Pre-Game Talk: NYR vs ARI - 10/26/17 @7pm

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You are getting so far ahead of yourself here. If we are in the position we currently are in by February, your mindset makes sense. But we're 10 games in. There's so much hockey left in the season it's beyond premature to be looking at it from that angle already.

This team as constructed isn't going to finish the season at their current pace with 16 wins. There will be ebbs and flows and winning streaks. Barring major injuries, this team won't be a bottom 5 team so it's ridiculous to hope for that.

As a fan shouldn't we be hoping for the team to pull out of the nosedive and get on a streak or offset their poor start? Not pining for the 1st OA pick next year, which finishing last doesn't even guarantee you, and that player doesn't guarantee to save the franchise.

Sorry, I want the team to collectively pull their heads from their butts, go on a few winning streaks and be right back in the playoff picture and hopefully hit their stride in the second half, much like the 2014 team did after a poor start (3-7in first 10 games). I want to see growth from Skjei, Buch and Vesey. We have Chytil and Lias and Tony D hopefully progressing away from AV. Keep our first for next season and add to the youth with that pick which will hopefully be in the 20's.

That should be the hope at this point, not to continue playing like crap for the next 72 games (I laugh even writing that because it is SO MANY GAMES) just so we will have a chance at lottery ticket that may be a winner.

If you think this team is a Cup Contender, I don't know what to even say, I think these first 10 games are proof we are not, regardless of whether we've had bad shooting percentages. This team does not possess the players needed to win the Stanley Cup, and I've been saying that for years. Why people insist on papering over the cracks? I don't know.

We need to be honest with ourselves, the best thing to do right now is tank so we can acquire the pieces necessary to be a Cup Contender in a few years. We don't need to do a 10 year rebuild, one or two years will suffice, if its done right.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I re-watched the last game on the late night replay that MSG has, and it was staggering how well he had played in that game. I didn't even bother mentioning it here because I thought after he set up the only goal, that would get him back on the first line, but he was one of the few best players on the ice for either team.

What more does he need to do for AV to not put him on the 4th line? He's a top 6 player in just about every stat there is for this team with ridiculously low ice time, and having to play with 4th liners of late like Grabner and Cracknell. Everyone can see it watching the games as well, except our coach. One of the reasons he needs to be fired whenever it is beneficial for the team to fire him.

I thought so too bro. Especially after he assisted on Zib's goal. Unfortunately it will take either trading Nash or Zucc, or even Kreider or Miller to get Buch back in the top-6 at this point

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

If you think this team is a Cup Contender, I don't know what to even say, I think these first 10 games are proof we are not, regardless of whether we've had bad shooting percentages. This team does not possess the players needed to win the Stanley Cup, and I've been saying that for years. Why people insist on papering over the cracks? I don't know.

We need to be honest with ourselves, the best thing to do right now is tank so we can acquire the pieces necessary to be a Cup Contender in a few years. We don't need to do a 10 year rebuild, one or two years will suffice, if its done right.

That's why I've been saying we should trade Buch to move up to get Dahlin.

What's your take on that since you are big on the rebuild?

 

[kovazub94]

So let me get it straight: we reached a point where we are hoping that our goalie will steal a win against Arizona Coyotes?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

So let me get it straight: we reached a point where we are hoping that our goalie will steal a win against Arizona Coyotes?

We come along way since Rick Nash carried us being filled with all that venom from those snakes.

 

[kovazub94]

If you think this team is a Cup Contender, I don't know what to even say, I think these first 10 games are proof we are not, regardless of whether we've had bad shooting percentages. This team does not possess the players needed to win the Stanley Cup, and I've been saying that for years. Why people insist on papering over the cracks? I don't know.

We need to be honest with ourselves, the best thing to do right now is tank so we can acquire the pieces necessary to be a Cup Contender in a few years. We don't need to do a 10 year rebuild, one or two years will suffice, if its done right.

Some here (myself included) have a memory of recent trips to SCF and ECF where the team also had pretty bad starts to the season and the very same opinions where flying around this forum and a lot of other places. And that's the point - it is too early to prepare for early offseason and upcoming draft just yet. You could be absolutely right but this call needs to be made at least a month from now, if not 2-3.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Some here (myself included) have a memory of recent trips to SCF and ECF where the team also had pretty bad starts to the season and the very same opinions where flying around this forum and a lot of other places. And that's the point - it is too early to prepare for early offseason and upcoming draft just yet. You could be absolutely right but this call needs to be made at least a month from now, if not 2-3.

Exactly the point I was trying to make in my post. We're still only 10 games into the season, it's too early.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Some here (myself included) have a memory of recent trips to SCF and ECF where the team also had pretty bad starts to the season and the very same opinions where flying around this forum and a lot of other places. And that's the point - it is too early to prepare for early offseason and upcoming draft just yet. You could be absolutely right but this call needs to be made at least a month from now, if not 2-3.

Those teams were better. This isn't just hindsight either, those were legitimately good teams that got off to crappy starts, one of them under a new coach/system in the midst of a ridiculous road trip. Neither of those teams started as poorly as this one did either. This team was borderline as far as the playoffs go to begin with, the start that they've had is going to really make it very, very difficult to make the playoffs with out doing something really stupid (Duchene.)

You're right that its too early to make any rash decisions though. I can't see the FO trading away key players just yet. They should fire the coach and go from there.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

So let me get it straight: we reached a point where we are hoping that our goalie will steal a win against Arizona Coyotes?

We have reached a point where we are hoping our goalie plays up to standard

 

[Holocene]

Rather watch them win than lose but it's not the worst year to suck and maybe get a top 5 pick.

 

[LeetchisGod]

The other thing is, any amount of normal puck luck, and league average goaltending, we're looking at a 4-4-2 team, instead of this 2-6-2 thing. They aren't as bad as some here are making them out to be. No, they are not a GOOD team, but they are not a lottery team either.

Mediocrity is the kiss of death in the NHL.

 

[kovazub94]

Those teams were better. This isn't just hindsight either, those were legitimately good teams that got off to crappy starts, one of them under a new coach/system in the midst of a ridiculous road trip. Neither of those teams started as poorly as this one did either. This team was borderline as far as the playoffs go to begin with, the start that they've had is going to really make it very, very difficult to make the playoffs with out doing something really stupid (Duchene.)

You're right that its too early to make any rash decisions though. I can't see the FO trading away key players just yet. They should fire the coach and go from there.

Well back then it wasn't also clear that the team was worthy of a trip to SCF.

Leaving coaching to another discussion and even with no external moves, it is POSSIBLE that Zuke and especially Kreider will play worthy of 1st line, Buch and Vesey begin to contribute like top6/9, Miller and Hayes are good 2C/3C combo. On defense, as a group, they get back to form and Lundqvist is back to being elite or almost (the most important condition).How likely that these things happen? Some more likely than others but, all together as of right now? Probably no more than 50/50, but it is still high enough to give up this early.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Some here (myself included) have a memory of recent trips to SCF and ECF where the team also had pretty bad starts to the season and the very same opinions where flying around this forum and a lot of other places. And that's the point - it is too early to prepare for early offseason and upcoming draft just yet. You could be absolutely right but this call needs to be made at least a month from now, if not 2-3.

Deep playoff runs years ago mean nothing right now. Maybe they help with having experience once you are in the playoffs, but as has been said many times here by many people over the last number of days, we have a very slim chance to make the playoffs.

Toronto doesn't have many deep playoff runs to give an example of a team thats now better equipped than us from what I've seen, neither does Edmonton (their record sucks but they have 97). Its about the pieces you possess. We relied a few years ago on one of the best defenses in the league including a 1D and numerous other very good defensemen along with the best goalie in the game. We got some offense, but in the end, we lacked that 1C that nearly every team that wins a Stanley Cup has.

Over the years, we've tried to avoid making the necessary changes, and have instead tried to paper over those cracks by bulking up our forward core, weakening our defense (all around, forwards and defensemen), and have brought in more offensive defensemen to try to help out the offense that does lack that offensive difference maker. If you want to say its too early to say anything for sure, I'd agree that usually its best to not make judgements over 10 games, but then the same would apply for a team like Arizona who everyone here would admit that they suck. This team has a fundamental problem that I think whether we judge it in game 10 or game 50, I think it'll still exist, its existed for a long time with this organization, there's no reason to think that much has changed.

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Deep playoff runs years ago mean nothing right now. Maybe they help with having experience once you are in the playoffs, but as has been said many times here by many people over the last number of days, we have a very slim chance to make the playoffs.

Toronto doesn't have many deep playoff runs to give an example of a team thats now better equipped than us from what I've seen, neither does Edmonton (their record sucks but they have 97). Its about the pieces you possess. We relied a few years ago on one of the best defenses in the league including a 1D and numerous other very good defensemen along with the best goalie in the game. We got some offense, but in the end, we lacked that 1C that nearly every team that wins a Stanley Cup has.

Over the years, we've tried to avoid making the necessary changes, and have instead tried to paper over those cracks by bulking up our forward core, weakening our defense (all around, forwards and defensemen), and have brought in more offensive defensemen to try to help out the offense that does lack that offensive difference maker. If you want to say its too early to say anything for sure, I'd agree that usually its best to not make judgements over 10 games, but then the same would apply for a team like Arizona who everyone here would admit that they suck. This team has a fundamental problem that I think whether we judge it in game 10 or game 50, I think it'll still exist, its existed for a long time with this organization, there's no reason to think that much has changed.

Or an elite sniping winger over the last decade. We've had the fortune of balanced lines. All could contribute. Not so now,,which makes the decline of the backend more obvious.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Well back then it wasn't also clear that the team was worthy of a trip to SCF.

Leaving coaching to another discussion and even with no external moves, it is POSSIBLE that Zuke and especially Kreider will play worthy of 1st line, Buch and Vesey begin to contribute like top6/9, Miller and Hayes are good 2C/3C combo. On defense, as a group, they get back to form and Lundqvist is back to being elite or almost (the most important condition).How likely that these things happen? Some more likely than others but, all together as of right now? Probably no more than 50/50, but it is still high enough to give up this early.

Its more likely that as certain guys find it, others will tail off. We still haven't had a game that Marc Staal has single handedly lost for this team yet. Wait until AV pairs him with Holden.

The 13-14 team may have not been a clear ECF winner, but it was clear that they were a good team. You could excuse the start that they got off to as they were adjusting to a new system.

This roster is significantly worse and they're dropping games during the soft part of their schedule. Who was the last team to make the playoffs after dropping all but 2 of their first 10?

 

[kovazub94]

Deep playoff runs years ago mean nothing right now. Maybe they help with having experience once you are in the playoffs, but as has been said many times here by many people over the last number of days, we have a very slim chance to make the playoffs.

Toronto doesn't have many deep playoff runs to give an example of a team thats now better equipped than us from what I've seen, neither does Edmonton (their record sucks but they have 97). Its about the pieces you possess. We relied a few years ago on one of the best defenses in the league including a 1D and numerous other very good defensemen along with the best goalie in the game. We got some offense, but in the end, we lacked that 1C that nearly every team that wins a Stanley Cup has.

Over the years, we've tried to avoid making the necessary changes, and have instead tried to paper over those cracks by bulking up our forward core, weakening our defense (all around, forwards and defensemen), and have brought in more offensive defensemen to try to help out the offense that does lack that offensive difference maker. If you want to say its too early to say anything for sure, I'd agree that usually its best to not make judgements over 10 games, but then the same would apply for a team like Arizona who everyone here would admit that they suck. This team has a fundamental problem that I think whether we judge it in game 10 or game 50, I think it'll still exist, its existed for a long time with this organization, there's no reason to think that much has changed.

PB, you said these 10 games are the proof that the Rangers are not contenders and I replied that these 10 games are not a proof of anything in that regard.
No elite 1C? Just this year Ottawa, with nothing close to elite 1C almost eliminated Pens who got 2 of them. West was represented by Nashville.

There's no one "a must" element - just all pieces must fit perfectly to be a part of a winning puzzle.

 

[offdacrossbar]

hoping for whatever outcome results in AV being fired. thats what i want

5-0 shutout loss.

come on boys. get er done.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yeah I wish the BS that the Rangers lost to the Kings because of Center depth would die.

Rangers centers produced about on par with what the Kings got from theirs. That series was lost due to the ineffectiveness of Staal and Girardi, the Dwight King "goal" in Game 2, turtling, and pretty much every bounce not going their way.

 

[aufheben]

Who are these teams that suck for 1-2 years and then go win Cups?

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Who are these teams that suck for 1-2 years and then go win Cups?

The Penguins†

†They calculate the years from when the "next one" starts his first Pee-Wee game until draft day.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Nashville came pretty close. Boston is an example of a team that won doing just that.

LA only really bottomed out for 3 years too.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Nashville came pretty close. Boston is an example of a team that won doing just that.

LA only really bottomed out for 3 years too.

Bruins made the play-offs 5 years in a row before winning the Cup in 2011.

The Seguin pick (2nd overall) came from Toronto in the Kessel trade

 

[Nickmo82]

You are getting so far ahead of yourself here. If we are in the position we currently are in by February, your mindset makes sense. But we're 10 games in. There's so much hockey left in the season it's beyond premature to be looking at it from that angle already.

This team as constructed isn't going to finish the season at their current pace with 16 wins. There will be ebbs and flows and winning streaks. Barring major injuries, this team won't be a bottom 5 team so it's ridiculous to hope for that.

As a fan shouldn't we be hoping for the team to pull out of the nosedive and get on a streak or offset their poor start? Not pining for the 1st OA pick next year, which finishing last doesn't even guarantee you, and that player doesn't guarantee to save the franchise.

Sorry, I want the team to collectively pull their heads from their butts, go on a few winning streaks and be right back in the playoff picture and hopefully hit their stride in the second half, much like the 2014 team did after a poor start (3-7in first 10 games). I want to see growth from Skjei, Buch and Vesey. We have Chytil and Lias and Tony D hopefully progressing away from AV. Keep our first for next season and add to the youth with that pick which will hopefully be in the 20's.

That should be the hope at this point, not to continue playing like crap for the next 72 games (I laugh even writing that because it is SO MANY GAMES) just so we will have a chance at lottery ticket that may be a winner.

That's great and all... winning would be great. However, as was pointed out after the Sharks game, this team would need to basically play like a President's trophy team the rest of the way to even sneak in. Is that likely to happen? Have we seen enough improvement game by game to suggest we're about to light it up? No... as far as I'm concerned, the team is still playing like trash as much as they ever were.

What is more likely to happen is the team gets a bit less f***ing awful and finishes just outside the playoffs. Maybe they'll even be close enough at the deadline that the boneheads in the FO think they should go for it and make stupid trades again, resulting in more futures pissed away for Joe Thornton or the like.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Bruins made the play-offs 5 years in a row before winning the Cup in 2011.

The Seguin pick (2nd overall) came from Toronto in the Kessel trade

Kessel was coincidentally their lone lottery pick.

 

[mike14]

Who are these teams that suck for 1-2 years and then go win Cups?

Do the 05-06 and 06-07 Bruins count? They didn't win cups but came pretty close to a second.
It possibly depends on what you define as sucking vs being an mediocre/average team