Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season III: Ray/Semien out, Gausman in. Jays linked to everyone. Labor strife happening.

[joepeps]

Baseball f***ed up but they can't keep glorifying cheaters. God knows how many kids and young ball players who were influenced into trying roids during that era.

Maybe one day you have wing in the hall of fame for cheaters but I wouldn't dignify on these guys with a jacket or ceremony.

They just put in Ortiz a known cheater lol

 

[The Nemesis]

Baseball f***ed up but they can't keep glorifying cheaters. God knows how many kids and young ball players who were influenced into trying roids during that era.

Maybe one day you have wing in the hall of fame for cheaters but I wouldn't dignify on these guys with a jacket or ceremony.

Personally, I don't think the biggest issue is whether or not baseball should or shouldn't elect guys with PED links to the hall of fame. It's the hypocrisy/double standard of how guys get in. To which David Ortiz is the intersection of two very different versions of this argument. (disclosure: the following is not a takedown of anyone's posts here, I'm just using this as a springboard post to go in-depth about something that has already been touched on even in these very specific terms earlier in the thread)

on the PEDs side of things you have Ortiz getting in with an alleged positive test on his record while the likes of Bonds and Clemens, who in spite of their long-held suspicion/belief/accusation of being on the juice, never actually tested positive in a publicly known way. So on PED grounds you have "don't let the cheating juicers in, but oh yeah it's fine for you, David. Rob Manfred said you're OK possibly and you're not a douchenozzle like Bonds or Clemens were so we'll just skip in over that whole test issue."

And then on the other hand you have non-PED hypocrisy of unequal standards. to wit:

Player A:
2408 GP (10,091 PA)
541 HR
1768 RBI
.286/.380/.552/.931 slash (avg/obp/slg/ops)
13.1% BB, 17.3% K
140 wRC+
51.0 fWAR
10x all-star,
7x silver sluger,
3x WS,
1x WS MVP,
fielded 2166 career innings in the field, all as a 1B (this is important for a reason)


Player B:
2055 GP (8,672 PA)
309 HR
1261 RBI
.312/.418/.515/.933 slash line
14.8% BB, 13.9% K
147 wRC+
65.5 fWAR,
7x all-star,
5x silver slugger,
2x batting champion,
fielded 4605.1 career innings at 3B, plus 224 as a 1B.
only made 34 career post-season games, which can't be hung around his neck.

Post-season accomplishments aside they are very similar players with differences that depend on whether your favorite flavor is all-around offensive ability or big-power mashing. If you pro-rate B to A's # of plate appearances you end up with 460 HR and just a shade under 1470 RBI. not a dead heat, but closer. Plus that sort of career extension would probably push his fWAR lead higher as well. And the defensive innings are relevant because both players are primarily regarded as career DHs with all the stigma that entails when it comes to HOF voters claiming "but he didn't play in the field so he barely counts as a baseball player!" as a defence for shunning them in the voting process.

Point is that this is not some Tyson-esque mauler vs a skinny flyweight of a boxing match. Yet as you've probably guessed by now Player A is David Ortiz, who skated into the HOF on his first try while player B is Edgar Martinez, who started his HOF march in 2010 in the mid 30% vote range, bottomed out at about 25% in 2014 before it took a 5-year march to him clearing the election threshold in 2019 which was his final year on the ballot.

Not even "but golly gosh David Ortiz is such a super nice guy!" and fetishizing his playoff achievements should make for that disparate of a HOF path. Which likely leads to a defence of "but if you look at David Ortiz he's a hall of famer so his numbers are less important than his aura!" that I think is also BS. Because if numbers don't count then HOF voters should stop using them as roadblocks. So-and-so didn't get X RBIs or Y HRs or pitch Z many 20-win seasons. Or nobody has ever had a career average of A or less with B or fewer HRs and made it or whatever.

the HOF vote is kinda really stupid and full of hypocrisy, double standards, dumb, wrong-headed thinking and baffling non-logic.

But at the same time I almost want to see it applied to other sports. Because lord knows that talking about the baseball HOF voting and induction process is a lot more fun than the somewhat blase way that hockey, basketball, or football HOFs are handled. And I almost think that the HOF exists chiefly to satisfy two distinct audiences

1) the casual fans who see the hall as a museum to the greatness of the sport over the years

and

2) as debate-fodder for the hardcore fans who look at the mechanics of its inductions as referendums on how the game is observed, quantified, and qualified.

 

[Maplebeasts]

I think the outrage over Clemens and Bonds is more about the inconsistency over cheaters in the hall of fame than the argument itself (though having a top 3 bat of all time not in the hall is a joke imo). Ortiz was just put in and he was in the Mitchell report. You either ban all cheaters from the hall or you ban none of them.

 

[TGB]

Better yet, disassociate from the Hall of Fame and let it run as an unofficial tourist attraction. Can't really argue about who deserves to get in or not if MLB responds to every selection with something along the lines of "The choice of who joins the Hall of Fame doesn't reflect the official views or standards of MLB" or whatever.

 

[rojac]

Better yet, disassociate from the Hall of Fame and let it run as an unofficial tourist attraction. Can't really argue about who deserves to get in or not if MLB responds to every selection with something along the lines of "The choice of who joins the Hall of Fame doesn't reflect the official views or standards of MLB" or whatever.

You really think they need to say that? Isn't it clear that it's not the official views of MLB? Hall of Famers are selected by the Baseball Writers Association of America and Veterans Committees, neither of which have any official connection with MLB.

 

[phillipmike]

Mariners connected to top target in upcoming deep free agency class

The Blue Jays are expected to sign one of the top international free agents from next year’s class

However, on the morning of January 27th, it was announced by Joe Doyle of Prospects Live that the Toronto Blue Jays are in a handshake deal with corner outfielder Emmanuel Bonilla. The 15-year-old from the Dominican Republic is already a whooping 6’3, 205 pounds. He’ll be turning 16 in February, meaning that by February 2023, the young outfielder will be able to officially sign with the Jays. He is estimated to sign with a bonus of 4 million, slightly more than what Vladimir Guerrero Jr signed for in 2015 (3.9 million).

 

[thehockeysong]

The Blue Jays are expected to sign one of the top international free agents from next year’s class

Would be nice if the Yankees didn't perennially get a top guy, but fun to see the Jays get a good one. Big projectable power.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

The hit tool must be absolutely bonkers for that kind of bonus on a corner outfielder.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Bonilla. We should give him a million dollars until he's 72 like the Mets did with their Bonilla

 

[Lightsol]

Personally, I don't think the biggest issue is whether or not baseball should or shouldn't elect guys with PED links to the hall of fame. It's the hypocrisy/double standard of how guys get in. To which David Ortiz is the intersection of two very different versions of this argument. (disclosure: the following is not a takedown of anyone's posts here, I'm just using this as a springboard post to go in-depth about something that has already been touched on even in these very specific terms earlier in the thread)

on the PEDs side of things you have Ortiz getting in with an alleged positive test on his record while the likes of Bonds and Clemens, who in spite of their long-held suspicion/belief/accusation of being on the juice, never actually tested positive in a publicly known way. So on PED grounds you have "don't let the cheating juicers in, but oh yeah it's fine for you, David. Rob Manfred said you're OK possibly and you're not a douchenozzle like Bonds or Clemens were so we'll just skip in over that whole test issue."

And then on the other hand you have non-PED hypocrisy of unequal standards. to wit:

Player A:
2408 GP (10,091 PA)
541 HR
1768 RBI
.286/.380/.552/.931 slash (avg/obp/slg/ops)
13.1% BB, 17.3% K
140 wRC+
51.0 fWAR
10x all-star,
7x silver sluger,
3x WS,
1x WS MVP,
fielded 2166 career innings in the field, all as a 1B (this is important for a reason)


Player B:
2055 GP (8,672 PA)
309 HR
1261 RBI
.312/.418/.515/.933 slash line
14.8% BB, 13.9% K
147 wRC+
65.5 fWAR,
7x all-star,
5x silver slugger,
2x batting champion,
fielded 4605.1 career innings at 3B, plus 224 as a 1B.
only made 34 career post-season games, which can't be hung around his neck.

Post-season accomplishments aside they are very similar players with differences that depend on whether your favorite flavor is all-around offensive ability or big-power mashing. If you pro-rate B to A's # of plate appearances you end up with 460 HR and just a shade under 1470 RBI. not a dead heat, but closer. Plus that sort of career extension would probably push his fWAR lead higher as well. And the defensive innings are relevant because both players are primarily regarded as career DHs with all the stigma that entails when it comes to HOF voters claiming "but he didn't play in the field so he barely counts as a baseball player!" as a defence for shunning them in the voting process.

Point is that this is not some Tyson-esque mauler vs a skinny flyweight of a boxing match. Yet as you've probably guessed by now Player A is David Ortiz, who skated into the HOF on his first try while player B is Edgar Martinez, who started his HOF march in 2010 in the mid 30% vote range, bottomed out at about 25% in 2014 before it took a 5-year march to him clearing the election threshold in 2019 which was his final year on the ballot.

Not even "but golly gosh David Ortiz is such a super nice guy!" and fetishizing his playoff achievements should make for that disparate of a HOF path. Which likely leads to a defence of "but if you look at David Ortiz he's a hall of famer so his numbers are less important than his aura!" that I think is also BS. Because if numbers don't count then HOF voters should stop using them as roadblocks. So-and-so didn't get X RBIs or Y HRs or pitch Z many 20-win seasons. Or nobody has ever had a career average of A or less with B or fewer HRs and made it or whatever.

the HOF vote is kinda really stupid and full of hypocrisy, double standards, dumb, wrong-headed thinking and baffling non-logic.

But at the same time I almost want to see it applied to other sports. Because lord knows that talking about the baseball HOF voting and induction process is a lot more fun than the somewhat blase way that hockey, basketball, or football HOFs are handled. And I almost think that the HOF exists chiefly to satisfy two distinct audiences

1) the casual fans who see the hall as a museum to the greatness of the sport over the years

and

2) as debate-fodder for the hardcore fans who look at the mechanics of its inductions as referendums on how the game is observed, quantified, and qualified.

Let's be honest; we all know that Ortiz is in first ballot for the same reason Derek Jeter was in first ballot. Not because either of them deserve or didn't deserve it, not because of numbers, but because they were the 00 faces of the golden children of the MLB.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Honestly outside of the Jays that may or may not get in I couldn't give 2 shits about the Hall of Fame. It is the hall of Fame and not the hall of results. We don't put guys in based on a certain career WAR threshold. They can and do put the players in they want to based on votes. Whether that's because of their fame, their results, because they're liked. I don't care.

I guess that's 1 more paragraph on the topic than a person who doesn't care would write though. It's just been a topic here now for 3 or 4 days, I caved.

 

[Bjindaho]

Let's be honest; we all know that Ortiz is in first ballot for the same reason Derek Jeter was in first ballot. Not because either of them deserve or didn't deserve it, not because of numbers, but because they were the 00 faces of the golden children of the MLB.

Derek Jeter is a first ballot HOF. As much as he is grossly overrated (mostly by media who wanted to pretend he was a top 5 or 10 player of all time), he is absolutely worthy of the hall. Even if he had shifted to 2b to overcome his defensive weakness, he'd still be a first ballot guy.

One thing people are missing is that character is one of the attributes that voters are required to consider. Also, the three big steroid guys who aren't in the Hall are openly racist.

 

[thehockeysong]

The issue with Jeter is that he was one vote (if memory serves correctly) away from being a unanimous entrant on his first ballot. He's not close to being in that category.

 

[dredeye]

It is nice to be tied to the upper echelon on international players. We’ve done well there. Sounds like potentially another ridiculous bat in the system

 

[habamillions]

The issue with Jeter is that he was one vote (if memory serves correctly) away from being a unanimous entrant on his first ballot. He's not close to being in that category.

We all know if he didnt play for the yankees he wouldnt of had that many votes. Dont get me wrong he is a good player. But there are way better players who played ss that are ahead of jeter.

 

[Discoverer]

We all know if he didnt play for the yankees he wouldnt of had that many votes. Dont get me wrong he is a good player. But there are way better players who played ss that are ahead of jeter.

He wasn't even the best player elected that year, yet he got all but one vote while the other barely snuck in on his last time on the ballot.

A lot of voters are stupid. Hearing the justifications some of them use, I'm positive that most of them decide whether someone is a Hall of Famer based on their gut and then just look for stats/make up reasons to back up that opinion. Very few of them actually form their opinion based on the facts.

 

[canucksfan]

Jeter's defense and leadership are incredibly overrated.

 

[justashadowof]

The childish butthurt over Derek Jeter still hasn't died down? It's not a happy life if you form your world view through the conveyed experiences of man childs like Mike Wilner.

 

[thehockeysong]

The childish butthurt over Derek Jeter still hasn't died down? It's not a happy life if you form your world view through the conveyed experiences of man childs like Mike Wilner.

Accidental irony is the best irony.

 

[Lightsol]

Derek Jeter is a first ballot HOF. As much as he is grossly overrated (mostly by media who wanted to pretend he was a top 5 or 10 player of all time), he is absolutely worthy of the hall. Even if he had shifted to 2b to overcome his defensive weakness, he'd still be a first ballot guy.

One thing people are missing is that character is one of the attributes that voters are required to consider. Also, the three big steroid guys who aren't in the Hall are openly racist.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying Jeter doesn't deserve to be in, I'm saying if he played for anyone other than the Yankees, he wouldn't have gotten in first ballot. And David Ortiz doesn't go in first ballot if he plays for any team other than the Red Sox.

 

[Discoverer]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying Jeter doesn't deserve to be in, I'm saying if he played for anyone other than the Yankees, he wouldn't have gotten in first ballot. And David Ortiz doesn't go in first ballot if he plays for any team other than the Red Sox.

I actually agree about Ortiz because of the DH thing, but I think most of Jeter's comps are first ballot guys (other than Barry Larkin, who was basically small-market Jeter.)

 

[TheBeastCoast]

3k hits is almost an auto 1st ballot into the hall...if you aren't a meanie to the writers of course. But Jeter plays in Oakland he would just be another guy among his actual comparables and not propped up on some all time pedestal like some like to act like he achieved.

 

[Lightsol]

I actually agree about Ortiz because of the DH thing, but I think most of Jeter's comps are first ballot guys (other than Barry Larkin, who was basically small-market Jeter.)

I find it a travesty that Jeter got in first ballot and Alan Trammell didn't get in at all...

 

[TGB]

I was under the impression a lot of Jeter's fame came from his off field actions as well. He was just a really good guy all around, or so I gathered.

 

[kb]

I was under the impression a lot of Jeter's fame came from his off field actions as well. He was just a really good guy all around, or so I gathered.

Or so we were told......

So many unknowns.