Rumor: Nils Lundkvist requests a trade

[TGWL]

I’m a ranger fan and I agree. He was never considered a top 2 wing in the draft.

I still think the poster meant top 2 wing position on a team, like a top 6 role, but just worded it wrong. At least, that's what I am going with.

 

[TommyDangles]

but Nils is > Kidney

Kidney is 19 coming off a great season.

Nils just turned 22 coming off a very underwhelming NHL/AHL season.

Don't see how Nils > Kidney

 

[RationalExpectations]

Kidney is 19 coming off a great season.

Nils just turned 22 coming off a very underwhelming NHL/AHL season.

Don't see how Nils > Kidney

Well let us say Lundkvist is closer to the NHL, he has been improving his totals in Sweden in D+1 and D+2, was quite stable in D+3. I was high on him at the draft and this is true he has not met expectations in his first season in North America in D+4.

Kidney on the other hand will only start D+2 but is a recent 2nd rounder who has had an impressive season that verw few people expected him to have.

Even looking at players at the end of D+1 it is hard to know if you prefer one or the other, even though I'd give the advantage to Lundkvist because he is a D and was playing with men, while Kidney played Juniors and I am not sure whether he projects to be a center or a winger should he reach next level.

I don't know if one is worth more than the other, I guess it really depends on team needs.

 

[Chose]

Am away in the real world til late tomorrow
I still want to do my revised larger scenario, which I will unveil then

Howev, short/quick thought came to mind, for separate consideration.....

Nils
Jones
Skinner
Khodorenko

for

Barron
Ridley

rationale:
Rangers have surplus, Habs lack depth
BOTH Nils + Jones at least >> Barron
Skinner big guy = Barron/Schneider lite makes up a bit for loss of size
Ridley at least >> >> Khodorenko

Rangers wind up w/Lindgren, KAM, Robertson at LD wiith Scanlin challenging pushing sell high on Lindgren delayed 1 yr
at RD Fox, Trouba, Schneider
Barron hangs until Trouba moved no later than 2 seasons hence

Rs also get decent mid level C prospect

Habs get big D upgrade, take a hit at pivot depth


thoughts?

til tom

I appreciate your efforts @Bern, but you should focus a little more analysis on the other side.
Montreal has 16 wingers for 12 jobs, and are laid agaisn't the cap voluntarily, There is NO way we take Skinner in such a trade.

And quite frankly, 6 players deals don't happen often. How about a trade with only Lundkvist and its value returning back, around Kidney or Mysak.

Also, we are in need of depht at RHD, why would we part with one proven one, for an unproven, unhappy one ?

And finally, LHD is our position of strenght, why would we want Jones ? (Ghule, Hutson, Harris, Norlinder, Xhekaj, Strubble) [Not to mention Matheson & Edmundson]

Try again...

Kidney + 3rd vs Lundkvist would be more on point... Without trading half of the team.
And this, is taking into account you guys want/need a waiver exempt promising C...

Kidney == 100+ points last year in junior, which was unexpected of him...
And is only 19.
Former 2nd rounder moving up. We're close to Nils' value. (late first dropping)
What did the latter do last year to still be considered "blue chip" ?
Even at his draft, wasn't he in the late 1sts ? He is not a top10 pick, and didn't play well enough to move to blue chip status...

The Nemeth argument isn't strong. Didn't Schneider surpass Lundkvist, also playing 3rd pair with Nemeth ?
A blue chip being surpassed by a lesser player after having been given the same chance sees his value decline...

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Kidney is 19 coming off a great season.

Nils just turned 22 coming off a very underwhelming NHL/AHL season.

Don't see how Nils > Kidney

One was one of the best dmen in the SHL, against men, at 20. Kideny had a good season against kids as a 19-year-old.

Wasn't underwhelming his first season in NA, just average. Which isn't unheard of for a European player coming to NA in his first season, and he was 21 all season.

 

[TommyDangles]

One was one of the best dmen in the SHL, against men, at 20. Kideny had a good season against kids as a 19-year-old.

Wasn't underwhelming his first season in NA, just average. Which isn't unheard of for a European player coming to NA in his first season.

"One WAS one of the best dmen in the SHL, against men, at 20"

Key word

Tim Erixon was also one of the most impressive young dmen in the SHL at age 20. Things change.

He had one of the lowest +/- in Hartford. It was very underwhelming for the hype he had as one of the best defensive prospects. His stock has dropped since. Kidney's stock has risen.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

"One WAS one of the best dmen in the SHL, against men, at 20"

Key word

Tim Erixon was also one of the most impressive young dmen in the SHL at age 20. Things change.

He had one of the lowest +/- in Hartford. It was very underwhelming for the hype he had as one of the best defensive prospects. His stock has dropped since. Kidney's stock has risen.

Yes. I'm trying to compare them at similar ages. You were bringing up the player at 19.

 

[TGWL]

I appreciate your efforts @Bern, but you should focus a little more analysis on the other side.
Montreal has 16 wingers for 12 jobs, and are laid agaisn't the cap voluntarily, There is NO way we take Skinner in such a trade.

And quite frankly, 6 players deals don't happen often. How about a trade with only Lundkvist and its value returning back, around Kidney or Mysak.

Also, we are in need of depht at RHD, why would we part with one proven one, for an unproven, unhappy one ?

And finally, LHD is our position of strenght, why would we want Jones ? (Ghule, Hutson, Harris, Norlinder, Xhekaj, Strubble) [Not to mention Matheson & Edmundson]

Try again...

Kidney + 3rd vs Lundkvist would be more on point... Without trading half of the team.
And this, is taking into account you guys want/need a waiver exempt promising C...

Kidney == 100+ points last year in junior, which was unexpected of him...
And is only 19.
Former 2nd rounder moving up. We're close to Nils' value. (late first dropping)
What did the latter do last year to still be considered "blue chip" ?
Even at his draft, wasn't he in the late 1sts ? He is not a top10 pick, and didn't play well enough to move to blue chip status...

The Nemeth argument isn't strong. Didn't Schneider surpass Lundkvist, also playing 3rd pair with Nemeth ?
A blue chip being surpassed by a lesser player after having been given the same chance sees his value decline...

Schneider has more size than Lundkvist. That kept him around the line-up. He's a bigger body and he's tougher. Schneider got walked constantly during one on one by any player who slowed it down and actually deked. He's good at gap control to force players wide and take away space, but when players attacked him straight on and showed dangle, dangle, dangle, he got walked. He was pretty raw. You can see the potential with his size. But skill wise, I wouldn't say he was better than Lundkvist. He just fit the role better.

 

[TGWL]

"One WAS one of the best dmen in the SHL, against men, at 20"

Key word

Tim Erixon was also one of the most impressive young dmen in the SHL at age 20. Things change.

He had one of the lowest +/- in Hartford. It was very underwhelming for the hype he had as one of the best defensive prospects. His stock has dropped since. Kidney's stock has risen.

I don't put much stock in defensemen stats in the AHL. We've seen players play poor in the AHL and then make roster, looking like NHL players. AHL is though for defenders. Pinching is happening all over the place. Partners are constantly being changed by call-ups.

Brady Skjei didn't look amazing in the AHL. Ryan McDonagh didn't looking amazing in the AHL. In general, Rangers don't look amazing in the AHL. A player like Michael Saucer who I thought looked good in the AHL to the point where he got a shot on the main roster, and he didn't have the 1st round pedigree.

To me the more concerning part is it seems players jumped him on the depth list.

 

[TommyDangles]

Yes. I'm trying to compare them at similar ages. You were bringing up the player at 19.

Because Kidney is 19 lol. Lundqvist isn't anymore.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Because Kidney is 19 lol. Lundqvist isn't anymore.

So then comparing the player's seasons to gauge how good they are currently maybe wasn't the best way to compare the players since one is older and playing much better competition?

 

[TommyDangles]

I don't put much stock in defensemen stats in the AHL. We've seen players play poor in the AHL and then make roster, looking like NHL players. AHL is though for defenders. Pinching is happening all over the place. Partners are constantly being changed by call-ups.

Brady Skjei didn't look amazing in the AHL. Ryan McDonagh didn't looking amazing in the AHL. In general, Rangers don't look amazing in the AHL. A player like Michael Saucer who I thought looked good in the AHL to the point where he got a shot on the main roster, and he didn't have the 1st round pedigree.

To me the more concerning part for me is it seems players jumped him on the depth list.

You're missing the point. Nobody is saying there isn't potential for him to become a good defenceman. We're talking about his value currently. His value has dropped since last year, because of his underwhelming performance.

 

[TommyDangles]

So then comparing the player's seasons to gauge how good they are currently maybe wasn't the best way to compare the players since one is older and playing much better competition?

How else do you determine a player's value lol? So we should ignore his recent performance and only focus on what he did years ago? How does that make any sense?

Do you not think his value has dropped at all since last year?

 

[Chose]

So then comparing the player's seasons to gauge how good they are currently maybe wasn't the best way to compare the players since one is older and playing much better competition?

At his age, as a blue chip, shouldn't he be knocking at the NHL's door if he was that good ?

Schneider has more size than Lundkvist. That kept him around the line-up. He's a bigger body and he's tougher. Schneider got walked constantly during one on one by any player who slowed it down and actually deked. He's good at gap control to force players wide and take away space, but when players attacked him straight on and showed dangle, dangle, dangle, he got walked. He was pretty raw. You can see the potential with his size. But skill wise, I wouldn't say he was better than Lundkvist. He just fit the role better.

I mean, isn't there a way to shield a 6th defenseman who's role would be as a PP specialist, and play him on PP2 at his advantage, when you have guys like Fox and Trouba to help eat the tougher minutes ?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

At his age, as a blue chip, shouldn't he be knocking at the NHL's door if he was that good ?

I mean, isn't there a way to shield a 6th defenseman who's role would be as a PP specialist, and play him on PP2 at his advantage, when you have guys like Fox and Trouba to help eat the tougher minutes ?

Yes. And he would be if he didn't have Fox, Trouba and Schneider in front of him. Unfortunately those are 2 pretty good defenseman, and another top defensive prospect who brings more of what the team needs (Physical play). He would be knocking on the door of most NHL teams.

How else do you determine a player's value lol? So we should ignore his recent performance and only focus on what he did years ago? How does that make any sense?

Do you not think his value has dropped at all since last year?

By potential? That Nils probably still has higher of than Kidney. When Kidney has a good season in the AHL, then we can talk about how Kidney is so much better. Till then he's just another Junior playing kid having a good season. Both players have accomplished playing well against lower competition.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Canucks interested in Nils Lundkvist

 

[TommyDangles]

By potential? That Nils probably still has higher of than Kidney. When Kidney has a good season in the AHL, then we can talk about how Kidney is so much better. Till then he's just another Junior playing kid having a good season. Both players have accomplished playing well against lower competition.

That was true last year. We've seen him struggle in the NHL/AHL since though. A younger prospect with a huge improvement in development is worth more than an older prospect going backwards in development.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

That was true last year. We've seen him struggle in the NHL/AHL since though. A younger prospect with a huge improvement in development is worth more than an older prospect going backwards in development.

Fair enough, i guess we disagree with his development. I dont think he went backwards, he struggled at first like a lot of European players do their first season in NA, but played much better toward end when I assume he became more comfortable.

 

[cc]

Canucks interested in Nils Lundkvist

That's not exactly what he said. It was merely mentioned that Nils fits the general criteria of being a right shot dman who is 25 and under.

 

[Chose]

Yes. And he would be if he didn't have Fox, Trouba and Schneider in front of him. Unfortunately those are 2 pretty good defenseman, and another top defensive prospect who brings more of what the team needs (Physical play). He would be knocking on the door of most NHL teams.


By potential? That Nils probably still has higher of than Kidney. When Kidney has a good season in the AHL, then we can talk about how Kidney is so much better. Till then he's just another Junior playing kid having a good season. Both players have accomplished playing well against lower competition.

Isn't Trouba a physical menace enough ?
Schneider was listed like 3 spots behind Lundkvist on some prospects depth charts.

2022 New York Rangers Top 25 Under 25: Prelude & Honorable Mentions

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Kidney was centering Slafkovsky in the prospect challenge this week on the first line. He scored two goals and had some more points. (In 3 games) Most of the competition was AHL level. He was 7th in the LHJMQ last year.

Riley Kidney	18	F	66	30	70	100

100 points in 66 games.
Senators, Devils and Sabres are known to have a deep prospect pool... Less so for the Rs...

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So Kidney can still prove he can succeed in AHL, whereas Lundkvist sort of failed to shine...
Which one is ahead ?

 

[TGWL]

You're missing the point. Nobody is saying there isn't potential for him to become a good defenceman. We're talking about his value currently. His value has dropped since last year, because of his underwhelming performance.

I didn't miss the point. I didn't call his value extremely high. I'm commenting on the AHL part. Is it true that last year took a dip in his value? Yeah, i'd agree.

At his age, as a blue chip, shouldn't he be knocking at the NHL's door if he was that good ?

I mean, isn't there a way to shield a 6th defenseman who's role would be as a PP specialist, and play him on PP2 at his advantage, when you have guys like Fox and Trouba to help eat the tougher minutes ?

Well, Trouba and Miller are getting the tougher minutes and then Miller ended up with pp2 time. So, there's not a whole lot of room. Plus, it's hard to shield players with PP2 time when our coach takes the 1st unit off with 30 seconds as the puck is sent in our own zone. By the time they can even set up the powerplay is pretty much done. If you go down our roster, we didn't have a lot of production on the second unit. Keeping Lundkvist to shield him on pp2 is a waste. We run only Fox as the Dman on the first unit.

 

[Chose]

Well, Trouba and Miller are getting the tougher minutes and then getting pp2 time. So, there's not a whole lot of room. Plus, it's hard to shield players with PP2 time when our coach takes the 1st unit off with 30 seconds as the puck is sent in our own zone. By the time they can even set up the powerplay is pretty much done.

Trouba's production:

2021-22

New York Rangers

NHL

81

11

28

39

Isn't there room for a blue chip PP friendly prospect for PP2 if he is that good ?

 

[TGWL]

Trouba's production:

2021-22

New York Rangers

NHL

81

11

28

39

Isn't there room for a blue chip PP friendly prospect for PP2 if he is that good ?

I added more info to my post above. The answer is no. The second PP unit is nearly non-existent. Until that changes, I'm going with, no. In my opinion, the changes are less about getting better players and more about the way the unit is utilized.

 

[Chose]

It circles back to management doing very bad at prospect development then.
The R's came back too quickly in winning mode.

The Fox usage on PP and the absence of a PP2 should have triggered Nils' trade before last year...
It was already written on the walls he was not 3rd pair material and that there wasn't any room for him on a suitable role... And he and his agent probably have seen this coming for years. Fox and Trouba were acquired in 2019.

Now his stock has fallen a bit...
And it explains why he holds... Probably not the first time he was speaking with management about it before he played it more strongly.

 

[Chose]

Habs have the 7th deepest propect pools in the league, where the Ranger's is ranked 19th.
I trust HuGo to come out with an out-of-the-box offer Drury will accept.

We need depth at that position and they prefer NHL-ready guys over prospects. Nils would have a chance at top4 and PP minutes, all the while putting pressure on Barron and Mailloux for this spot long term.

I would do most of those:
Roy vs Lundkvist
Kidney + Engstrom (5 points in two games the same day, promoted to SHL, lefty who plays right) vs Lundkvist
Mysak + 3rd vs Lundkvist

From left field:
Mailloux vs Lundkvist
Drafted at similar positions. Both offensive RH Dmen. MTL gets a few years ahead and fill the need of a ready RHD.
And also getting out of that PR nightmare...
Rangers get the equivalent of Lundkvist, 3 years younger, ready when Trouba leaves in a few years.
And gets a few inches in height, while Mailloux stands at 6'3".