Other Chicago & General Sports Thread LVI: Bulls Draft Lottery Watch

[Rooh]

Currently Bagley is raw and a lot more athleticism - motor. He still needs to build up his skill level which he could do, but the Bulls are looking for the franchise #1 guy and Doncic already has the unbelievable skill and he's only going to continue building upon that.

Basically is Bagley's athletic profile more transcendent than Doncic skill level?

Is Bagley's skill level a stronger "weakness" than Doncic athleticism?

Is Bagley's fluidity, motor and elite athleticism for a 6'11 Center rarer than Doncic's height/size for a guard?

I'm giving Doncic the edge, but again they are both upper tier prospects right now.

 

[piteus]

Currently Bagley is raw and a lot more athleticism - motor. He still needs to build up his skill level which he could do, but the Bulls are looking for the franchise #1 guy and Doncic already has the unbelievable skill and he's only going to continue building upon that.

Basically is Bagley's athletic profile more transcendent than Doncic skill level?

Is Bagley's skill level a stronger "weakness" than Doncic athleticism?

Is Bagley's fluidity, elite athleticism for a 6'11 Center rarer than Doncic's height/size for a guard?

I'm giving Doncic the edge.

I don't know. However, what I do know is that you can't measure a players "intangibles" vs. one's physical assets. They tried it this year and look what happened? Fultz vs. Tatum. Even Ball with his incredible "intangibles" is struggling (and I'm a Ball fan).

Doncic can't defend quick point guards. That's a major issue. He should be okay defending the 3 though.

The NBA draft is simple. They favor athletic players with height / length / skill. They have the higher upside. That's a fact.

* Doncic is 6'7" with a good shot, cerebral, great intangibles. High basketball IQ.
* Bagley is 6'11" with freak athleticism and length. High basketball IQ.

Add to the fact that Bagley averaged 30ppg / 15rpg against top US programs highlights his dominance. Doncic is also doing very well in Europe against top competition. However, the athletes he will face in the NBA is vastly different than Europe. They are longer, stronger, faster, and more skilled. We've seen how Bagley dominated against future NBA lottery picks. We haven't seen it from Doncic YET. They are both the same age (1 month apart).

Doncic might be great. No one knows. However, there are other players who are 6'7" cerebral and skilled. How many 6'11" athletic freaks with high basketball IQs are around?

How many cerebral 6'7" superstar guards are in the NBA? James Harden (6'4")? He's probably the closest. Steph is cerebral but no one in the world can shoot like him. Kyrie is incredibly quick and cerebral. Is Doncic the next Devin Booker? The next Dragic? Doncic certainly isn't the next Simmons or Greek Freak.

Look at Bagley. He's a 6'11" athletic freak. There not many players that skilled, that long, that athletic, that strong, with high basketball IQ. At this point, it's as simple as scarcity. You don't see talent like Bagley very often.

Furthermore, Bagley will sell tickets. Not many Chicagoans are going to care about a cerebral 6'7" point forward from Slovenia. Ultimately, the NBA is still a business. We're still trying to convince people that Markkanen is really good AND he played at Arizona!

I've been objective with my opinions on these players. I have not fallen in love with any prospect. The second Porter hurt his back, I moved on. I've soured on Bamba and Ayton for now. I wasn't even that high in Bagley recently, until he dominated other lottery picks. I watched a bit of Doncic recently. He's going to be a good NBA player. However, his upside isn't what Bagley's is. Doncic paired with Markkanen will be fun offensively. However, together they'd be a disaster as defensive wings. The Bulls have to shoot for the moon. They need superstars. Doncic might have potential to get there ... but at 6'11 with athleticism and basketball IQ, Bagley is far more likely. The draft is about potential / percentages.

 

[Rooh]

Fultz/Ball vs. Tatum shouldn't be comparable, Fultz was athletic and long and Ball clearly had no ability to create his own shot he also had a very small frame despite being 6'6.

Doncic will be playing SF if he is selected by the Bulls, he will be guarding 3s while Dunn and Lavine guard up top. Doncic significantly impacts Lavine's game as well, If a team puts there most athletic and best perimeter defender on Doncic at the 3 then they are putting lesser players on a fast/athletic scorer in Lavine.

Bagley/Doncic are viewed as the 1A 1B, the NBA GMs will most likely just select one based on the fit at that point. We have Lauri and Bagley's primary position is PF.

The concern with Bagley is his skill level. Simmons and KD either had transcendent shooting or passing for there size, like I said before Bagley is a prospect I have never seen before, instead of having an elite skill his physical attributes get him his numbers, maybe the motor and rebounding is his elite skill?..idk if that's enough. We could draft Bagley and he never develops the skill and he turns into Stoudemire 2.0 which obviously is still an All-Star player, but we are looking for a franchise player and that's not it. Drafting Bagley your taking a big risk and is it worth it when you have Doncic right there?

Chicago already sells tickets, we are still #1 in attendance with the worst team in the NBA. Also I'm not sure how adding a hyped up Euro from Slovenia wouldn't boost our following even more. Just like Markkanen all the fans from Slovenia/Europe will start tuning in and going to games to watch there guy play, Markkanen the hype was obviously not as big because he was the 7th pick and had 0 hype before.

Every one of these prospects weakness right now is the defensive end with the exception of Bamba and Jackson they all are average to bad. Now Doncic and Bagley both have the highest upside on that end because of the effort they are able to bring. However, Bagley will be far more vital to a teams defense than Doncic who is playing a lesser position on that end.

 

[Jussi]

I just saw that Markkanen has a little pre-game ritual with a team mate during the player intro. He pretends to fire a slapshot at him.

 

[LDF]

Fultz/Ball vs. Tatum shouldn't be comparable, Fultz was athletic and long and Ball clearly had no ability to create his own shot he also had a very small frame despite being 6'6.

Doncic will be playing SF if he is selected by the Bulls, he will be guarding 3s while Dunn and Lavine guard up top. Doncic significantly impacts Lavine's game as well, If a team puts there most athletic and best perimeter defender on Doncic at the 3 then they are putting lesser players on a fast/athletic scorer in Lavine.

Bagley/Doncic are viewed as the 1A 1B, the NBA GMs will most likely just select one based on the fit at that point. We have Lauri and Bagley's primary position is PF.

The concern with Bagley is his skill level. Simmons and KD either had transcendent shooting or passing for there size, like I said before Bagley is a prospect I have never seen before, instead of having an elite skill his physical attributes get him his numbers, maybe the motor and rebounding is his elite skill?..idk if that's enough. We could draft Bagley and he never develops the skill and he turns into Stoudemire 2.0 which obviously is still an All-Star player, but we are looking for a franchise player and that's not it. Drafting Bagley your taking a big risk and is it worth it when you have Doncic right there?

Chicago already sells tickets, we are still #1 in attendance with the worst team in the NBA. Also I'm not sure how adding a hyped up Euro from Slovenia wouldn't boost our following even more. Just like Markkanen all the fans from Slovenia/Europe will start tuning in and going to games to watch there guy play, Markkanen the hype was obviously not as big because he was the 7th pick and had 0 hype before.

Every one of these prospects weakness right now is the defensive end with the exception of Bamba and Jackson they all are average to bad. Now Doncic and Bagley both have the highest upside on that end because of the effort they are able to bring. However, Bagley will be far more vital to a teams defense than Doncic who is playing a lesser position on that end.

ref Doncic you bring up an interesting point and one i was going to write about tomorrow. however since you brought it up, here goes.

Doncic and Bagley plays in the 2 best leagues in the world, however while we, in America knows of the ncaa and can gauge the talent level there. the opposite is true that we can not gauge nor see the play in the other league.

Doncic is considered very talented as an offensive player, but and that is a big but the point of contention is his defense, esp his lateral movement. now this skill can not be taught as a player quickness on a court can not be taught. it is in this area i am not being sold on his success in the next level, which is the NBA, the league where only the elite players with elite skills set separate themselves from everyone else.

so if Doncic is considered weak in his lateral speed and defense in a 2nd rate league, how does one expect him to be the #1 player pick and if the Bulls were picking, should select him.

 

[LDF]

One big issue with Ayton is his motor. He doesn't always try that hard. It's the only reason his defense is mocked by some college basketball analysts this year. He might grow out of that or it can continue. Who knows? Investing millions on 18-20 year olds is always a huge gamble.

the key problem with Ayton was his motor and that was evident during his senior yr in HS. that is where all these scouting rpt's are from, when he was in HS. has he change since coming into college, yes and i will wait and see to what level he has change. rpt's of that kind will come out as the ncaa tourny starts. i will still acknowledge that you are correct about his motor skills. this reminds me of the "Big Fish in a Little Pond" cliche. poor excuse to fall back on, yes and i will also say that he is still a hs'er who is learning the hard lessons in life that will make him a man.

now for the flip side, if you would have use what is known about Alton, his small hands. small hands for a person / player his size and the natural hand strength that comes with his hands. it is here that he will be at a disadvantage. he has lost grip on the ball esp when going up to the basket or when a hard, surprise pass goes his way.

the last part is his individual drive that needs to be kick started, but nothing like it was in hs.

 

[LDF]

I don't know. However, what I do know is that you can't measure a players "intangibles" vs. one's physical assets. They tried it this year and look what happened? Fultz vs. Tatum. Even Ball with his incredible "intangibles" is struggling (and I'm a Ball fan).

Doncic can't defend quick point guards. That's a major issue. He should be okay defending the 3 though.

The NBA draft is simple. They favor athletic players with height / length / skill. They have the higher upside. That's a fact.

* Doncic is 6'7" with a good shot, cerebral, great intangibles. High basketball IQ.
* Bagley is 6'11" with freak athleticism and length. High basketball IQ.

Add to the fact that Bagley averaged 30ppg / 15rpg against top US programs highlights his dominance. Doncic is also doing very well in Europe against top competition. However, the athletes he will face in the NBA is vastly different than Europe. They are longer, stronger, faster, and more skilled. We've seen how Bagley dominated against future NBA lottery picks. We haven't seen it from Doncic YET. They are both the same age (1 month apart).

Doncic might be great. No one knows. However, there are other players who are 6'7" cerebral and skilled. How many 6'11" athletic freaks with high basketball IQs are around?

How many cerebral 6'7" superstar guards are in the NBA? James Harden (6'4")? He's probably the closest. Steph is cerebral but no one in the world can shoot like him. Kyrie is incredibly quick and cerebral. Is Doncic the next Devin Booker? The next Dragic? Doncic certainly isn't the next Simmons or Greek Freak.

Look at Bagley. He's a 6'11" athletic freak. There not many players that skilled, that long, that athletic, that strong, with high basketball IQ. At this point, it's as simple as scarcity. You don't see talent like Bagley very often.

Furthermore, Bagley will sell tickets. Not many Chicagoans are going to care about a cerebral 6'7" point forward from Slovenia. Ultimately, the NBA is still a business. We're still trying to convince people that Markkanen is really good AND he played at Arizona!

I've been objective with my opinions on these players. I have not fallen in love with any prospect. The second Porter hurt his back, I moved on. I've soured on Bamba and Ayton for now. I wasn't even that high in Bagley recently, until he dominated other lottery picks. I watched a bit of Doncic recently. He's going to be a good NBA player. However, his upside isn't what Bagley's is. Doncic paired with Markkanen will be fun offensively. However, together they'd be a disaster as defensive wings. The Bulls have to shoot for the moon. They need superstars. Doncic might have potential to get there ... but at 6'11 with athleticism and basketball IQ, Bagley is far more likely. The draft is about potential / percentages.

i like you was not high on Bagley, but when Porter got hurt. i started to look around. it was fri, i believe when the tourny was played and the Bagley easily school, the other surprise big Bamba.

the thing is, Bagley talent level is still growing and he is still developing.

NBA Draft watch: What Texas vs. Duke revealed about Marvin Bagley III, Mohamed Bamba

 

[Rooh]

ref Doncic you bring up an interesting point and one i was going to write about tomorrow. however since you brought it up, here goes.

Doncic and Bagley plays in the 2 best leagues in the world, however while we, in America knows of the ncaa and can gauge the talent level there. the opposite is true that we can not gauge nor see the play in the other league.

Doncic is considered very talented as an offensive player, but and that is a big but the point of contention is his defense, esp his lateral movement. now this skill can not be taught as a player quickness on a court can not be taught. it is in this area i am not being sold on his success in the next level, which is the NBA, the league where only the elite players with elite skills set separate themselves from everyone else.

so if Doncic is considered weak in his lateral speed and defense in a 2nd rate league, how does one expect him to be the #1 player pick and if the Bulls were picking, should select him.

He does have slower lateral speed but he is a good defender right now in the Euroleague because of his I.Q and effort. Now I expect he will go from good in the euroleague to about Curry -Harden level which is average to very slightly negative. The good thing is Doncic Is a guard and he doesn't affect the defense nearly as much as a big would. So Bagley and Ayton being negative defenders in the NBA would be very bad for a teams defense. You always want a good defensive C or at least PF, Lauri is currently an average defensive player I expect the same from Doncic.

Also I forgot to add to my last post that yes Bagley is averaging 30/15 against some upper tier college teams and playing against some other top prospects, but Doncic is playing vs actual pros that have played in the NBA and teams far better than any of those college teams. Doncic made 1st team and along with Dragic led Slovenia to the European title vs current NBA players..Gasol bros, Lauri, Porzingis, Rubio, Bellinelli, Valanciunas, Fournier and the list goes on.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

First Illini loss of the Underwood era. All downhill from here.

Easy, I'm not that bad.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Terrible loss, and another NIT season ahead.

 

[Bubba88]

Just watch Bagley for an entire game. He's the only reason Dook is #1. It's not about a position with Bagley. He can play anywhere. There's no way Ayton can stop Bagley. Bamba tried ... and got schooled. Bagley is a freak. Bagley is going for 30ppg and 15rpg against top competition with ease ... and Bagley hasn't even developed a right hand or jumper. Imagine when he puts that in his arsenal.

Marvin Bagley is now the consensus #1 American prospect. Remember, I was not a fan early. Well, watch him play ... and you'll see why I changed my mind. He's an alien playing amongst boys.

As for Doncic, he might be great. However, NBA teams almost always takes the longer / athletic player who's proved themselves in college over the smaller / cerebral international player. 6'11" athletic freaks with high basketball IQ don't grow on trees. 6'7" cerebral high basketball IQ / good shooting players are not as rare. That's reality.

I have no problem with Doncic ... but how are you going to play Markkanen and Doncic on the wings together? Doncic will not be guarding PGs in the NBA. He will be guarding 3s. That puts Markkanen on an athletic wing, which is not optimal. It only works if Markkanen gets strong enough to play the stretch 5 AND the Bulls draft another athletic wing to compensate.

Defensively, Bagley can play the 3,4, and 5. Markkanen can stretch the floor for Bagley. It will work on both sides of the floor.

I get it, you fall in love with Bagley. He is a bit short to Play C in the NBA. He won't Play 4 here with Lauri on the roster. Bagley has no shot and his Team isn't bad. I can't see Bagley defending a guy like Embid or Towns. They'll eat him alive.

Doncic is the real deal. No reason why it shouldn't translate to the NBA. Bagley has some questions and his IQ isn't on par with Doncics.
Ayton is in the mix, but he needs Coaching.

Porter would be my #2 but that back injury sets him back for sure.

Bamba is behind them, Bamba hasn't had much of a Chance going up against Ayton too. The difference with Ayton and Bagley is the midrange game and helping out on the wings. You see him there more than enough Setting up Screens.

 

[IU Hawks fan]