Confirmed Trade: [NYR/OTT] Mika Zibanejad & 2018 2nd round pick for Derick Brassard & 2018 7th rounder

[WesMcCauley]

Wow surprised Rangers traded away their #1 Center. Nice pickup Ottawa, you'll be a better team with Brassard.

As ive said many times in this thread i love Brass, but Stepan was and is our #1 center. Easily the better twoway center of the two and he is 3 years younger.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think there really is a good way to define a #1 center, or really a #1 anything (goaltending being the exception).

Subjectivity is unavoidable when you have to qualify things in addition to quantifying them. Scouting (which is essentially what this is) requires both.

I think it all starts at the definition though. What is a #1 center to you? The best center on each team, or a player who fits the traditional mold of a #1 center? That answer really sets up how you'd go about ranking players amongst their position.

He was the best center on a team that finished 3rd and 7th in scoring the last two years. Is it really subjective at this point?

 

[WesMcCauley]

That's not a great top 6 moving forward though. Looking at those players nobody is a game breaker. If I'm going into MSG to play them i'm not too worried. All fine players, don't get me wrong, but meh.

When you dont tank, thats what you get. You very rarely get a Benn, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Sid, Malkin, Ovi, Mcdavid, Matthews, Eichel etc unless you tank.

 

[aufheben]

I don't think there really is a good way to define a #1 center, or really a #1 anything (goaltending being the exception).

Subjectivity is unavoidable when you have to qualify things in addition to quantifying them. Scouting (which is essentially what this is) requires both.

I think it all starts at the definition though. What is a #1 center to you? The best center on each team, or a player who fits the traditional mold of a #1 center? That answer really sets up how you'd go about ranking players amongst their position.

It is but I don't see why using production as a starting barometer for a forward is an illogical place to start. And if someone agrees with that but uses like top-15 in production or whatever, I don't see why that would be more rational. Top-30 isn't perfect but it seems less arbitrary than when people suggest you basically need to be Tyler Seguin or Patrice Bergeron.

 

[major major]

With Zibanejad, AV now has another top-6 center he can trust to play well without the puck against quality opposition. This section from a Larry Brooks article explains it well:



I think Zibanejad's feistiness and physicality is probably exaggerated there, but you get the idea.

I think this is more than just a bit exaggerated.

 

[LT]

He was the best center on a team that finished 3rd and 7th in scoring the last two years. Is it really subjective at this point?

I'm not discussing specifics - notice I didn't share my opinion. Just providing my thought on the general topic.

It is but I don't see why using production as a starting barometer for a forward is an illogical place to start. And if something disagrees with that but starts with top-15 in production, I don't see why that would be more rational. Top-30 isn't perfect but it seems less arbitrary IMO.

Good point. But what do you look at? Just the previous season? The last two? Entire careers? Where does that line get drawn?

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded.

 

[LT]

When you dont tank, thats what you get. You very rarely get a Benn, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Sid, Malkin, Ovi, Mcdavid, Matthews, Eichel etc unless you tank.

Yea, Benn and Kopitar (129th and 11th respectively) were definitely acquired through tanking.

I think Doughty, Stamkos, and Hedman would better fit the argument.

Point still stands and is valid, though.

 

[aufheben]

I'm not discussing specifics - notice I didn't share my opinion. Just providing my thought on the general topic.



Good point. But what do you look at? Just the previous season? The last two? Entire careers? Where does that line get drawn?

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded.

Idk, good question.

By the bolded I mean: if people are using a higher criteria (production-wise), I would just like to know why that specific criteria makes more sense. Anyway, Brassard is kind of in a grey area, so it's sort of moot.

 

[Machinehead]

Are we still on the kick that Brassard sucks defensively?

But Derek Stepan who can't win a faceoff, can't skate, and couldn't match up if he was on Tinder while he played is elite defensively right?

 

[feffan]

When you dont tank, thats what you get. You very rarely get a Benn, Kopitar, Toews, Kane, Sid, Malkin, Ovi, Mcdavid, Matthews, Eichel etc unless you tank.

The others are high picks, but Benn picked at 129 and Kopitar at 11 are reachable threw trades even for en PO-team

 

[WesMcCauley]

The others are high picks, but Benn picked at 129 and Kopitar at 11 are reachable threw trades even for en PO-team

Thats why i added them and said very rarely you get guys like that. I know Benn was a late pick.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Yea, Benn and Kopitar (129th and 11th respectively) were definitely acquired through tanking.

I think Doughty, Stamkos, and Hedman would better fit the argument.

Point still stands and is valid, though.

If you could read i said very rarely and not never! Thats why i added them because its possible to get them unless you tank but its extremely rare and more luck than anything else.

 

[LT]

If you could read i said very rarely and not never! Thats why i added them because its possible to get them unless you tank but its extremely rare and more luck than anything else.

Definitely. If you're not picking top three, you just have to hope to get lucky, according to history.

 

[Beacon]

If Brass wasn't 29 I'd say Ottawa actually killed this trade.

If my grandmother had testicles, she'd be my grandfather. The point is that Brass is 29. Had he been 23, the Rangers would've kept him, but then he wouldn't be as consistent as he is now. He was very on and off as a 23 year old, as are the vast majority of others that age. Brass got there with age. Nejad will get there too.

 

[MarcusKane*]

When you have Mark Stone in the system you can trade Silfverberg for a more established player. Ryan + Stone > Silfverberg + Stone.

i'd take silf+stone any day of the week. Bobby ryan is so overrated it's actually disgusting.

 

[Rangers ftw]

As ive said many times in this thread i love Brass, but Stepan was and is our #1 center. Easily the better twoway center of the two and he is 3 years younger.

Age is all Stepan got on Brassard I'd say. In what other aspect of the game is Stepan better? Maybe in the d-zone, but it's not enough to make up for what he lacks in other areas. Like consistency, faceoff, playoff, PP etc. ONLY reason to keep Stepan over Brassard imo is the age factor.

 

[Beacon]

Could this open the door for Shattenkirk and possible Jimmy Vesey signing?

If I'm Vesey, I prefer to go to a team with Nejad than Brass. By the time Vesey adjusts to the NHL and hits his prime, Brass will be on the downturn of his career. If I'm a desired young NHL player, I want a team with a good young core about my age.

 

[Rangers ftw]

Are we still on the kick that Brassard sucks defensively?

But Derek Stepan who can't win a faceoff, can't skate, and couldn't match up if he was on Tinder while he played is elite defensively right?

Haha. Exactly. I actually thought it wasn't even a discussion among ranger fans who was the superior player after last season.

 

[MarcusKane*]

There were only 19 C's in the NHL that hit 60 points last year. 23 the year before. Brassard was one of them. Considering that isn't even 1 per team and multiple teams had more than 1 60 point C, they are kind of difficult to get.

19? not sure where your counting that, nhl shows more.I know some players listed didn't really play center last year but theres still a bunch. If i include some players on down years its 26+ easy. i consider someone up who puts up 58 one year and 60 ish the next a 60 point center. 2nd line centers aren't rare.

 

[feffan]

Thats why i added them and said very rarely you get guys like that. I know Benn was a late pick.

Seemed like you where counting up high picks that you couldn´t get your hands on without an pick. My bad if you meant it the other way.

And of course the higher the pick the better chance you have to get an great player. No ones gonna argue that. But if you have good scouting and patience with development you can find the likes off one of these 27 players who where in picked outside the top 10, first round or undrafted and still was top 50 in scoring last year:
Benn (129th)
Karlsson (15th pick)
Pavelski (205th)
Gaudreau (104th)
Panarin (undrafted)
Kuznetsov (26th)
Burns (20th)
Tarasenko (16th)
Bergeron (45th)
Giroux (22nd)
Letang (62nd)
Kucherov (58th)
Forsberg (11th)
Pacioretty (22nd)
Eriksson (33rd)
Krejčí (63rd)
Getzlaf (19th)
Perry (28th)
Carter (11th)
Marchand (71th)
Zuccarello (undrafted)
Stone (178th)
Josi (38th)
Simmonds (61st)
O'Reilly (33rd)
Jokinen (192nd)
Hoffman (130th)

 

[major major]

I have to say I much prefer using the standard 30 #1C definition. It gets kind of pointless when people insist on only Kopitar and Getzlaf-type guys qualifying. In general the squishier the definitions the more annoying it is to discuss. And we already have a squishy term "elite center" that's in use for the top guys.

Good point. But what do you look at? Just the previous season? The last two? Entire careers? Where does that line get drawn?

You can do it for all of those. You say "Derrick Brassard has #1C production over the last 3 years", and so forth.

And you can say "Derrick Brassard is a #1C in terms of production but not in terms of overall value" and so forth (not my opinion). It just gives us a solid starting point we can agree on and make the necessary subjective adjustments from there.

 

[darko]

I expect Brassard to hit 60 points easily. If Zibby is Zibby, which I hope he won't pull what he normally does, he'll come into next season in shape and not take forever to score. Should hit 40-45 points next season. He's one player that most of the season will frustrate you, wanting more. Also needs to shoot a lot more. Has a tremendous shot, needs to utilize it more.

Here's hoping the Rangers didn't can us.

Would you make this same prediction if Ziba was still a Senator?

He had 51 points last season. Anything less than that would be a disappointment.

 

[darko]

Doesn't really matter how I define it, because to most sane and rational people, there is not 30 of them just because there's 30 teams.

So you have to be PPG. Cool.

 

[major major]

Age is all Stepan got on Brassard I'd say. In what other aspect of the game is Stepan better? Maybe in the d-zone, but it's not enough to make up for what he lacks in other areas. Like consistency, faceoff, playoff, PP etc. ONLY reason to keep Stepan over Brassard imo is the age factor.

I don't know the Rangers well enough to make an overall comparison, but Stepan has amazing numbers in assist scoring rate and primary assist scoring rate, and ranks well ahead of Brassard in 5 on 5 assists and points, and 5 on 5 scoring rate.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Seemed like you where counting up high picks that you couldn´t get your hands on without an pick. My bad if you meant it the other way.

And of course the higher the pick the better chance you have to get an great player. No ones gonna argue that. But if you have good scouting and patience with development you can find the likes off one of these 27 players who where in picked outside the top 10, first round or undrafted and still was top 50 in scoring last year:
Benn (129th)
Karlsson (15th pick)
Pavelski (205th)
Gaudreau (104th)
Panarin (undrafted)
Kuznetsov (26th)
Burns (20th)
Tarasenko (16th)
Bergeron (45th)
Giroux (22nd)
Letang (62nd)
Kucherov (58th)
Forsberg (11th)
Pacioretty (22nd)
Eriksson (33rd)
Krejčí (63rd)
Getzlaf (19th)
Perry (28th)
Carter (11th)
Marchand (71th)
Zuccarello (undrafted)
Stone (178th)
Josi (38th)
Simmonds (61st)
O'Reilly (33rd)
Jokinen (192nd)
Hoffman (130th)

Ofc some players will turn out great but its 95% luck after the 1st or atleast the 2nd round. So maybe 1 late pick turn into an elite player every 2nd year? Its not the way teams build championship teams. Pens, LA and Chi all have top picks leading them to championships. My point isnt that you cant find good players late in the draft, if you wanna win, you pretty much have to tank in todays nhl.

Sid and Malkin arguably the two best centers in the league. Fleury in net. Toews one of the best twoway centers since he came into the league. Kane lead league in scoring, Doughty won Norris. All top picks on teams who have dominated the league for a long time now. Tanking is by far the best way to turn into a contender and nothing comes close to it.