NHLPA not to blame

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by FlyersFan10*, Oct 18, 2004.

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  1. FlyersFan10*

    FlyersFan10* Guest

    Nobody has any right to be mad at the NHLPA. Fact of the matter is that back in '94, it was Bettman and the owners who decided to lock the players out. It was Bettman and the owners who stated that the salaries and the state of the game were getting out of hand. It was Bettman and the owners who decided that there needed to be a revolutionary change to the way salaries are doled out. It was also Bettman and his negotiating committe that stated that if the last proposal the owners brought forward wasn't accepted, then the season would be lost. The NHLPA never strong armed any owner into ratifying that agreement signed in '94-'95. The way the previous agreement was designed, it was designed to drag things and make things work with regards to keeping salaries in line. However, the New York Rangers blew it for every other team in the league with regards to that agreement. It was the New York Rangers who decided to go spend happy and blow things through the roof. It was the New York Rangers who showed to the rest of the players, agents, and NHLPA how the agreement could be circumvented and how players could extract millions upon millions upon millions of dollars from owners. If you want to start point fingers, start pointing them at teams like the New York Rangers who blew it for everyone else. The NHLPA did nothing wrong. They took advantage of the situation that they were presented. Now, the owners are crying foul and want a salary cap? Why should the idiots who blew the agreement in the first be rewarded for their own stupidity. The players union owes the league nothing. That's the truth of the matter. Luxury Taxes do work and the league can be successful. Let's start laying blame where it should be laid. At the commissioner's feet. The man who has expanded hockey into regions where it will never be successful and will always lose money for owners. The man who failed to negotiate lucrative network deals at a time when hockey was at it's highest interest in the U.S. (the NYR cup run of 1994 and the 2002 Olympics). The man who doesn't use his resources available to him to get this lock out ended.....their names are Gretzky and Lemieux. The man is a complete moron. Blame Bettman for the mess, not the NHLPA.
     
  2. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    oh man - the owner lovers are gonna fry you - well said - couldn't agree more
     
  3. Papadice

    Papadice Registered User

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    I think for the most part it's been pretty much established on these boards that nobody really gives a rats @ss who's to blame... The point isn't about blame... It's about fixing the problem now that it exists... I'm not saying not to blame Bettman because God knows that I hold him responsible for many of the leagues issues, but right now I could care less about blaming anyone... I just want the NHL to start up again, but NOT UNTIL THEIR IS A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT ALLOWS FOR ALL 30 TEAMS, IF RUN PROPERLY TO COMPETE AT AN EQUAL LEVEL... that doesn't mean that all teams will be equal... because there will be some idiots out there that don't know how to run a team... But the financial level playing field should be available for all teams to benefit from IF they manage their teams properly... under the current CBA that doesn't exist... and I for one am willing to wait until it does... no matter how long it takes...
     
  4. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    phone gary then
     
  5. dawgbone

    dawgbone Registered User

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    Nobody is blaming the players for the state of the league.

    The problem is there is a huge difference in revenues between teams, and what one team does, has an impact on all the other teams.

    The owners had all kinds of walk away rights, and abilities to control their spending. The problem is, when teams didn't take advantage of it, it created a huge mess. Because the Rangers and Leafs (just examples) never walked away from player salaries, other teams didn't do it either. It was expected that teams would let players go, which would flood the market, thereby keeping salaries low... it never happened. Teams wouldn't let their guys go (for nothing), so the flood and checks never came about.

    The agreement was extended, in most part due to the recent expansion... makes no sense expanding into a new market, then staging a lockout.

    The players are being blamed now, because they want no part of a cost controlled league. The players insist the league is fine, and that the system works, and it is evident it doesn't. The players are being blamed because they've done nothing in the public eye to show that they are concerned about where the league is heading... all it seems like is that they want their money at the expense of the leauge... whether it's true or not, it doesn't matter, but it's the perception they are giving.

    The owners locking out the players is pretty meaningless... and really doesn't belong in an argument. Without the lockout, there is no reason to have negotiations. Without negotiations, there will not be a solution.
     
  6. dawgbone

    dawgbone Registered User

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    :shakehead

    nice response...
     
  7. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    well its a hot button issue with lotsa passion - i hope the players never come back - bettman is the one who has to go - so you're willing to wait till they fix a system that will be circumvented again by rich owners no matter what they decide - it happens in every sport -

    i just think bettman's had his chance -
     
  8. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    The complete moron that you're referring to that supposedly doesn't use his resources and has failed to negotation lucrative network deals has increased leaguewide revenues by 160% in his time in office. He had increased TV revenue from the $17M to $120M and at the $60M+ it's still at now is still more than 3 times than it was. Under his watch, per game attendance has increased from just over 14K per game to 16,500 per game.

    Yep, he's a complete moron.

    The only thing you said right in your entire post that is that the owners, or at least some of them, are to 'blame'. Unforunately for you, that's completely irrleevent because blaming someone doesn't fix the problems that need to be fixed.

    Oh, and luxury taxes do not work and the MLB is a working example of that. Just like in hockey right now, unless a young team gets hot at the right time, no low payroll team will make a playoff impact. Only one of the 8 MLB playoff teams this year had a payroll less than $75M and that team had a payroll over $50M... this in a league where 4 teams have payrolls under $35M and 3 teams have payrolls over $100M... all of which made the playoffs.
     
  9. mcphee

    mcphee Registered User

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    The fact that the owners have created their own mess is hard to dispute. They have screwed the players systematically in the 50's, traded 2 of the top players of all time for discussing a union, gotten into bed with the union head to further screw past and present players. They've never been a particularly savory bunch. I feel no sympathy for them whatsoever. If there's an altruistic owner out there who gives a crap about the fans, I'm unaware of him. All that being said, I believe that they have to fix their business and regulate salaries. Whether thru a cap, the entry system or arbitration, they have to work a new system. Their shady history has no bearing on the present situation except for the fact that the players don't trust them. As to how they will impose it, I have no idea. The fact that the NHLPA didn't create the mess doesn't matter in the end, as they profited from it.
     
  10. Gee Wally

    Gee Wally Grumpy

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    bingo !


    Because something was agreed to in '94 doesn't make it ok today.

    Things change.


    Hell, there was a time when the whole world believed the world was flat.
     
  11. They are both to blame. Both are just as greedy as the other. No matter what the outcome is, the results will be the same as alsways: The fans lost!
     
  12. FlyersFan10*

    FlyersFan10* Guest

    However, 160% of nothing is still nothing. Let's face it. Bettman could have hit a homerun with regards to the NHL when the New York Rangers won the Stanley Cup. Instead, he decided to focus on labor strife and lock the players out. That seems to be Gary's solution for everything. If the players union doesn't agree with him, lock them out. So, yes, the man is a moron in that sense. Instead of $60 million, he could have played it smart and paralayed that into maybe $200 to $300 million. Yep, that's a dumb@ss in my books.



    On the contrary, blame does fix problems. It identifies who the guilty culprit is with regards to circumventing rules that were put in place. Nobody wants to be a goat and the fact that there would be a blackeye on the franchise would put it under intense scrutiny to be fiscally responsible. But you're right though. Identifying a team that isn't fiscally responsible and blowing it for other teams isn't the right thing to do.

    Considering that this is what, year two of the luxury taxes. It's going to take time to correct. And fact of the matter is that teams are paring payroll. For instance, when you consider that Atlanta was one of the teams with a payroll of something like 75 million and Schuerholz was informed that another 12 million was being cut from the payroll, yeah it's starting to work. The only reason the Yankees and Red Sox end up with larger than life payrolls is because of the separate TV deals they negotiated. For instance, the Yankees have a TV deal with NBC that pays them almost $1 Billion per year. With regards to the other teams in the playoffs, they are all examples of ownership that has spent money wisely, made smart trades, and drafted wise. Hey, I have no problems with franchises that run sufficiently. I don't think players should be capped because the NHL has expanded into markets where hockey cannot be successful. I don't think players salaries should be capped because owners have overspent. I don't think players salaries should be capped because owners themselves have caused themselves to not be financially viable.

    I feel no pity or sympathy for owners. The players plan is a significant plan. Fact of the matter is that the players plan has a drag on salaries, has a revenue sharing plan to help out smaller markets, and also has an entry level cap. More than fair. The owners only have a salary cap. No revenue sharing. So, until there is full revenue sharing amongst owners, then no, a salary cap will never work and players will never accept a cap.

    Contrary to popular belief, hockey is still a market in which the majority of a team's revenue is generated through ticket sales. Don't kid yourself, the NHLPA realizes this and also realizes that ticket prices are too high and payrolls have gone completely absurd. The fact of the matter is that their plan offers a chance to get savings started immediately and to help contribute to the teams in small markets.

    Hey, I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If the NHL Owners were serious about getting a season started, they could be using Gretzky and Lemieux in the negotiations. The fact that they aren't using the two most powerful people in hockey (not to mention have credibility with Bob Goodenow and the NHLPA) to help negotiate a solution speaks in volumes. Fact of the matter is that Bettman has not extended his hand in a partnership with the NHLPA. He has been confrontational and aggressive in his approach.
     
  13. ACC1224

    ACC1224 Registered User

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    when does NBC show this Billion dollars worth of programming????? I've never seen it.
     
  14. Whakahere

    Whakahere Registered User

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    no point in talking about if's. An if statement is just that .. an If. You just can't be sure of the outcome. I think you can't say if statements because in the real word you have no idea how things have turned out.




    Blame can not fix problems. All blame does is point the finger who did wrong. If I killed someone I could be blamed ... but it could not fix the problem that I killed someone.



    yes i agree with you that a luxury tax could work but only if each comany has the same working income. that means you can set a luxury tax but you have to share revenue. If you want to lose money that is up to you. but then again for the Rangers it helps their cable company if they lose money so therefore we still could have problems.

    owners do have revenue sharing in their plans. What the NHLPA is not happy about is where the sharing is coming from. But then again the NHLPA have never looked into the income side of the NHL so for them to look into revenue sharing is just foolish. How can the NHLPA say there must be revenue sharing when they have no reports on the health of the league, will not look at any reports or conduct any reports in the income of the NHL. It is like shoot at a target with your eyes closed.

    their plan is only a short term fix. 5% ... players get a 10% raise every year! It is NEWS when a player takes less than they did before, RFA or not. 50 million before the tax of .25 in every dollar comes in!!! hell most teams I know can't even get to the 50 million dollar mark. then .25 in every dollar ... that won't stop some teams very much. their offer was just poor.

    Just because you played hockey doesn't make you a good sports lawyer. If this statement was true then if i kill someone I will hire O.J. Simpons because we all know he got away with it! Gretzky and Lemieux are hockey players - they have not studied the law side of hockey as much as Bettman.
     
  15. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    I sure wish I lived in your world where $2.1B is nothing.

    You clearly no nothing about unions. That is exactly what employers do when they want a better deal from their employees. They lock them out.

    Oh, and BTW, attendance increased after the 1994 lockout, so it must not have had that bad of an effect on things.

    I really should stop here but this is so fun that I'll keep going. How can you not realize how absurd your comment is? There was ZERO chance that Bettman could have gotten $200M from their national TV deal. Even DementedReality and TomBenjamin would tell you that... and they're as pro-NHLPA as it gets.


    Nobody curcumvented any rules. The problem was the rules themselves, not someone not following the rules.


    The luxury tax threshold his over $110M. Atlanta cutting payroll had nothing to do with the tax.

    LOL. No they don't. NBC didn't televise a single baseball game all season.

    In other words, you have no problems with teams that successfully buy their way into the playoffs.

    Hockey can't be successful in the markets they've expanded to? PROVE IT.


    Are you really buying what the NHLPA is feeding you? Why don't you actually do a little research on your own before you blindly believe what they say. It's nothing more than PR. The NHLPA's plan would have VERY LITTLE effect on anything.


    How is it that you sit here and pretend to know about this situation but at the same time are completely clueless when it comes to the owners prosposals? ALL SIX of the owners proposals had revenue sharing included. EVERY ONE OF THEM.

    As for a cap, you're right in the sense that the players probably won't accept one. But your are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY HORRIBLY wrong in saying that it won't work. A cap in the NHL would fix nearly every single financial problem with the league.


    Contrary to popular belief? Who in the hell thinks otherwise? What an odd coment.

    The NHLPA thinks ticket prices are too high? Really? When did they say this? The NHLPA wants as much money as possible coming from the fans. They don't give a rats ass about the fans as long as they're getting their paychecks.

    Oh, and once again... the owners' proposals included revenue sharing that would have helped small market teams.


    The players don't give a rats ass what Gretzky or Lemieux say. Both of them are owners are are much more interested in their teams best interest than the players and the players know this.
     
  16. FlyersFan10*

    FlyersFan10* Guest

    Well, seeing as to how most people on here are pro owner, being pro player will never fly. What I will say is this. I am a unionized employee. My union has done tons of things right for me. When it came time to renegotiate our contract, my employer thought about locking us out. However, our employer never locked us out because our employer knew that it was revenue that it would lose and never make back. Our employer knew that the damage could be irrepairable if our plant were closed for a month. My point is this. The damage the lockout is going to do the NHL is probably going to be irrepairable. If they really wanted to, there could be a season right now and negotiations still ongoing. Now, if the lockout goes on for a year, there is talk of using replacement players. One problem though with that is that legal laws here in Canada prevent the use of replacement workers. What does this mean? The NHL is going to go belly up and a new hockey league will begin. That means we're going to see scabs play. If anyone can say that they are happy with scabs, then it really is a shame with regards to the way things are going.

    I will say this. I am pro union. Always have been, always will be. There seems to be this stigma attached to unions that we won't do whatever is necessary to help out. We will. I will say this. The best deal so far has been the one that TSN did up. When both the owners and the players don't like it, you know that you've done something right.

    However, the solution to all of this is probably going to be some kind of binding arbitration. Lay both cases out on the table and come to a compromise. That's the only way this is going to get resolved.
     
  17. ACC1224

    ACC1224 Registered User

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    either that or the Yankees could buy the league with that extra billion a year NBC gives them!!!!
     
  18. dawgbone

    dawgbone Registered User

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    :lol

    Are you serious?

    Why on earth would it be any different than the past few seasons when they were playing and not negotiating?

    Simple fact of the matter is neither side is going to make any serious concessions until they start feeling a big pinch. That isn't going to happen from the players side if they are cashing in their paycheques every 2 weeks, and it won't happen on the owners side because they know what they need.

    If you were in the PA, how hard would you really be negotiating if you liked the current system (which they do), and were collecting a pay-cheque?

    The answer: none.

    A lockout or a strike is the only way to get some serious bargaining going. Without a little blood being shed, nothing is going to get done.
     
  19. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    Oh really? Then perhaps you could explain how attendance went up after the 1994 lockout?

    As for unions... as in real unions, not pro sports unions... they suck and I'd never want to be part of one. I would not tollerate some guy making more than me simply because he has been employed longer. Unions... good for the lazy idiot, bad for the hard working intelligent person.
     
  20. Chelios

    Chelios Registered User

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    Come on now this is a little out of line.
     
  21. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    Owners made the mistake in the mid 90's when they didn't understand the concept of fiscal sanity. However, currently it's the players who refuse to acknowledge the grave danger the league is facing. They won't accept reasonable salaries (average salary from 1.7M to 1.3M) as they think they are entitled to all those financial priviledges they managed to wrangle from owners. They refuse to acknowledge that it simply doesn't work anymore. They are offering a very marginal reduction in salaries, not even nearly enough to help the owners of the smallest markets.

    Personally I'm looking for the owners to break the NHLPA, in the end we will see much more even playing field with every team capable of winning the Cup which WILL create much more interesting & entertaining league. No more meaningless games like Red Wings vs. Columbus in march where the first line of Red Wings makes more money than the whole roster of Columbus.

    Sure, there will always be better teams & worse teams but the differences will be much smaller since teams have close to equal resources to compete.

    So I really hope NHL will break NHLPA who are not only taking the living from dozens of minor leaguers who really need that money but also dozens of european prohockey players who don't make millions or even hundreds of thousands playing hockey. Why? Only to support the elite players who are going to get hit hardest by the inevitable hard salary cap.
     
  22. Chelios

    Chelios Registered User

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    My dear god will people please stop saying this. Thats like the owners saying "we are willing to start the season with a $30 million cap while negotiations are still going". How noble of the NHLPA :shakehead
     
  23. FlyersFan10*

    FlyersFan10* Guest

    Are you calling me a lazy idiot? I kind of take offense to that statement because I'm the furthest thing from being lazy and the furthest thing from being an idiot. I've worked god damn hard to get my industrial millwright certification and I resent the fact that some snot nose punk comes on here and tells me that I'm a lazy idiot because I have union representation. I kind of wish you were in front of me right now because I'd probably kick your @ss from pillar to post for making such a complete assinine comment. Fact of the matter is that I went to college to become a millwright and I go to school every couple of years to keep my certification up to date. As for the union, I have no qualms with someone trying to protect my position for me. I make $27 an hour with full benefits with my job. If I didn't have union representation, I'd be lucky to see even half of that for the work I do. Actually, I'm lucky that I even have a job because more and more of these jobs are being shipped overseas. So, until you know more about me, you, Mr. Jackass, are in no position to make any kind of statement about me.....f**king clown.
     
  24. degroat*

    degroat* Guest

    Let me ask you a question... are there any people in your union that make a ton more money than you because they've been in the union longer but don't work nearly as hard as you and aren't nearly as smart as you?

    If the answer is yes, then you should have understood my statement.

    If the answer to that question is no, then you're probably one of the people that I was referring to.
     
  25. x-bob

    x-bob Registered User

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    They are both to blame. They both did their share of stupids
     
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