, regardless of their individual skillsets.

It explains the "mediocre 5 on 5 production" that you are referring to leading you to speculate that "something else must be going on".

This is what else is going on.

Stutzle thrives on creating time and space and maintaining zone time with puck possession while Formenton and to a lesser extent Brown are direct "go to the net as fast as possible and throw the puck there" type players.

Many Ottawa fans would like Stutzle to play with one or both of Batherson and Tkachuk but as was said earlier, Norris is a good triggerman for the more creative Batherson and surprisingly skilled playmaker Tkachuk so it's a bit of a challenge in optimizing the top six.

I'll certainly grant you your "systemic" issues with the PP as holding back Hughes if you're going to concede that Stutzle is not playing with the best guys to optimize his skill set either when it comes to even-strength play.

 

[EichHart]

If Levi signs with Buffalo I'd say a good chance it might be us. But until we solve the goalie issue it won't be.

 

[stempniaksen]

Is it a cop out to say whoever fixes their goaltending issues first? Cause that seems like far and away the biggest issue holding these teams back (save maybe Detroit who are probably a couple years behind in their build).

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Is it a cop out to say whoever fixes their goaltending issues first? Cause that seems like far and away the biggest issue holding these teams back (save maybe Detroit who are probably a couple years behind in their build).

For Ottawa and Buffalo, sure. Devils need to fix that putrid defense too. Which could very well be the case in a couple years when Hughes and Jiri/Nemec break into their scene.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

For Ottawa and Buffalo, sure. Devils need to fix that putrid defense too. Which could very well be the case in a couple years when Hughes and Jiri/Nemec break into their scene.

Ottawa has gotten league average goaltending. They aren't near the bottom of the league because of goaltending...

 

[Pavels Dog]

Lol, you need to talk to your boy Pavels, then.

You realize people are individuals right? We don't hold fanbase meetings where we go over talking points.
My comment wasn't made in complete seriousness, it was more of a reply to the Sens fans that argued that their team is so much better than the Wings right now, even though the Wings have been ahead in the standings all season long. In reality, they are very close (as the current standings show).

 

[RedHawkDown]

You realize people are individuals right? We don't hold fanbase meetings where we go over talking points.
My comment wasn't made in complete seriousness, it was more of a reply to the Sens fans that argued that their team is so much better than the Wings right now, even though the Wings have been ahead in the standings all season long. In reality, they are very close (as the current standings show).

It’s incredible the amount of nitpicking of our comments going on here whereas Ottawa fans have been claiming Shane mother flipping Pinto was a top 6 C loss , lmao

Love Ottawa’s players and they’ve got a good future but this thread is such a clusterf***

 

[jbeck5]

It’s incredible the amount of nitpicking of our comments going on here whereas Ottawa fans have been claiming Shane mother flipping Pinto was a top 6 C loss , lmao

Love Ottawa’s players and they’ve got a good future but this thread is such a clusterf***

I don't know why you keep going on about pinto. No one is claiming he's a star. Guys like batherson or Chabot or Norris being out were much bigger losses.


Pinto was playing top 6 and went down to injury. That's a fact. Doesn't make him a star, but doesn't make someone wrong for mentioning what position he had on the team when he went out to injury. You're really obsessing over it for no reason.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Sure. It’s probably good to just drop This discussion. It’s gone in circles
We’ll see how the next few years go
Personally got my money on BUF

I don't know why you keep going on about pinto. No one is claiming he's a star. Guys like batherson or Chabot or Norris being out were much bigger losses.


Pinto was playing top 6 and went down to injury. That's a fact. Doesn't make him a star, but doesn't make someone wrong for mentioning what position he had on the team when he went out to injury. You're really obsessing over it for no reason