Off season news & stuff

[Fear]

I also thought this line was silly

I mean I get the concern but his youth is the driving force as to why it's not the end of the world. Young guys struggle sometimes.

I think his argument was that Larkin has been bad more often than good. If you split up his career so far by half season, it goes good, bad, bad, meh.

The million dollar question: Is he a great young player with a cold streak, or an okay young player with a hot streak? Last year it looked like the former was true, but after this one you have to question it...

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think his argument was that Larkin has been bad more often than good. If you split up his career so far by half season, it goes good, bad, bad, meh.

The million dollar question: Is he a great young player with a cold streak, or an okay young player with a hot streak? Last year it looked like the former was true, but after this one you have to question it...

The "cold streak" is really just normal development for the majority of young players. Look at what a lot of guys did in their first 2 seasons.. Barkov and Wennberg comes to mind as young center comparables. It's very normal to struggle a bit in the first few seasons, Larkin kinda unexpectedly got off to a hot start that elevated expectations too high too fast but even removing that he hasn't done that badly compared to the "norm". Now if he can't turn the trend next season, that's when I'd start to worry.

 

[Winger98]

All depends on where we are sitting in the standings in Feb/March. If we are even reasonably close to the #8 seed at the TDL, Green stays. If we are basically mathematically eliminated like last year, he goes.

it'll be really interesting if we're close and have any sort of cap room.

 

[vladdy16]

I don't know if I see a real change in Holland's approach. He sold last year when the Wings were all but eliminated, but that was the sort of move that I think any competent GM should be making.

When this summer hit, he immediately started buying again, though. He hasn't been able to ease the roster or cap congestion. He still talks solely about making the playoffs.

I think it is accurate to say that he really means to try and make the playoffs. I may be in the minority but if pressed to make the call, I think that the benefits of that approach outweigh the negatives, so I'm more comfortable accepting that development, but it's not the only reason to point to change.

At the end of the Babcock era, the front office was a 2 man team, with a hyper focus on the present, that was actively mortgaging the future. Bringing in guys like Bertuzzix2, Samuelssonx2, Clearyx2, Quincyx2, Weiss etc and eradicating Hudlerx2 and Filpulla, Smith etc.

Since then, we've rebuilt the front office, which has resulted in a dynamic looking crop of forward prospects, and the first swipe at rebuilding the defense post #5 is underway(meaning Cholowski, Hronok, Saarijarvi etc)

Looking at the Green and Daley contracts, Vanek etc, you can see that there's been an increased emphasis on flexibility/asset management, though obviously some of the older contracts aren't going to vanish(well actually 55 and 52 might come off the books any day right?).

Even Helm and Abdelkader, their contracts seeming to be the antithesis of that approach, hint at a consistency in the thought of a detailed but hyperconservative rebuild.

I think the good news is, even if the plan stalls out and fails miserably, at least there were some other people behind the wheel besides a coach that's going to leave you high and dry and an antiquated GM. If things don't go well for Holland this year, there will be somebody to pass the keys to, which isn't something I would have said a couple years ago.

 

[Winger98]

I think it is accurate to say that he really means to try and make the playoffs. I may be in the minority but if pressed to make the call, I think that the benefits of that approach outweigh the negatives, so I'm more comfortable accepting that development, but it's not the only reason to point to change.

At the end of the Babcock era, the front office was a 2 man team, with a hyper focus on the present, that was actively mortgaging the future. Bringing in guys like Bertuzzix2, Samuelssonx2, Clearyx2, Quincyx2, Weiss etc and eradicating Hudlerx2 and Filpulla, Smith etc.

Since then, we've rebuilt the front office, which has resulted in a dynamic looking crop of forward prospects, and the first swipe at rebuilding the defense post #5 is underway(meaning Cholowski, Hronok, Saarijarvi etc)

Looking at the Green and Daley contracts, Vanek etc, you can see that there's been an increased emphasis on flexibility/asset management, though obviously some of the older contracts aren't going to vanish(well actually 55 and 52 might come off the books any day right?).

Even Helm and Abdelkader, their contracts seeming to be the antithesis of that approach, hint at a consistency in the thought of a detailed but hyperconservative rebuild.

I think the good news is, even if the plan stalls out and fails miserably, at least there were some other people behind the wheel besides a coach that's going to leave you high and dry and an antiquated GM. If things don't go well for Holland this year, there will be somebody to pass the keys to, which isn't something I would have said a couple years ago.

You've conveniently left of Nielsen. I also disagree that Gator and Helm's deals plays into the idea that the Wings have placed an added value on flexibility or that they have been good ways of managing their assets.

If Holland really wanted to put value on flexibility and cost, he would have dealt Gator/Helm, and waited out the market for an aging vet on a one year deal rather than grabbing Daley for three years - a term that will make it difficult to re-sign our RFA and put a serious offer in to retain Green, or go after a better player on the market next summer (like going after de Haan).

Also, have to point out that the management shakeup wasn't by choice. Nill and Yzerman left, and promptly gutted our org taking a ton of people with them. It might work out well in the long run, but it wasn't something Holland was identifying as an issue and working to fix.

Really, it's the lack of foresight and preemptive action that is Holland's biggest issue at this point. We shouldn't be looking to replace Lids now. We essentially took one draft (the XO/Sproul/Jensen/Marchenko year) and then largely ignored it. We should have been drafting D left and right leading up to Lids' final year here. We should have been identifying guys we could cut loose - Helm, Gator - for picks/prospects while maintaining our core when our core was good.

I think it's wrong to call what the Wings are doing a "rebuild." They are sucking, yeah, but that's not rebuilding - at least not in the sense that it's now understood.

 

[vladdy16]

You've conveniently left of Nielsen. I also disagree that Gator and Helm's deals plays into the idea that the Wings have placed an added value on flexibility or that they have been good ways of managing their assets.

If Holland really wanted to put value on flexibility and cost, he would have dealt Gator/Helm, and waited out the market for an aging vet on a one year deal rather than grabbing Daley for three years - a term that will make it difficult to re-sign our RFA and put a serious offer in to retain Green, or go after a better player on the market next summer (like going after de Haan).

Also, have to point out that the management shakeup wasn't by choice. Nill and Yzerman left, and promptly gutted our org taking a ton of people with them. It might work out well in the long run, but it wasn't something Holland was identifying as an issue and working to fix.

Really, it's the lack of foresight and preemptive action that is Holland's biggest issue at this point. We shouldn't be looking to replace Lids now. We essentially took one draft (the XO/Sproul/Jensen/Marchenko year) and then largely ignored it. We should have been drafting D left and right leading up to Lids' final year here. We should have been identifying guys we could cut loose - Helm, Gator - for picks/prospects while maintaining our core when our core was good.

I think it's wrong to call what the Wings are doing a "rebuild." They are sucking, yeah, but that's not rebuilding - at least not in the sense that it's now understood.

The organization suffered from a crippling lack of forsight, leading to the exodus of the entire front office, and an age range of prospects. There was no concerted effort to rebuild the defense. These are wholly negative consequences of the teams operations during the Babcock era and I don't see a disagreement between us there. Though I'm not sure what/who you mean by "when our core was good". Aren't we agreeing that the core kinda disintegrated?

If you're looking for evidence of a hard rebuild you're not going to find it, but the indicators of a conservative rebuild are pretty overwhelming. That's a marked difference between the Babcock era and now. It might be to little too late, it might be wholly unsuccessful, but you can't claim that it's not different. And like I said, the idea that there's even a front office to hand the keys to if Holland moves on is a brand new one compared to when Babcock was leaving.

I didn't use 8 and 43 as examples of asset management and flexibility, I said those signings were antithetical in that respect, and thus they indicate a further plan for a conservative rebuild with the likes of 51,43,8, 25, Daley etc, tasked with holding the raft steady as the new crop of prospects get on board.

I know a lot of posters have valid arguments against this strategy, I'm of the opinion that we're better off attaining as much stability as possible at this point. Nielson, Green, Tatar, Abdelkader etc are all character guys that have played on international teams and have a lot to prove, and I think that's a good atmosphere to have around while you wait for the next gen to check in.

 

[Frk It]

The organization suffered from a crippling lack of forsight, leading to the exodus of the entire front office, and an age range of prospects. There was no concerted effort to rebuild the defense. These are wholly negative consequences of the teams operations during the Babcock era and I don't see a disagreement between us there. Though I'm not sure what/who you mean by "when our core was good". Aren't we agreeing that the core kinda disintegrated?

"Exodus of the entire front office" from a lack of foresight... what in the world are you talking about?

Nill and Yzerman left on their own accord, because they were offered GM roles. They would 100% still be employed by this team if not for that. There was no exodus based on performance of the front office. There is very little accountability in the front office anymore.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

"Exodus of the entire front office" from a lack of foresight... what in the world are you talking about?

Nill and Yzerman left on their own accord, because they were offered GM roles. They would 100% still be employed by this team if not for that. There was no exodus based on performance of the front office. There is very little accountability in the front office anymore.

What I think he was trying to say is the Wings didn't have the foresight to hand the keys to Nill or to Yzerman, so they both left when they had an opportunity elsewhere. That they could be our GM right now if we had the foresight of knowing that the Wings were going to putter around mediocrity for a couple years.

That the Wings should have planned to have Nill or Yzerman take over five years ago as opposed to what they did. Completely ignores the clear directive from Mr. I and the operating procedure of the Wings for the past 30+ years and truly only looks like a "lack of foresight" when you are provided the clarity of hindsight.

 

[Frk It]

What I think he was trying to say is the Wings didn't have the foresight to hand the keys to Nill or to Yzerman, so they both left when they had an opportunity elsewhere. That they could be our GM right now if we had the foresight of knowing that the Wings were going to putter around mediocrity for a couple years.

That the Wings should have planned to have Nill or Yzerman take over five years ago as opposed to what they did. Completely ignores the clear directive from Mr. I and the operating procedure of the Wings for the past 30+ years and truly only looks like a "lack of foresight" when you are provided the clarity of hindsight.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, Yzerman left in 2010 and there was no reason to move on from Holland at that point. And not sure I'd love Nill to be running this team.

 

[izlez]

Another friendly reminder that Yzerman and Nill have 0 Stanley Cups, missed the playoffs this year, and had nothing to do with acquiring their team's best players.

 

[Frk It]

Another friendly reminder that Yzerman and Nill have 0 Stanley Cups, missed the playoffs this year, and had nothing to do with acquiring their team's best players.

Yzerman drafted Nikita Kucherov, who is an elite player. Nill traded for Seguin, who is an elite player. That's more elite players acquired than Holland can say over the same time frame...

 

[vladdy16]

"Exodus of the entire front office" from a lack of foresight... what in the world are you talking about?

I'm talking about the stretch of time where Babcock and Holland were the main collaborators(if you want to call it that) in the front office, as opposed to the preceding era where Holland operated mainly as a delagator/mediator for a much larger brain trust.

As a result, a couple of years ago, there were fewer people in the organization that would know what to do with the keys if they were handed to them than there are now. I'm citing that amongst reasons to be optimistic that the recent operating procedure of the front office has at least been productive in some sense.

I never expected Yzerman or Nill to end up with the job or otherwise stick around. I also never expected positive long term results from a divided two man front office that I would categorize as one that lacked foresight.

 

[Winger98]

The organization suffered from a crippling lack of forsight, leading to the exodus of the entire front office, and an age range of prospects. There was no concerted effort to rebuild the defense. These are wholly negative consequences of the teams operations during the Babcock era and I don't see a disagreement between us there. Though I'm not sure what/who you mean by "when our core was good". Aren't we agreeing that the core kinda disintegrated?

If you're looking for evidence of a hard rebuild you're not going to find it, but the indicators of a conservative rebuild are pretty overwhelming. That's a marked difference between the Babcock era and now. It might be to little too late, it might be wholly unsuccessful, but you can't claim that it's not different. And like I said, the idea that there's even a front office to hand the keys to if Holland moves on is a brand new one compared to when Babcock was leaving.

I didn't use 8 and 43 as examples of asset management and flexibility, I said those signings were antithetical in that respect, and thus they indicate a further plan for a conservative rebuild with the likes of 51,43,8, 25, Daley etc, tasked with holding the raft steady as the new crop of prospects get on board.

I know a lot of posters have valid arguments against this strategy, I'm of the opinion that we're better off attaining as much stability as possible at this point. Nielson, Green, Tatar, Abdelkader etc are all character guys that have played on international teams and have a lot to prove, and I think that's a good atmosphere to have around while you wait for the next gen to check in.

I'm saying that before our core aged and fell apart we should have been identifying guys like Gator, Helm, Hudler, Flip, etc. to move for younger/cheaper/future assets to fill around Z,D, Kronwall, etc., and to (hopefully) transition quicker to a future core.

What you're calling a conservative rebuild, I don't see any real difference from Holland's "rebuild on the fly" strategy. Unless the club continues to slip and the Wings keep drafting high, I don't have a lot of faith in it being any more successful than it has been. At least not unless Holland gets far more aggressive on other fronts.

 

[vladdy16]

I'm saying that before our core aged and fell apart we should have been identifying guys like Gator, Helm, Hudler, Flip, etc. to move for younger/cheaper/future assets to fill around Z,D, Kronwall, etc., and to (hopefully) transition quicker to a future core.

What you're calling a conservative rebuild, I don't see any real difference from Holland's "rebuild on the fly" strategy. Unless the club continues to slip and the Wings keep drafting high, I don't have a lot of faith in it being any more successful than it has been. At least not unless Holland gets far more aggressive on other fronts.

Gotcha. If you can believe it, I actually (desperately) thought that if left in tact, 8,43,26 and 51 would work as a great bridge between the 13 and 40 core and up and coming 21 and 14 and then what turned out to be Larkin and Mantha.

It got pretty scrambly and expensive letting those guys go(driving them out) for free and resorting to risks, reaches and rehashes in their stead. (Hudler finished with more points in the 14-15 season than any single season Red Wing since 10-11)

I think rebuild on the fly is a fair term too, I just think it looks different if you assume we've only been doing that for a couple years as opposed to thinking that the rebuild on the fly dates back to 2010-14 or whatever.

I don't have much faith either, but there is solace in the recent draft record I think, and the fact that this should be a make or break year(contractually) for the two guys with the most influence on the direction of the team.

 

[ricky0034]

I think it is accurate to say that he really means to try and make the playoffs. I may be in the minority but if pressed to make the call, I think that the benefits of that approach outweigh the negatives, so I'm more comfortable accepting that development, but it's not the only reason to point to change.

At the end of the Babcock era, the front office was a 2 man team, with a hyper focus on the present, that was actively mortgaging the future. Bringing in guys like Bertuzzix2, Samuelssonx2, Clearyx2, Quincyx2, Weiss etc and eradicating Hudlerx2 and Filpulla, Smith etc.

Since then, we've rebuilt the front office, which has resulted in a dynamic looking crop of forward prospects, and the first swipe at rebuilding the defense post #5 is underway(meaning Cholowski, Hronok, Saarijarvi etc)

Looking at the Green and Daley contracts, Vanek etc, you can see that there's been an increased emphasis on flexibility/asset management, though obviously some of the older contracts aren't going to vanish(well actually 55 and 52 might come off the books any day right?).

Even Helm and Abdelkader, their contracts seeming to be the antithesis of that approach, hint at a consistency in the thought of a detailed but hyperconservative rebuild.

I think the good news is, even if the plan stalls out and fails miserably, at least there were some other people behind the wheel besides a coach that's going to leave you high and dry and an antiquated GM. If things don't go well for Holland this year, there will be somebody to pass the keys to, which isn't something I would have said a couple years ago.

comments like this have way too much hindsight in them

the Wings had a promising looking group of defensive prospects a few years ago too,some might even say more so than the current group

maybe these ones pan out better but none of them have even shown what they can do in the AHL yet let alone the NHL

as far as i'm concerned the Wings have nothing on defense until proven otherwise

 

[Winger98]

Gotcha. If you can believe it, I actually (desperately) thought that if left in tact, 8,43,26 and 51 would work as a great bridge between the 13 and 40 core and up and coming 21 and 14 and then what turned out to be Larkin and Mantha.

It got pretty scrambly and expensive letting those guys go(driving them out) for free and resorting to risks, reaches and rehashes in their stead. (Hudler finished with more points in the 14-15 season than any single season Red Wing since 10-11)

I think rebuild on the fly is a fair term too, I just think it looks different if you assume we've only been doing that for a couple years as opposed to thinking that the rebuild on the fly dates back to 2010-14 or whatever.

I don't have much faith either, but there is solace in the recent draft record I think, and the fact that this should be a make or break year(contractually) for the two guys with the most influence on the direction of the team.

I was ready to move on from Huds, but I thought for sure it was to bring up Nyquist and transition to some younger guys up front. And then Holland brought in Sammy and Tootoo and re-signed Bert... . I could see the justification in signing those guys, and I defended those signings at the time, but letting Hudler walk and not replacing him with Nyquist the following season was the first chink in the armor for me.

I don't think we're too far apart, but I do think this rebuild on the fly thing goes back more than two years, and that really helps show why people are tired of this approach. We've been down this road and, barring some draft lottery luck, it doesn't end well. I'm hoping Holland pulls a rabbit out of his hat and we get undeservedly lucky with a couple of picks. The realist in me thinks we're just sort of screwed, though, until this roster falls entirely apart and moves are forced on management.

 

[HIFE]

There's no guarantee that green is dealt. I'd say it's no worse than 50/50 odds that green is as likely to be re-signed as he is to be traded. For Holland to trade Green it's a complete admission that the team is a bottom feeder and not some playoff contender Holland sees this team as. I don't believe Holland is willing to give up that delusion.

It's a minority view but I think 0% Green is dealt or not resigned. It's another one of these phrases thrown around nonchalantly, "...when Kenny sells Green at the TD." Holland will not rebuild now or in the future. There was talk for 2 years Green was coming to Detroit, does anyone honestly think they'd let a D of his caliber simply slip away? LOL. Unless Green is unhappy here he will remain.

 

[Bench]

Unless Green is unhappy here he will remain.

I think that's the most likely scenario. He asks to be traded to a contender at the deadline to chase a Cup. It won't be personal or anything. He's only got a handful more prime years to be an impact player for any Cup run.

 

[Heaton]

comments like this have way too much hindsight in them

the Wings had a promising looking group of defensive prospects a few years ago too,some might even say more so than the current group

maybe these ones pan out better but none of them have even shown what they can do in the AHL yet let alone the NHL

as far as i'm concerned the Wings have nothing on defense until proven otherwise

People were just as excited about Smith as they are about Hronek or whoever our top guy is.

I really hope this turns out differently.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Green will be moved at the deadline unless we're in the race. If it's a repeat of last year he will 100% be traded. If they're in a playoff spot or within striking distance then Holland will keep him. It's pretty simple.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Green traded and then brought back July 1st if he liked it here.

 

[Pavels Dog]

People were just as excited about Smith as they are about Hronek or whoever our top guy is.

I really hope this turns out differently.

Never got the Smith hype. Took until his d+3 year to really impress in the NCAA, and his rookie season in the AHL was comparable to what Hicketts did at the same age. That sort of progression is okay for a prospect that is high-IQ and a late bloomer physically (such as Cholo), but Smith wasn't that type of prospect.

Kindl is a better comparable as someone who looked pretty impressive in their d+1 and d+2 years just like Hronek/VS. He really hit a wall in the AHL though. I don't expect that for them, but we'll see.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Another friendly reminder that Yzerman and Nill have 0 Stanley Cups, missed the playoffs this year, and had nothing to do with acquiring their team's best players.

They both have accomplished more since leaving Detroit than Ken Holland has since they left.

 

[StargateSG1]

They both have accomplished more since leaving Detroit than Ken Holland has since they left.

They both have contender rosters with multiple superstars locked in into long term, team friendly contracts.
Compare that to the roster Kenny has built and the Stanley Cup argument has nothing to do with it.
It's not about the past, it's all about the future.

 

[Pavels Dog]

They both have accomplished more since leaving Detroit than Ken Holland has since they left.

Yeah Dallas has 4 more wins in the playoffs in that time. Amazing work by Nill with a young core compared to Holland who was dealing with the complete decline and disintegration of his core.

And I'm sure Holland would completely fumble building around Stamkos and Hedman, after all he has an extensive track record of not building winning around elite core players

 

[StargateSG1]

Yeah Dallas has 4 more wins in the playoffs in that time. Amazing work by Nill with a young core compared to Holland who was dealing with the complete decline and disintegration of his core.

And I'm sure Holland would completely fumble building around Stamkos and Hedman, after all he has an extensive track record of not building winning around elite core players

So, what's his plan to acquire elite players again?
Sit on his butt and twirl the thumbs for another 10 years, hoping to get lucky?