Confirmed Signing with Link: [NJD] Dougie Hamilton signs with the Devils (7 years, $9M AAV)

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

The Devil's have been uncompetitive for 9 seasons and this mediocre group of assets is what they have to show for it, the only thing consistent is that they can sustain failure just as long. They are almost Buffalo bad, they rangers started their rebuild after New Jersey and have blitzed by them but yeah I guess it's normal to take half a decade to rebuild and still look a bottom feeder.

Again, you're clueless. The DEvils have one of the best cores in the NHL

the Rangers started their rebuild after and also got Panarin for free. They also had a ton more assets to sell off than NJ did and got 4 or 5 extra first round picks out of it. Not to mention Adam Fox who forced his way to NYR....hell, I'd HOPE the RAngers were "ahead" of NJ when they had all those advantages....

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

He is neither of those things. The end.

Sure he isnt.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

Hedman salary isn’t a comparable because he’s ridiculously underpaid.

It’s like saying that Svechnikov is grossly overpaid because MacKinnon makes 6.3m and Pasta makes 6.6m and they’re better.

I get thinking 9m is too much, I don’t think Carolina was wrong if they set 7-8m as a limit considering where there cap is now. 6.5m is hilariously delusional, Skjei makes 5.25m while getting no Norris votes and you’re paying Gardiner 4.05m so I don’t know if I need a lecture on the wonders of the Hurricanes’ defense budget.

Except Hedman's contract isn't underpaid though. There were two reasons he signed that deal, no state income tax in Florida, and 7 million aav allows Tampa to keep their core together.

If you want to get caught up in the optics of $9 million vs $6.5 million that's fine, but there are other things to consider. You have to remember the 6.5 would have been 8 years instead of 7 that NJ signed. The longer the contract the less the aav should be. And when you compare NC's state taxes to NJ's for his salary, 6.5 and 9 aren't as far apart as you think.

Also, at $9 million aav for a defenseman Dougie's age, it is an aav that does not hold up well. You look at defenseman in their early-mid 30's making high dollar, including a player currently on NJ's roster, either/both the contract is seeing as terrible or the player is on a non-contending team. In fact, of all defensmen making over 8 million aav, only 3 of them are on teams considered contenders (Makar/Carlson/Pietrangelo), and they are much more of a #1 than in my opinion Dougie is. And you have to remember with Carolina, Dougie was playing #3 minutes in games that mattered, which makes 9 aav insane.

And yes, Skjei's contract, even though he is a top 4 pairing dman, is high for his overall production. But two things to consider is Carolina didn't sign him to that contract, NYR did, and he'll only be 30 years old when the contract expires in 3 years. Also, that is ultimately a movable contract if it came down to it, although I don't think he's going anywhere at this point. And yes, the Gardiner contract is painful. He was signed after the team decided to move on from Calvin Da Haan after he had shoulder problems, and the contract looked bad after year 1 of 4, which was a point I made in Hurricanes threads about the risk of signing Dougie for too high of a dollar for too long.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t think the 9 is going to matter much. It’s obvious that 8-10 is the new 6-8, the market has changed and more guys are going to be in this range.

It’s the length that’ll hurt the Devils in the end, but they knew that when they signed it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So you're saying the Devils are paying $9 million a year for a guy who is "league average" defensively?

Yes, and this post is an absolutely fair and non-salty evaluation of what he is:

In the end yes. I’m one of Dougie’s biggest supporters on the Canes board and that’s how I saw him. When making the argument for keeping him when everyone curiously turned on him the back half of last season, that was one of my points. No one cared that he was just average defensively the first two and a half years because his pp time and general offensive effort may have been the one thing you could point to that helped us turn the corner to a playoff team. It can’t be understated that he changed the Canes. It absolutely made you forgive the defense. We hadn’t been in the playoffs in a decade and no one single player imo changed that more than Dougie.

Then our group (canes board) became a bunch of salty playoff vets who needed Dougie to be leading the way defensively in the playoffs and didn’t care how much he did to get us there in the first place. He was the same guy the whole time, his average d was fine for two and a half years and then it just wasn’t and he became a scapegoat. Completely took it for granted what he had done. Part of me hopes we bomb this season just because of that....until we traded our first and now I’ll shit a brick if that happens.

If you come at this like he’s a number one defenseman including in his own end you’re gonna be frustrated. He’s not that. He’s a number one D the way Karlsson maybe was a few years ago. Not bad but if he’s your shut down guy you’re in trouble. Even if he wasn’t partners with Slavin the fact the Canes have Slavin and Pesce made Dougie’s D irrelevant. We were the perfect team for him.

**I’ll add part of what makes people frustrated with Dougie defensively is his nonchalant posture. There’s something about the way he carries himself on the ice that makes him look like he’s never giving 100%, especially in his zone. You have to accept that about him and when things are going good you don’t think about it. When things are going bad it will eat at some fans, that’s something that turns some people against him.

To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with being league average defensively. That doesn’t mean terrible, it means average. You just have to be prepared for an average defender player skating heavy minutes against top lines. It’s going to have its ups and downs.

 

[HyperX]

I don’t think the 9 is going to matter much. It’s obvious that 8-10 is the new 6-8, the market has changed and more guys are going to be in this range.

It’s the length that’ll hurt the Devils in the end, but they knew that when they signed it.

Im not so sure itll hurt at the end as much as some think.

Hamilton doesnt play a physical game nor depends on speed; and his natural offensive abilities should still shine through even if he ended up a bottom-pair defenseman for us in 5-6 years from now.

He would have to fall off quite the hill in order for NJ to move him.. or theyre on the very cusp of winning a Cup and need extra dollars, in which case attaching a 1st and some prospects to a 1-2 year deal isnt unheard of

 

[HyperX]

Yes, and this post is an absolutely fair and non-salty evaluation of what he is:




To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with being league average defensively. That doesn’t mean terrible, it means average. You just have to be prepared for an average defender player skating heavy minutes against top lines. It’s going to have its ups and downs.

To be fair, defensive metrics are going the way of including transitional play and so the Pelech's and Vlasic's of the world are becoming farther and fewer in between.

Not that I think defensively strong dmen are disappearing, just that they arent as strong in the same areas as they were just ten years ago; best example being Hedman who has never been spectacular defensively, but since he moves the puck so well hes attributed with incredible defense. McDonagh on the other hand is a true defensive stalwart yet sometimes sees lower defensive metrics

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

FYI league average defensively with the offensive ability that he possesses means Dougie is a top ~15 DMan


....which is what we've been arguing this entire time.

 

[tarheelhockey]

To be fair, defensive metrics are going the way of including transitional play and so the Pelech's and Vlasic's of the world are becoming farther and fewer in between.

Not that I think defensively strong dmen are disappearing, just that they arent as strong in the same areas as they were just ten years ago; best example being Hedman who has never been spectacular defensively, but since he moves the puck so well hes attributed with incredible defense. McDonagh on the other hand is a true defensive stalwart yet sometimes sees lower defensive metrics

Ideally you don’t want Dougie as your transitional QB. Not that he can’t do it, but it’s not his strength and he’s prone to goofy stuff like sending the puck into blank space inside your own zone.

He really should be paired with a guy who can lock it down defensively and has solid puck skills. McDonagh is actually a good example of someone who would pair well with him, while being less than a top-tier D in his own right.

FYI league average defensively with the offensive ability that he possesses means Dougie is a top ~15 DMan


....which is what we've been arguing this entire time.

I’m not arguing against that. I think he was right in that 15-20 range the past couple of years, all things considered.

Top-5, though? That’s just nonsensical. Some of these metrics analysts really live up to the stereotypes when they say stuff like that.

 

[Guttersniped]

Except Hedman's contract isn't underpaid though. There were two reasons he signed that deal, no state income tax in Florida, and 7 million aav allows Tampa to keep their core together.

If you want to get caught up in the optics of $9 million vs $6.5 million that's fine, but there are other things to consider. You have to remember the 6.5 would have been 8 years instead of 7 that NJ signed. The longer the contract the less the aav should be. And when you compare NC's state taxes to NJ's for his salary, 6.5 and 9 aren't as far apart as you think.

Also, at $9 million aav for a defenseman Dougie's age, it is an aav that does not hold up well. You look at defenseman in their early-mid 30's making high dollar, including a player currently on NJ's roster, either/both the contract is seeing as terrible or the player is on a non-contending team. In fact, of all defensmen making over 8 million aav, only 3 of them are on teams considered contenders (Makar/Carlson/Pietrangelo), and they are much more of a #1 than in my opinion Dougie is. And you have to remember with Carolina, Dougie was playing #3 minutes in games that mattered, which makes 9 aav insane.

And yes, Skjei's contract, even though he is a top 4 pairing dman, is high for his overall production. But two things to consider is Carolina didn't sign him to that contract, NYR did, and he'll only be 30 years old when the contract expires in 3 years. Also, that is ultimately a movable contract if it came down to it, although I don't think he's going anywhere at this point. And yes, the Gardiner contract is painful. He was signed after the team decided to move on from Calvin Da Haan after he had shoulder problems, and the contract looked bad after year 1 of 4, which was a point I made in Hurricanes threads about the risk of signing Dougie for too high of a dollar for too long.

If Brent Burns got this contract at the same age it would have started in 2013-14 and the last season of the deal would have been in 2019-20.

If John Carlson got this deal at the same age it would have started in 2018-19 and have four seasons left.

The age curve just has to hang in there. Him being overpaid is a given, he’s a UFA. My point about Skjei & Gardiner is even a team as careful and strict about their cap as Carolina will have non-value contracts on their roster. In the case of Skjei it’s arguably for a necessary player.

Hamilton’s production means this isn’t even a particularly bad contract now, which is miraculous for UFA defenseman contract. Just because you can point to better contracts or point to how this deal has risks and downsides in the end doesn’t particularly matter to me. No NHL team, in real life, has a roster free of problem contracts. He’s helpful now The contract some are claiming he “deserves”, 6.5m (lol), is ludicrously too low in light of what players are signing now.

Hedman’s 8 year/7.875m deal started in 2017-18 but he signed it in July 2016. Tampa does get team friendly-ish deals but they have simply been smart enough to lock Hedman up before he blew up… twice.

At age 26, he was coming of 47 point season and for only the second time he received Norris votes. He came in 7th, getting 62 votes, in his 7th year in the NHL, the only other season he even got any votes was two years earlier. Hedman had received 42 Norris votes in 2013-14, when scored a career high 55 points, and came in 9th.

55 points was his career high (& outlier) until 2016-17, when he scored 72 points and came in 3rd in Norris voting, behind Karlsson (2nd) & Burns (the winner). He also had a career high 24:30 ATOI, after his previous season’s 23:04 ATOI got him over 22 minutes for the 1st time. If Hedman signed his deal in 2017 off-season then I’m betting he would have gotten more.

 

[Eggtimer]

again why is everyone so concerned about this?

the Devils D has been bad, especially their RHD depth.

Dougie Hamilton is a very good RHD, in his prime. They were able to acquire him for no assets...only cap space, which they have plenty of. He is one of the best transition and PP DMen in the league and will help the Devils greatly. The end.

This post should just be the automatic response to anyone crapping in the deal . Says it perfectly .

 

[hidek91]

again why is everyone so concerned about this?

the Devils D has been bad, especially their RHD depth.

Dougie Hamilton is a very good RHD, in his prime. They were able to acquire him for no assets...only cap space, which they have plenty of. He is one of the best transition and PP DMen in the league and will help the Devils greatly. The end.

Nothing personal but this is 10th time on this forum when you say something along those lines. Just because you have lots of cap space (which, by the way, is a resource too since it's limited), doesn't mean that you're in position to throw it left and right, GMs should use cap space wisely, no matter how much cap space they have left. Also while current cap space isn't crucial because we're not contenders yet, this deal will affect our situation when our top prospects will hit their primes.

And while I agree that Devils' D has been bad, the d-men with the similar sets of strength and weaknesses are already here (Smith and Severson), it's the Slavin/Vlasic type that would make the difference because as of now we are hoping that sloppy seconds from WSH and COL will be the steady defensive presence and this may not end up being the reality.

With that being said, I'd rather do this deal than not do this deal altogether but there's a risk involved and also the fit isn't perfect.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Nothing personal but this is 10th time on this forum when you say something along those lines. Just because you have lots of cap space (which, by the way, is a resource too since it's limited), doesn't mean that you're in position to throw it left and right, GMs should use cap space wisely, no matter how much cap space they have left. Also while current cap space isn't crucial because we're not contenders yet, this deal will affect our situation when our top prospects will hit their primes.

And while I agree that Devils' D has been bad, the d-men with the similar sets of strength and weaknesses are already here (Smith and Severson), it's the Slavin/Vlasic type that would make the difference because as of now we are hoping that sloppy seconds from WSH and COL will be the steady defensive presence and this may not end up being the reality.

With that being said, I'd rather do this deal than not do this deal altogether but there's a risk involved and also the fit isn't perfect.

Signing a top 15 DMan in the league for nothing but cap space is a "wise" move. Period.

 

[Sky04]

Again, you're clueless. The DEvils have one of the best cores in the NHL

the Rangers started their rebuild after and also got Panarin for free. They also had a ton more assets to sell off than NJ did and got 4 or 5 extra first round picks out of it. Not to mention Adam Fox who forced his way to NYR....hell, I'd HOPE the RAngers were "ahead" of NJ when they had all those advantages....

The advantage is that they're a better run team, the Devil's have one of the best cores in the NHL? Maybe if the NHL consisted of the bottom 10 teams in the league only.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

The advantage is that they're a better run team, the Devil's have one of the best cores in the NHL? Maybe if the NHL consisted of the bottom 10 teams in the league only.

Plenty of other publications rate them similarly. Like I said, it's clear you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

If Brent Burns got this contract at the same age it would have started in 2013-14 and the last season of the deal would have been in 2019-20.

If John Carlson got this deal at the same age it would have started in 2018-19 and have four seasons left.

The age curve just has to hang in there. Him being overpaid is a given, he’s a UFA. My point about Skjei & Gardiner is even a team as careful and strict about their cap as Carolina will have non-value contracts on their roster. In the case of Skjei it’s arguably for a necessary player.

Hamilton’s production means this isn’t even a particularly bad contract now, which is miraculous for UFA defenseman contract. Just because you can point to better contracts or point to how this deal has risks and downsides in the end doesn’t particularly matter to me. No NHL team, in real life, has a roster free of problem contracts. He’s helpful now The contract some are claiming he “deserves”, 6.5m (lol), is ludicrously too low in light of what players are signing now.

Hedman’s 8 year/7.875m deal started in 2017-18 but he signed it in July 2016. Tampa does get team friendly-ish deals but they have simply been smart enough to lock Hedman up before he blew up… twice.

At age 26, he was coming of 47 point season and for only the second time he received Norris votes. He came in 7th, getting 62 votes, in his 7th year in the NHL, the only other season he even got any votes was two years earlier. Hedman had received 42 Norris votes in 2013-14, when scored a career high 55 points, and came in 9th.

55 points was his career high (& outlier) until 2016-17, when he scored 72 points and came in 3rd in Norris voting, behind Karlsson (2nd) & Burns (the winner). He also had a career high 24:30 ATOI, after his previous season’s 23:04 ATOI got him over 22 minutes for the 1st time. If Hedman signed his deal in 2017 off-season then I’m betting he would have gotten more.

You can say what you said about Carlson and Burns, but these guys at the end of the day got their contracts based off of point production (maybe not Carlson, he's actually pretty decent on D), which is what the NJ fans in this thread keep emphasizing when talking about Hamilton. SJ and WSH also knew full well the age of the players.

And Skjei, and I'll even say Gardiner aren't grossly overpaid. Skjei's probably a $4-4.5 million player. Gardiner, much like Hamilton, was coming off of several statistically successful seasons for Toronto prior to us signing him, despite what everyone was saying about his defensive play, like Hamilton. And no, I'm not comparing Hamilton's overall play to Gardiner because that would be silly. I'm just saying Gardiner had limitations that made his contract unnecessary for Carolina

And I would say at this point, Carolina doesn't have any horrible contracts. Don't know if you watch The Hockey Guy on youtube, but he recently did a video on the worst contracts for each team. He said there were a couple teams that he felt didn't have horrible contracts, with Carolina being one of them. I think we have several players above what they should be (Skjei, Gardiner, Nino, Staal), but none of them are grossly overpaid for what they produce. And that's the point of why Carolina ultimately didn't sign him. It wasn't because the cap team was too cheap, it was because they didn't see the value of signing him for $7 million + aav when they couldn't rely on him to play top pairing minutes when it mattered.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

FYI league average defensively with the offensive ability that he possesses means Dougie is a top ~15 DMan


....which is what we've been arguing this entire time.

So to counter this statement, if a defenseman is leaguewide average offensively with elite defensive abilities, does that also make him a top 15 dman?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

So to counter this statement, if a defenseman is leaguewide average offensively with elite defensive abilities, does that also make him a top 15 dman?

no because there arent that many DMen who are elite offensively.

I am just looking for somebody, anybody who is arguing that Hamilton isn't a great player to provide me a list of TWENTY better NHL DMen currently. Please.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Receipts please. I don’t remember hearing about other teams trying to sign Dougie besides NJ and Carolina

Chicago and Philadelphia had interest but traded for Jones and Ellis respectively before UFA opened up

 

[MartyOwns]

Nothing personal but this is 10th time on this forum when you say something along those lines. Just because you have lots of cap space (which, by the way, is a resource too since it's limited), doesn't mean that you're in position to throw it left and right, GMs should use cap space wisely, no matter how much cap space they have left. Also while current cap space isn't crucial because we're not contenders yet, this deal will affect our situation when our top prospects will hit their primes.

And while I agree that Devils' D has been bad, the d-men with the similar sets of strength and weaknesses are already here (Smith and Severson), it's the Slavin/Vlasic type that would make the difference because as of now we are hoping that sloppy seconds from WSH and COL will be the steady defensive presence and this may not end up being the reality.

With that being said, I'd rather do this deal than not do this deal altogether but there's a risk involved and also the fit isn't perfect.

when you have tons of cap space, you should "throw it" in the areas that need the most attention. RD was a glaring need, so we threw money at it.

if we gave danault (who is a terrific center) a huge contract this offseason, that would be a massive boner because we have hughes and nico. that's the difference.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

Chicago and Philadelphia had interest but traded for Jones and Ellis respectively before UFA opened up

You're kind of proving my point that no other teams actually offered Hamilton a contract besides Carolina and NJ.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

no because there arent that many DMen who are elite offensively.

I am just looking for somebody, anybody who is arguing that Hamilton isn't a great player to provide me a list of TWENTY better NHL DMen currently. Please.

There also aren't that many elite defensive defenseman.

Since you are defining a top 15 defenseman seemingly based on scoring, then you win. I made a list of particular players I would want on the Hurricanes roster for various reason rather it be they are a true #1 defenseman, or could play a #3 in a role similar to what Dougie played with us. You just didn't agree with it.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

There also aren't that many elite defensive defenseman.

Since you are defining a top 15 defenseman seemingly based on scoring, then you win. I made a list of particular players I would want on the Hurricanes roster for various reason rather it be they are a true #1 defenseman, or could play a #3 in a role similar to what Dougie played with us. You just didn't agree with it.

no one did because it was a nonsense list.

For example, present day Drew Doughty, John Klingberg, and Morgan Rielly are nowhere CLOSE to as good as Dougie

and Josh Morrissey and Colton Parayko lmao

 

[NJ DevLolz]

You're kind of proving my point that no other teams actually offered Hamilton a contract besides Carolina and NJ.

Your point was that no one had interest. Which was false.

 

[Penaltykiller17]

Your point was that no one had interest. Which was false.

I'm sure at least a dozen teams had interest, but when it came time to put pen to paper there were only two teams, which I have not been proven wrong.