Speculation: Offseason Thread #13: Running out of title ideas (Mod post #71)

[Gardner McKay]

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[silverfish]

Exactly, but the issue is that an extremely large section of fans post these charts as if they're directly comparable and context is irrelevant because numbers are numbers, which is obviously insane.

Can't remember a single time someone has looked at a HERO chart and used solely that as a basis of determining whether one player was better than another.

I forget what silverfish posted a year or so ago regarding the zone starts, but Rundblad was easily the most sheltered Blackhawk's defenseman by a wide margin. He started almost 70% of his shifts in the offensive zone, and as an offensive defenseman playing with those teammates, he should have good shot-attempt based metrics. His most common partner was Duncan Keith, and his most common linemates were Shaw and Bickell, who didn't score with him on the ice. Most of Rundblad's offensive production came with Kane, Sharp, and Richards on the ice.

Is Rundblad a by-product of those players and starting a ton of his shifts in the offensive zone, or is he actually helping drive possession?

My views about player usage have fluctuated wildly. Learning something new every day. Doing my best not to pose anything as fact as I know I can wake up tomorrow to a new thought or development that proves me wrong.

Re: Rundblad specifically though since this is his conversation... I suppose Patty Kane is also sheltered, and perhaps he wouldn't be this scoring machine he was if he had 'harder' minutes?

As of right now, I'd say player usage and how it actually effects a players performance is something I don't know enough about to comment on definitively.

 

[Mikos87]

On Rundblad, maybe another team gives him a look, but he's Euroleague bound imo.

Classic case of a big ice hockey player that's not suited for a North American game.

He's soft, will turn pucks over when physically challenged, will not battle guys in front of the net.

He does however, have one of the silkiest lateral strides I've ever seen. If you watched him in Skelleftea, he would toy with guys skating sideways and then make a move or two to juke guys out.

Didn't translate well to smaller ice but it was the hockey equivalent to a crossover in basketball.

 

[NYR Viper]

On Rundblad, maybe another team gives him a look, but he's Euroleague bound imo.

Classic case of a big ice hockey player that's not suited for a North American game.

He's soft, will turn pucks over when physically challenged, will not battle guys in front of the net.

He does however, have one of the silkiest lateral strides I've ever seen. If you watched him in Skelleftea, he would toy with guys skating sideways and then make a move or two to juke guys out.

Didn't translate well to smaller ice but it was the hockey equivalent to a crossover in basketball.

I think he will supplant himself as a nice bottom-pairing guy when partnered with someone like McIlrath.

 

[aufheben]

I actually felt bad for Rundblad during the playoffs, he looked absolutely clueless.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Can't remember a single time someone has looked at a HERO chart and used solely that as a basis of determining whether one player was better than another.



My views about player usage have fluctuated wildly. Learning something new every day. Doing my best not to pose anything as fact as I know I can wake up tomorrow to a new thought or development that proves me wrong.

Re: Rundblad specifically though since this is his conversation... I suppose Patty Kane is also sheltered, and perhaps he wouldn't be this scoring machine he was if he had 'harder' minutes?

As of right now, I'd say player usage and how it actually effects a players performance is something I don't know enough about to comment on definitively.

There's a very prominent poster on this boards who seems to base his opinion on players entirely on charts.


And you don't have to try and convince me of their relevance, I'm a stats guy. However, you're crazy if you think everyone is as measured and reasonable as you (or other good posters like Raspewtin) when it comes to incorporating the charts and stats into their analysis. Sadly, there are large swaths of fans specifically on HF and twitter who spout numbers and post charts accompanied by arrogant comments, without even fully understanding who those stats came to be, their significance and the role context plays.

 

[Inferno]

There's a very prominent poster on this boards who seems to base his opinion on players entirely on charts.


And you don't have to try and convince me of their relevance, I'm a stats guy. However, you're crazy if you think everyone is as measured and reasonable as you when it comes to incorporating the charts and stats into their analysis. Sadly, there are large swaths of fans specifically on HF and twitter who spout numbers and post charts accompanied by arrogant comments, without even fully understanding who those stats came to be, their significance and the role context plays.

not sure if youre talking about me...i do like them a lot thats for sure, but no i dont think they are the be all end all...i made a post about Evander Kane showing that while his hero chart is strong, his WOWOY doesnt look as rosy.

hero charts need more info on them, wowoy, zs, qoc, qot, etc, etc, etc

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

not sure if youre talking about me...i do like them a lot thats for sure, but no i dont think they are the be all end all...i made a post about Evander Kane showing that while his hero chart is strong, his WOWOY doesnt look as rosy.

hero charts need more info on them, wowoy, zs, qoc, qot, etc, etc, etc

I was not referring to you, no. And i agree, there needs to be more information on those charts if they're going to be posted as direct comparisons.

I see it a lot on twitter. 3rd pair D with sheltered minutes HERO chart vs Top pair D playing in all situations with toughest matchups. Then TONS of people posting their charts side by side as factual proof that the 3rd pair player is a better player than the 1st pair player. That's a problem with putting this info out there, people who don't understand the significance of the numbers but also people who don't understand the limitations of them.

For example, Derick Brassard is in no way shape or form a better defensive center than Derek Stepan, and yet that is an opinion stated as fact by a user on HF who posted their HERO charts as proof.

 

[Mikos87]

I think he will supplant himself as a nice bottom-pairing guy when partnered with someone like McIlrath.

Not with this guy. Teams ogled at his skill level but every single one passed on him after a while.

He's also very thin... The guy can go back to Europe and be star over there.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Continue.

Revenge of Dan Boyle, Journos Beware

 

[SA16]

Here are my quick thoughts on player usage as in regards to a players ability.

I do not care if a player is extremely sheltered. If he puts up a good performance with that usage then the logical solution is play him in that role. Take Yandle for instance. He is extremely effective when you give him lots of offensive zone starts. Using that logic to say he is not a good defenseman and can't handle a different role makes no sense. Don't play him in that role. Or he doesn't play on the PK and all dmen need to PK. Well why do you want him to PK? His skills are best used at creating offense and the PP. You want to tire him out doing other things because it's just expected that that is what a defenseman does? It's basic coaching. Put your players in a position to succeed. Just because Yandle is great in that particular role doesn't mean it's an easy role or any other player can handle it as well.

 

[Inferno]

my thoughts on Rundblad is that he'll probably be a good 7th or 8th defenseman.

we have enough cap space to have 8...why not have Rundblad?

 

[RangerBoy]

Jimmy Vesey, LW, Buffalo Sabres

Once the calendar flips to August, this negotiation will become the focus of the hockey world. Harvard's Vesey, the reigning Hobey Baker Award winner, is going to test free agency on Aug. 15 and teams will be lining up to take their best shot.

The plan now is for teams to visit the Boston offices of his agent, Peter Fish, and Vesey will spend two days listening to their proposals before zeroing in on a decision.

What's the biggest consideration?

"The fit, the city itself, the coach -- those are all kind of key factors," Fish said when we chatted Tuesday. "What does the team look like in the future? Will they have a chance to win in the next two or three years? Those are all factors."

The Sabres, Bruins and Maple Leafs have long been considered the favorites, while Scott Powers of The Athletic reported that the Blackhawks will be on the short list and that GM Stan Bowman has been taking in Vesey's summer league games.

Another team that should be considered in the running? The New York Rangers. Out of respect for the Sabres, who acquired the rights to Vesey in June, Fish declined to get into specifics about other teams, but he did confirm a strong working relationship with Rangers GM Jeff Gorton. The Rangers have famously moved first-round picks in trades, and adding Vesey would be like getting one back.

"I know Jeff very well. I have a lot of respect for Jeff," Fish said. "Certainly, whenever I have a free agent in any aspect of hockey, Jeff would be one of the first people I call."

Fish also represented Chris Drury, who is the Rangers' director of player development, and remains close with Drury.

It's going to be an interesting couple of days in Boston.

"This isn't your ordinary situation," Fish said. "I've never seen any player of this magnitude in recent memory that is a free agent on this day."

http://espn.go.com/blog/craig-custance/insider/post?id=8053

Jimmy Vesey scouting report from 2011

11. Jimmy Vesey, LW Belmont Hill Academy (Massachusetts)- The son of former NHL forward Jim Vesey is an impressive scoring winger coming out of New England this season. Although he told B2011DW that his team didn't keep stats this season per the suggestion of the captain and voted on by the team, Vesey scored about 28 goals for Belmont Hill, who advanced to the large school semi-final before falling to eventual champion Westminster School. He's a pretty good skater who could stand to pick up a first step or two, but has good straight-line speed and is a shifty, elusive guy when he has the puck on his stick. He has excellent hockey sense and is one of those guys who always seems to be around the puck when you watch him. He has good hands, but admittedly in the semi-final game, seemed to let the pressure get to him, as he was unable to finish several chances in close. He had a much stronger offensive performance in the Beantown Classic exhibition tournament a couple of weeks later, making a lot happen on a line with fellow prep schooler Nick Bligh. Some scouts have said Vesey is soft, but we didn't see any of that. If anything, he is willing to initiate contact and make some hits, but at 6-2, 185 is still growing into his body and improving his strength. Vesey is a hard worker and he gets a lot of that from his dad who came from very humble roots to make himself into an NHL player after a stellar collegiate career at Merrimack College in the mid-80s. It looks like Vesey will not be back in prep next season, and his situation is up in the air in terms of where he'll end up as numerous USHL teams are interested. He will be at Harvard in the fall of 2012. This kid is a legitimate sleeper in the draft- we've heard him described as a poor man's Charlie Coyle and we have no issue with that assessment.

http://bruins2011draftwatch.blogspot.com/search/label/Jimmy Vesey

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

God I'll be so hyped if they land Vesey but I can't get my hopes up.

 

[NewLife]

Okey I'd no clue Drury had been named to the director of player development. Good for him. But who does Mr Fish represent?

 

[GAGLine]

Okey I'd no clue Drury had been named to the director of player development. Good for him. But who does Mr Fish represent?

He's Vesey's agent. He was also Drury's agent.

 

[NewLife]

He's Vesey's agent. He was also Drury's agent.

Oh well didn't it said so.

 

[bernmeister]

http://espn.go.com/blog/craig-custance/insider/post?id=8053

Jimmy Vesey scouting report from 2011



http://bruins2011draftwatch.blogspot.com/search/label/Jimmy Vesey

"The fit, the city itself, the coach -- those are all kind of key factors," Fish said when we chatted Tuesday. "What does the team look like in the future? Will they have a chance to win in the next two or three years? Those are all factors."

We should friggin can AV now before his sorry ass costs us Vesey.
Everything else is good or looks like it can be made to fit...

 

[RangerBoy]

Drury has played a key role with Buchnevich. Drury went to Russia at least once to see Buchnevich. The Rangers have Buchnevich training in Connecticut at Prentiss. Kreider is also there. Jim Cerny interviewed Drury at the prospects camp. Drury said I am just a phone call away if Buchnevich needs something.

Vesey skates at Foxboro with the Hayes brother. Keith Yandle skates there too.

 

[haohmaru]

Vesey would make Gorton's offseason stellar. Not holding my breath, though

 

[Irishguy42]

If we don't get Vesey, I would be okay with Di Pauli

 

[Mac n Gs]

Let's get both Vesey and DiPauli

 

[Irishguy42]

Let's get both Vesey and DiPauli

I won't say no to that

 

[RangerBoy]

The two Vesey agents are BU guys.

Peter Fish graduated in 1989.

Peter Donatelli was in Drury's class. They played together for 4 years. Class of 1998.

http://globalhockey.net/about.php

 

[Mikos87]

The two Vesey agents are BU guys.

Peter Fish graduated in 1989.

Peter Donatelli was in Drury's class. They played together for 4 years. Class of 1998.

http://globalhockey.net/about.php

Nice! Nice! Let's see if any of these connections pan out.