DashingDane
Dutch boy
This! People often forget that he rarely dumps the puck like most other players. There is no difference in losing the puck on your stick in the ozone vs dumping it and losing it.
Player Discussion: Nikolaj Ehlers Part III
- Thread starter wpgsilver
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This! People often forget that he rarely dumps the puck like most other players. There is no difference in losing the puck on your stick in the ozone vs dumping it and losing it.
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I'd say Ehler's real weight right now is about 165 lbs, irregardless of what they list him at. He has a smaller frame size, and smaller bones, so he can only carry so much weight without being way to muscle bound, and that would surely effect his speed. He is a finesse and agility type of player, and should remain that way. The most weight I could see Ehler's carrying would be around 180 lbs.
Look at a guy like Gretzky -who has double the point production of anybody that played the game. He was a "bone rack" and from what I read, and he was last on the team's strength and endurance tests. I don't know what he weighed, but I would guess around 175 - 180 tops.
What made Gretzky great was not his speed, shot, or strength-- but it was his "mind" he could make split second decisions and set guys up in half the time an ordinary player could. He could assess the whole ice surface in a split second, and make a play, and put it right on the stick of a scorer, and it was in the net.
You know that isn't true, right?
When a team dumps the puck it is a controlled play and players are prepared for the scenarios that develop out of it. Considering our puck retrieval on dumps it is much more likely we will gain possession of the puck than if a forward turns it over in the offensive zone.
Depending on how the puck is turned over it can cause an odd man rush or a breakaway, and our players are less prepared to react, not expecting a change in possession.
Not saying that Ehlers should change what he is doing, I don't think that he turns the puck over in high risk ways, much. I am just correcting your assertion.
Yeah I might have gone a little overboard with that. He'd probably operate best around 185 - 190 max
DashingDane
Dutch boy
I agree that there are set plays for dumping the puck and that makes it easier to recover it again. I also agree that losing the puck the wrong place can lead to goals against (though I can’t remember when that happened last with Ehlers). I was simply trying to point out that you can’t just look at give aways... flipping the puck out of your own zone isn’t counted but if you carry it and lose it it is. Burns has the most give aways in the league. Does that make him the worst defender? Of course not... you have to look at how much a player has the puck.
And still Ehlers has 37 turnovers (the most of all the Jets forwards) and Laine has 34. It’s the illusion that speedskating can create. Makes people mesmerized by the skating so that they often overlook the clear weaknesses a player has. Pretty much the same applies to Detroit’s Athanasiou, whom by the way is probably even a bit faster skater than Ehlers. An absolutely astonishing skater and has scored some absolutely stunning goals, but is unfortunately even blinder in creating chances to others than Ehlers. Wouldn’t want Athanasiou into the Jets for sure, as there would be an even worse puck carrying speedster than Ehlers is, and it would make the team play way worse than it is at the moment.
I want hockey to be mostly about high IQ team play, quick passing and efficient goal scoring, instead of the the speedskating and trying to create by yourself by puck carrying and dangling. Just horrible hockey to watch when it goes to that. And unfortunately that is what it seems to have been going towards already for a while now. Sad but true.
RageQuit77
Registered User
Nik! Kick Laine's a*** hard!
You're overall more balanced hockey player than Laine.
Godspeed!
Aavco Cup
"I can make you cry in this room"
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^ those turnover stats tell almost nothing. I'm sure Hendricks has fewer than both of them so then he's the better player? Newsflash: if you have the puck a lot more than another player you will here a bigger number. And don't get me started how subjective (and pretty much useless) the NHL turnover stat is.
Fly has the best zone entry % on the Jets. That is what speed does.
Fly has the best zone entry % on the Jets. That is what speed does.
More important would be really how big percentage of his zone entries lead into real high danger scoring chances, or most preferably goals. If the percentage is really small, which I’m pretty sure it is, then most of all those zone entries are pretty much useless waste of time. And many of them lead eventually even to turnovers in Ehlers’s case, so there is that of course too.
Aavco Cup
"I can make you cry in this room"
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What the heck are you trying to do here exactly? Zone entry with control is the goal. The correlation of HDSC from that one thing is extremely high. The highest there is in the game of hockey IIRC.
You are making very weak arguments. And you have no data to back it up. Show your work.
Zone entry with eventual turnover, which happens too often in Ehlers's case, is not the goal for any hockey team.
The real goals are to score goals and also prevent opponents to score goals. Everything else is really secondary stuff, if they don’t lead into clear efficiency in scoring more goals than your opponents do.
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Aavco Cup
"I can make you cry in this room"
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Where's your proof? I call BS.
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Not all turnovers are created equally.
I challenge you to find anyone on this forum who is a Jets fan FIRST (not a Laine fan who's adopted us) to say that Ehlers turnovers are as egregious or as dangerous as Laines.
Laine turns the puck over at the bluelines which is the most high risk area. Ehlers usually turns the puck over deeper in the offensive zone.
Ehlers is a fairly unique player on this Jets team. He is one of the most talented and best at offensive zone entries. You'll see the team defer to him many times when the opposing team is being effective at denying zone entry and dump & chase is not working..
I do not know how to track these stats but at the beginning of the season, it seemed that Ehlers was constantly turning the puck over. (I was very annoyed with him)That seems to have lessened considerably since December.
Hopefully Ehlers game continues to grow and at some point, he can become more effective cycling the puck in the corners.
I do not know how to track these stats but at the beginning of the season, it seemed that Ehlers was constantly turning the puck over. (I was very annoyed with him)That seems to have lessened considerably since December.
Hopefully Ehlers game continues to grow and at some point, he can become more effective cycling the puck in the corners.
MardyBum
Registered User
The coaching staff seemingly created a drop pass zone entry specifically for Ehlers on the PP.
I'd say they're pretty confidant in his ability to carry the puck up the ice.
If you consistently carry the puck up the ice, you'll have more turnovers than a dump and chase player who dumps it as soon as they hit the red line. Most of Ehlers turnovers are him in the lead, with 3-4 guys behind, turning over at the blue line or in the ozone. I'll take those over turnovers in the dzone anyday.
What he really needs to stop doing is trying the fancy play. He'll fly by a defender then try a cross-ice sauce on a 2 on 1 when he should just trust his shot and rip it. He also passes too hard a lot of the time, and he catches guys not ready for it. Needs to use a bit more touch sometimes.
I'd say they're pretty confidant in his ability to carry the puck up the ice.
If you consistently carry the puck up the ice, you'll have more turnovers than a dump and chase player who dumps it as soon as they hit the red line. Most of Ehlers turnovers are him in the lead, with 3-4 guys behind, turning over at the blue line or in the ozone. I'll take those over turnovers in the dzone anyday.
What he really needs to stop doing is trying the fancy play. He'll fly by a defender then try a cross-ice sauce on a 2 on 1 when he should just trust his shot and rip it. He also passes too hard a lot of the time, and he catches guys not ready for it. Needs to use a bit more touch sometimes.
I don’t have statistics of how many of each of their turnovers have lead into goals for the opponent. I will not claim anything for sure because of that. But I don’t think that anyone else can really claim which one has the more dangerous turnovers before we really know the data of how many of them lead into the opponents scoring.
I have to remind you though that a turnover in the offensive end can be in fact a damn dangerous one when it happens exactly when all the five players from your team are still having skating motion forward towards the offensive end of the ice. When the turnover happens exactly then, at worst case all five skaters of your team on the ice might end as practically being pylons and not having any real chance to really help defending the possible turnover.
Sure a turnover at either bluelines can be also extremely dangerous at worst case, but just pointing out that it can be very well the same with the kind of turnovers that Ehlers has been more prone to. And in fact especially earlier this season his turnovers were pretty often those kind of very dangerous ones.
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Aavco Cup
"I can make you cry in this room"
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Ehlers is one of the most dynamic player on the Jets. In the whole NHL in fact. His controlled zone entry ability is something every coach in the NHL would drool over. His own coach has recently gushed about him and his growth as a player in a recent presser. Ehlers is about to bear the fruit of that amazing talent by being paid appropriately next season. We are extremely lucky to have him on our roster as we can all remember holding our breath and crossing our fingers in the 2014 draft
TBH I have no idea why the conversation above is even taking place....... it's absurd IMO
TBH I have no idea why the conversation above is even taking place....... it's absurd IMO
DashingDane
Dutch boy
You are conveniently ignoring that Ehlers has the puck more than other players... Look at lead leaders in giveaways. Most are high minute puck carrying elite defenseman. It's pretty logical really... The more you have the puck the more tunrovers you will have. Doesn't necessarily mean you turn it over at a higher rate than your team mates.
I can think of at least a handful of times Ehlers speedy zone entries has resulted in a hooking/holding penalty to the other team.
TheJadePipe
Registered User
- Mar 8, 2016
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The game is speed. Ehlers is an elite skater, Laine is an elite shooter, Buff is an elite hitter, Wheels is an elite leader. We have lots of boxes checked off as A team. I see Laine try to imitate Ehlers by dangling the puck but he always loses the puck, he doesn’t have that club in is bag... Hockey IQ would suggest he should know to just put the puck on net and play to his strength as he doesn’t have Ehlers stick skills
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Ehlers is the most exciting Jet's player to watch. He's one of the fatest skaters in the NHL, and I'd put him up there with McDavid. He's got all the skill set really-a hard accurate shot, and great stick handler, and can lead an end to end rush.
The only thing Nik needs to work on is his offensive zone play, as he's trying to do a little to much -- like break thru the defense, and often loses the puck.
I'd like to see Nik enter the offensive zone, and skate in large circles, going in behind the net, and letting his teammates get set up in scoring position, then pass it off, --"he's very good at this type play."
He also get's a lot of breakaways with his speed, but needs to convert them more. He's still learning the game, and he will refine some of these areas of his game that need work. Let's not forget that he's only 21 years old, and won't hit his peak for another 5 years, and by that time he will have matured and be an absolute terror for defenders. I'd say Nik is on pace for about a 60-65 point season this year, and that's fantastic. The best part of all this, he comes at a "very affordable contract price." ( 6 mil over 7 yrs)
There are posters on here that try to compare Ehlers to Laine, but they bring totally different skill sets to the Jets. Laine is a bit slow out of the hole, and loses possession of the puck a lot, trying to bit a little to fancy, and doesn't have those puck handling skills that an Ehler's has.
What Laine does have is one of the most accurate shots in the NHL, and he's also deceptively fast "at top end speed"( slow at the start) He will be a game changer for the Jet's and pot many game winning goals. We need his skill set as much as we need Ehlers skill set. Laine is also only 19, and in another 4 years, will be a more complete player. I think he's still learning the game, and will become another "lethal force" for the Jets.
I think Laine will also end up in the 60- 65 point range this year, along with Ehlers, so we really need both of these up and coming superstars. In my mind at this point, they pretty much bring equal value to the team.
We should not try to compare them, as they are totally different type players.
The only thing Nik needs to work on is his offensive zone play, as he's trying to do a little to much -- like break thru the defense, and often loses the puck.
I'd like to see Nik enter the offensive zone, and skate in large circles, going in behind the net, and letting his teammates get set up in scoring position, then pass it off, --"he's very good at this type play."
He also get's a lot of breakaways with his speed, but needs to convert them more. He's still learning the game, and he will refine some of these areas of his game that need work. Let's not forget that he's only 21 years old, and won't hit his peak for another 5 years, and by that time he will have matured and be an absolute terror for defenders. I'd say Nik is on pace for about a 60-65 point season this year, and that's fantastic. The best part of all this, he comes at a "very affordable contract price." ( 6 mil over 7 yrs)
There are posters on here that try to compare Ehlers to Laine, but they bring totally different skill sets to the Jets. Laine is a bit slow out of the hole, and loses possession of the puck a lot, trying to bit a little to fancy, and doesn't have those puck handling skills that an Ehler's has.
What Laine does have is one of the most accurate shots in the NHL, and he's also deceptively fast "at top end speed"( slow at the start) He will be a game changer for the Jet's and pot many game winning goals. We need his skill set as much as we need Ehlers skill set. Laine is also only 19, and in another 4 years, will be a more complete player. I think he's still learning the game, and will become another "lethal force" for the Jets.
I think Laine will also end up in the 60- 65 point range this year, along with Ehlers, so we really need both of these up and coming superstars. In my mind at this point, they pretty much bring equal value to the team.
We should not try to compare them, as they are totally different type players.
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Laine was dangling a lot succesfully during his time in Liiga, so honestly his dangling attempts have nothing to do with Ehlers’s dangling attempts. Ehlers doesn’t even dangle really that often very impressively. He more often uses pure speed to just go past the opponents. If he makes some move it is usually just something very simple and very early before the opponent. It is his skating that makes it possible for him to get past the opponent.
His so called dangling skills have been seen in his breakaways, where he practically has never scored despite of having tons of chances. He is not really even a real dangler with speed, which for example Pavel Bure was at his days. Ehlers is pretty much a pure speedster, with a pretty good shot (not great but still pretty good) and mostly just a bit above average abilities in addition to those. So far he doesn’t make me very excited.
I have been mostly in fact quite disappointed and frustrated with him, as I was seriously hoping for him to start developing with his playmaking and starting to become a player that could use his tremendous speed to help in creating a lot of high danger scoring chances for his teammates. But instead he is really looking like a Maxim Afinogenov clone which is just horribly disappointing for me. The hope I have in him is still that he is at least relatively young, and maybe he can even develop still into a real playmaker kind of a speedster, maybe like Paul Kariya. Unfortunately it’s not very likely though to change as much as a player at that age anymore. Kariya was already an excellent playmaker during his second NHL season, and that was in addition of being an excellent 50 goal goalscorer already then.
Btw, if some people really like to compare Ehlers and Laine, it’s still good to remember that Ehlers is 2 years older than Laine. Laine is already miles ahead of what Ehlers was as a player as a 19 year old (his rookie season). I wasn’t comparing them in any other ways here, but in how easily Laine is condemned for having too many turnovers, but at the same time Ehlers is practically praised for being so great with the puck, but in reality he has even more of giveaways than Laine has.
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