NHLPA not to blame

[thinkwild]

I dont see how the PA can be to blame. Its either the owners or the system. The owners wont admit to exactly their mistakes, so its hard to know what to fix with them exactly. They dont say exactly what is wrong with the system, so we dont know exactly what to fix. Other than every player is making $400k too much somehow. It seems to me the players offer, starting off with a rookie cap about $400k lower, and lowering all the comparable accross the board, should give them the means necessary to fix it.

But since they dont even seem to want to specify exactly the problem, let alone blame, its hard to know. It seems all they want to do is lie for now and then hang on to win a lawsuit if fans support them long enough.

 

[Cawz]

I dont see how the PA can be to blame. Its either the owners or the system.

You cant really blame the players for taking full advantage of the system in place. I fully blame the players for not wanting to sufficiently fix the system though.

 

[thinkwild]

Players have clearly expressed a willingness to negotiate to "fix" the system as you suggest. How can there be only one way? How could the owners have run so amok with the previous system? Its almost as if they said, who cares how ew spend now, the worse off we get now, the more PR we can apply for a cap later. They knowingly extended a system they must've known would send them as they state to losing over $1Billion dollars in the past decade. I have to wonder if they really cared.

 

[mr gib]

You cant really blame the players for taking full advantage of the system in place. I fully blame the players for not wanting to sufficiently fix the system though.

the players have offered up a place to start negotiating - the owners not only locked them out - but have refused to talk at all

 

[djhn579]

the players have offered up a place to start negotiating - the owners not only locked them out - but have refused to talk at all

Bill Daly: Well, what we've been preparing for is to try to negotiate a fair deal with the Players Association for a long time. In March of 1999 - that's five-and-a-half years ago - we went to the Players Association for the 1st time and we said, "We have a problem here. This collective bargaining agreement is not working as certainly as we had hoped or intended it would, and," I would say, as we jointly intended that it would. "And--we have problems, we have financial losses and if we don't address them in the near term, they're going to get worse, so that when we get to the end of the collective bargaining agreement we're going to be in a far worse situation." The Players Association chose not to address it with us at that time.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=101548&hubName=

 

[Cawz]

Players have clearly expressed a willingness to negotiate to "fix" the system as you suggest. How can there be only one way? How could the owners have run so amok with the previous system? Its almost as if they said, who cares how ew spend now, the worse off we get now, the more PR we can apply for a cap later. They knowingly extended a system they must've known would send them as they state to losing over $1Billion dollars in the past decade. I have to wonder if they really cared.

Well, weather they clearly expressed a willingness to negotiate, or simply offered a transparent bandaid proposal is up for debate. Obviously, since its been debated on here non-stop for months now.

But remember, not all owners ran amok. Not all players are greedy. But mix a few bad owners and a few greedy players into a system that allows them to screw everything up, and we get to where we are today.

 

[mr gib]

Well, weather they clearly expressed a willingness to negotiate, or simply offered a transparent bandaid proposal is up for debate. Obviously, since its been debated on here non-stop for months now.

But remember, not all owners ran amok. Not all players are greedy. But mix a few bad owners and a few greedy players into a system that allows them to screw everything up, and we get to where we are today.

amen

 

[Cawz]

The Players Association chose not to address it with us at that time.

And why would they? Its not their problem until they start missing paycheques. They PA has known full well that there were problems, but as long as they're getting paid, what incentives do they have to make changes?

 

[mr gib]

And why would they? Its not their problem until they start missing paycheques. They PA has known full well that there were problems, but as long as they're getting paid, what incentives do they have to make changes?

and the owners have chosen to be coi with the real revenue figures - round and round and round

 

[djhn579]

And why would they? Its not their problem until they start missing paycheques. They PA has known full well that there were problems, but as long as they're getting paid, what incentives do they have to make changes?

I agree. There is no reason for any side to negotiate unless it is in their best interest. 5 years ago, there was no incentive for the NHLPA to negotiate and the NHL was trying to start discussions. Now that the players are locked out, the NHL is most likely going to wait for the the players to re-start negotiations. The NHL will lose money either way, whether the season starts or not, so there is little additional pressure on them. The players though, will not be recieving pay checks. The NHLPA will wait to restart negotiations, but it is now in their best interests to negotiate.


I just wanted to remind Mr Gib that it goes both ways. He wants to say that the NHL doesn't even want to talk now, but ignores that the NHLPA has done the same thing.

 

[djhn579]

and the owners have chosen to be coi with the real revenue figures - round and round and round

Do I have to post another quote from the same transcript where it says the NHL invited the NHLPA to hire their own auditor to go over the NHL's books but the NHLPA refused...

But then, I already posted that in responce to one of your statements...

 

[mr gib]

Do I have to post another quote from the same transcript where it says the NHL invited the NHLPA to hire their own auditor to go over the NHL's books but the NHLPA refused...

But then, I already posted that in responce to one of your statements...

i understand what you're saying - i still would never agree to a cap - we saw our beloved vancouver canucks go from crap to great on the balance sheet under this cba - why can't the others - ( great ball game )

 

[Cawz]

and the owners have chosen to be coi with the real revenue figures - round and round and round

But then theres talk that the PA was offered the books, but they didnt care becasue they didnt want to be partners anyway...

But whatever. What I see is, the owners wont cave due to financial concerns. The players wont cave due to trust issues.

If my company was losing money and asked me to renegotiate my wages, office, nice hours etc, I'd be mad. If it was because my bosses were stupid or crooked, I'd quit and take my talents elsewhere. If it was becasue there were serious problems in the industry, Id understand a bit more. I'd still be pissed though.

Now hockey players cant take their business elsewhere, unless its to a differnt league or career. But they dont trust their bosses enough to tie their salaries to their revenues. I understand, because you dont become a millionaire in the business world without being a little bit crooked. Thats why I wont say I'm pro owner.

But players have to realize that they are playing a game. They are paid more than 99% of the planet to do something they love. The owners are crooked. Whatever. Thats the way its always going to be. But when a system is in place that loses money, its not fundamentally sound.

Tie salaries to set revenues. If revenues go up, salaries go up. Everyones making milllions anyways. If an owner has undisclosed revenues, so be it. If a player has undisclosed sponserships, go ahead. Hell, let them wear pepsi symbols on their goalie pads for all I care.

The players have to make more concessions. They have been taking full advantage of a bad system for years. They have to get over themselves and take that first step. The owners are crooked? Big suprise. I watched Gretzky get traded to pay off personal Pocklington debts. Just sign your million dollar agreement and play hockey. In 5 years, if the owners are screwing you, take it to the Satellite Hotstove and Ron McLean will take care of it.

 

[Cawz]

we saw our beloved vancouver canucks go from crap to great on the balance sheet under this cba - why can't the others

Steal trades. You got Bertuzzi and Naslund for what again? You got 2 out of the top 5 players in the league, and you gave up what? Calgary got a record setting goalie for who? a draft pick? Thats just a good mix of luck and skill, chance and instincts.

Then again, if it was so easy, why didnt Calgary just do it one of the last 7 years?. Remember, for every team going from crap to great, there a team going from great to crap. So you ask, why cant the others? Why didnt Vancouver trade for stud players years ago?

 

[mr gib]

Steal trades. You got Bertuzzi and Naslund for what again? You got 2 out of the top 5 players in the league, and you gave up what? Calgary got a record setting goalie for who? a draft pick? Thats just a good mix of luck and skill, chance and instincts.

Then again, if it was so easy, why didnt Calgary just do it one of the last 7 years?. Remember, for every team going from crap to great, there a team going from great to crap. So you ask, why cant the others? Why didnt Vancouver trade for stud players years ago?

but thats the beauty of the whole thing - aka the rangers - the flyers - the leafs -

 

[thinkwild]

Who said it was easy? Would you respect it if it were?

 

[Cawz]

Who said it was easy? Would you respect it if it were?

Its not easy and it shouldnt be. But when someone says "we saw our beloved vancouver canucks go from crap to great on the balance sheet under this cba - why can't the others", then sounds like its should be pretty easy. Why cant all the teams just be in the top half of the league?

 

[thinkwild]

I saw my beloved Sens go from something underneath a piece of crap to a great team. All the others should recognize that they have the opportunity to succeed too. They cant all at the same time of course. There still is a problem with what to do with the half of the league that doesnt make the playoffs. Equal payrolls or not, half the team will be losers and blaming the system no doubt. But the opportunity exists for them to use the system to succeed. As team after team is showing. Calgary, Ottawa, Vancouver, Carolina, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, team after team from the contraction lists are succeeding or had success while all the big spenders fail.

It should be possible without the whining over money when it doesnt is perhaps a better way of putting it.

 

[mr gib]

I saw my beloved Sens go from something underneath a piece of crap to a great team. All the others should recognize that they have the opportunity to succeed too. They cant all at the same time of course. There still is a problem with what to do with the half of the league that doesnt make the playoffs. Equal payrolls or not, half the team will be losers and blaming the system no doubt. But the opportunity exists for them to use the system to succeed. As team after team is showing. Calgary, Ottawa, Vancouver, Carolina, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, team after team from the contraction lists are succeeding or had success while all the big spenders fail.

It should be possible without the whining over money when it doesnt is perhaps a better way of putting it.

hey dood - i've been to ottawa once - why is that arena so far outta town? - didn't bryden have to pay for the offramp too? -

 

[Cawz]

Equal payrolls or not, half the league will be losers and blaming the system no doubt.

How can they blame the system if all things are equal? I dont understand.

 

[thinkwild]

hey dood - i've been to ottawa once - why is that arena so far outta town? - didn't bryden have to pay for the offramp too? -

Well it used to be far out of town. But then we moved the town boundaries to include it so its now part of town. Theres very little green space on the highway to the arena anymore. Its growing like wildfire. Doesnt look like farmland anymore. Lots of real estate money made there.

Sens got shafted just about every conceivable way you could imagine of shafting a team. You name it, they shafted us with it. But we overcame.

The off ramps was another interesting one. I think he added a ticket surcharge to pay for it, but at the end he still seemed to owe the entire amount. With all the new business in the area now, they have agreed to recoup it through land development taxes and such. Dont recall if the surcharge ever stopped.

 

[degroat*]

I saw my beloved Sens go from something underneath a piece of crap to a great team. All the others should recognize that they have the opportunity to succeed too. They cant all at the same time of course. There still is a problem with what to do with the half of the league that doesnt make the playoffs. Equal payrolls or not, half the team will be losers and blaming the system no doubt. But the opportunity exists for them to use the system to succeed. As team after team is showing. Calgary, Ottawa, Vancouver, Carolina, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, team after team from the contraction lists are succeeding or had success while all the big spenders fail.

It should be possible without the whining over money when it doesnt is perhaps a better way of putting it.

The opportunity exists for small market teams to 'use the system to succeed'?

LOL. No.

Any small market team that succeeds does it so despite the system.

 

[thinkwild]

I dont think you have grasped the system yet then. Its hard to see so I cant blame you. St Louis tried to use the system the way you suggest. And yet Carolina, Anaheim, Calgary, Tampa Bay all had more success doing it the right way.

 

[degroat*]

I dont think you have grasped the system yet then. Its hard to see so I cant blame you. St Louis tried to use the system the way you suggest. And yet Carolina, Anaheim, Calgary, Tampa Bay all had more success doing it the right way.

The simple fact that you used the teams that you did as examples to attemp to prove your point says a lot about which one of us hasn't yet grasped the system.

Both Caroinla and Anaheim along with your Wild all have one thing in common... they were one year wonders. All they show is that under the current system is that if you get a hot goaltender in April and May anything can happen... assuming they actually make the playoffs first.

Calgary is well on it's way of keeping the trend going. Tampa on the other hand will be able to keep their team together as along as the CBA lets them. If little changes, Marty St Louis will be dressing up for the Detroit Red Wings getting robbed by Khabibulin of the New York Rangers real soon.

The Blues, just like most of the teams we've already talked about, haven't won a Cup, but you might want to do some research and check out where they rank in playoff wins over the past 6 years or so. When you get done tallying that up and see that the Blues are in the top 6 or 7 despite their poor management.

Let's sum it up for you:

If you have a low payroll, you have to develop very well and get a hot goaltender.

If you have a high payroll, you can poorly manage your team and still be one of the league's better teams.

 

[thinkwild]

You may settle for the success of St Louis. But like al the other big spending teams, they didnt make it to the finals. The only ones that did were ones you want to contract. You'd think one big spending team would make it to challenge one of the elite teams. But they didnt. THey made the playoffs. And again. And again. But for all their spending on missing pieces, they cant seem to get that missing piece. And the teams that do make it dont have any of the most expensive UFAs. Didnt need that big missing piece UFA you think is the system