NHL TV Ratings and Revenue

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MayDay

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Oct 21, 2005
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Interesting article in the NYT today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/sports/hockey/04sabres.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

NY Times said:
On Versus, Buffalo has the highest ratings and the most viewers. “The Buffalo fans are a force of nature,†said Gavin Harvey, the president of Versus. “We crushed ‘American Idol’ up there.â€

In Game 4, Buffalo had a 24.8 rating from Versus, accounting for 158,000 households — New York did a 1.5 — the highest ever for a hockey game on Versus in New York state.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

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Feb 17, 2005
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Does anyone have any ratings numbers for the Bay Area that compare local ratings for Sharks playoff games to local ratings for Warriors playoff games, since they are both currently involved in their respective playoffs?
 

MLH

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Does anyone have any ratings numbers for the Bay Area that compare local ratings for Sharks playoff games to local ratings for Warriors playoff games, since they are both currently involved in their respective playoffs?


Not that it's really a fair comparison since the Warriors are *the* story in the NBA, but...

"Twin telecasts of Game4 against the Mavericks on Sunday night drew a combined local TV rating of 11.2, which is nothing short of spectacular on the Bay Area sports scene. TNT drew a 6.8; Fox Sports Net Bay Area drew a 4.4"

http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_5791065

The Sharks Game 1 drew a 1.8.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Not that it's really a fair comparison since the Warriors are *the* story in the NBA, but...

"Twin telecasts of Game4 against the Mavericks on Sunday night drew a combined local TV rating of 11.2, which is nothing short of spectacular on the Bay Area sports scene. TNT drew a 6.8; Fox Sports Net Bay Area drew a 4.4"

http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_5791065

The Sharks Game 1 drew a 1.8.

The article states that a ratings point represents about 24,000 households. It follows:

24,000 x 1.8 = 43,200 households for the Sharks game 1
24,000 x 11.2 = 268,800 households for the Warriors game 4

GHOST
 

MAROONSRoad

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I don't even care any more, ice hockey is a niche sport in the US. What's there to debate?

I think most Americans are very aware of of hockey's niche status in most areas of the US. I'm in the states a lot and consequently know what the coverage/interest level is like; with the exception of a few regions, it's just not part of the mainstream. It's certain Canadians -- and a handful of southern-based US hockey apologists - that don't understand or try to deny the situation. JMHO

GHOST
 

MAROONSRoad

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Excel spread sheet showing household and viewer numbers

I can't vouch for the accuracy of this, but someone created a spreadsheet with US national sports TV rating numbers for the week of 4/16-4/22 that also provides a breakdown of the number of households and number of viewers. Hockey on NBC comes in as the number 12 ranked program nationally with a 0.8 rating or 888000 households and 1148000 viewers.

Web page:

http://mikedunshee.com/?p=62

Excel page here:

http://mikedunshee.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/ratings.xls

GHOST
 

Clarence Beeks

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May 4, 2006
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I don't know, but here is an interesting comment from the Star-Tribune (Twin Cities):

"Hits and misses

• This probably isn't what the management at Versus wants to see, but one of the best things the network has done during its NHL playoff coverage is pick up the feeds of certain games from the Canadian Broadcasting Company [sic] and TSN, which is Canada's version of ESPN. It was actually a bit disappointing Wednesday to find out the San Jose-Detroit game would be a Versus production."


I've seen Versus coverage and it's not bad; much better than ESPN IMHO.

Full article here:

http://www.startribune.com/503/story/1162167.html

GHOST

No offense, but no way. Their camera work leaves much to be desired, and their broadcast teams are BRUTAL. My biggest complaint about Versus is that they "cherrypick" broadcasters from teams (i.e. bennanati and brinkely from the Caps, and the color guy from Atlanta) who are terrible and can't shake their biases. The one good thing about what ESPN used to do and what CBC/TSN do is have their own broadcasters. I hate it when our games are on Versus or NBC for this reason alone. We usually just mute it and listen to the radio feed.
 

jsginsocal

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Feb 1, 2007
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I think most Americans are very aware of of hockey's niche status in most areas of the US. I'm in the states a lot and consequently know what the coverage/interest level is like; with the exception of a few regions, it's just not part of the mainstream. It's certain Canadians -- and a handful of southern-based US hockey apologists - that don't understand or try to deny the situation. JMHO

GHOST

I'd like to highlight that it is not the case in all US markets as you mention. There are plenty of markets where hockey is very noticable on the sports landscape. Most notably Minnesota, Detroit, Colorado, Buffalo, Philly, Pittsburgh and Boston. I realize that Boston is not a Bruins hotbed, but there is a strong interest in the sport of hockey in Massachusettes, much beyond a 'niche' sport level.
There are also emerging areas such as San Jose, Dallas, Tampa Bay, and Columbus where I really think the sport has a strong possibility of growing passed the 'niche' status. Of course there are the markets where it seems hopeless such as New Jersey, Anaheim, Florida, Washington DC, and Atlanta.
There are also the places where it once was more than a niche sport and has fallen into obscurity such as New York, St Louis, and Los Angeles.
Finally, if you take a look at the areas without an NHL team and 99.9 percent of them have relatively no interest at all in hockey.
So - that being said the NHL finds itself in a situation where it borders being a niche sport and being a part of the "big 4". It seems to be losing more traction than it is gaining unfortunantley so sooner or later it will completely fall of the main stream sporting landscape like the MLS or pro lacrosse league...but we can hope it doesnt reach that.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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I'd like to highlight that it is not the case in all US markets as you mention. There are plenty of markets where hockey is very noticable on the sports landscape. Most notably Minnesota, Detroit, Colorado, Buffalo, Philly, Pittsburgh and Boston. I realize that Boston is not a Bruins hotbed, but there is a strong interest in the sport of hockey in Massachusettes, much beyond a 'niche' sport level.
There are also emerging areas such as San Jose, Dallas, Tampa Bay, and Columbus where I really think the sport has a strong possibility of growing passed the 'niche' status. Of course there are the markets where it seems hopeless such as New Jersey, Anaheim, Florida, Washington DC, and Atlanta.
There are also the places where it once was more than a niche sport and has fallen into obscurity such as New York, St Louis, and Los Angeles.
Finally, if you take a look at the areas without an NHL team and 99.9 percent of them have relatively no interest at all in hockey.
So - that being said the NHL finds itself in a situation where it borders being a niche sport and being a part of the "big 4". It seems to be losing more traction than it is gaining unfortunantley so sooner or later it will completely fall of the main stream sporting landscape like the MLS or pro lacrosse league...but we can hope it doesnt reach that.

jsginsocal, I agree with you. I did not say it's niche in all US markets. I said it's niche in "most areas" with the "exception of a few regions," most notably the places you mentioned. I think the data speaks for itself, don't you?

GHOST
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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It's certain Canadians -- and a handful of southern-based US hockey apologists - that don't understand or try to deny the situation. JMHO

GHOST

My goodness, it almost sounds like you have an agenda.




And here I thought you were making all these wonderful posts to simply educate us.
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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You said I was "biased" and I said, yes, I am. :) I'm biased towards the data. As I said before Timmy add something. I'd like to see that. I know you can do that. :teach:

GHOST

Thanks for your input, Ghost!



I'd love to add something.

But I'd probably get banned.

I'm borderline Pejorative Slured, and you're the genius, which is why there will be NHL hockey in Winnipeg five years from now.



Could you just do me the little favour of sending out a love note to fans on this board whose team you'd like to steal, explaining why you deserve it more than them?



Thanks for all your help!


TIMMYofTheMORONroad










Next time, try to be more condescending. It looks good on you.
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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This is a serious thread regarding the business of hockey. Let's not make a joke of it, okay? If you dispute any of the posts, please let us know.

I appreciate all hockey fans. If you are so sensitive towards the fans of certain teams, can't you at least try to understand why the fans in Winnipeg (or other markets that lost a team) would want a team again? I ask this sincerely. Do they matter at all?

GHOST

No.
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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I guess you have no bias then.

Later,

GHOST

I don't live in Winnipeg, I don't live in Nashville, I don't live in New Jersey, I don't live in Edmonton, I don't live in New York, I don't live in Toronto, I don't live in L.A., I don't own shares in any companies which own teams, I don't believe that my favourite team (the Canucks, God help me) will benefit one way or the other from expansion or contraction, etc etc.

I used to be a fan of the Grizzlies.

They were taken away for a supposedly better market.


I do not pine for their return.


I do, however, support fans of teams in "non traditional" markets who continue to love their team despite all the crap flung their way by more "deserving" markets, and by individuals who continually use revenue figures and market data as some sort of justification for an owner of a team to magically uproot a franchise and ship it off to parts unknown (by the rest of the world).
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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"This is a serious thread regarding the business of hockey. Let's not make a joke of it. I appreciate all hockey fans. If you are so sensitive towards the fans of certain teams, can't you at least understand why fans in Winnipeg would want a team again? I ask this sincerely."






I guess you have no bias then.

Later,

GHOST


Good luck with your quest to get a team in Winnipeg.


I just hope it's not at the expense of fans who, despite the passion they display on these boards, are less "deserving".
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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That's good to know. Now can you please go away unless you have something to add about NHL TV ratings and revenues?

Thanks,

GHOST

Revenues are up across the league as a whole.

TV ratings suck, and will continue to suck, regardless of who is playing whom.

NBC ratings will continue to suck.

Versus ratings will continue to suck.

Islanders games ratings will continue to suck.

Such is the lot of a niche sport.


If only there was a team in Winnipeg to spark interest on an international level...
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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Show me where in this thead, or elsewhere, I said anything about "deserving." I'm just posting data from news reports or other reliable sources, which I add you can a) explain, b) dispute or c) do whatever you want with, Timmy. People can draw their own conclusions.

GHOST

:biglaugh:

You're posting data with a clear intention of justifying the removal of teams from markets, or adding them to markets. People can certainly draw their own conclusions, and I have no delusions about the challenges facing certain markets, but to mask your posts in some sort of veil of objective commentary is laughable at best, and insulting at worst.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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I've deleted all my posts with Timmy as I don't want this thread to be taken over by someone with an agenda. That's not what this was about. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the NHL's TV ratings and revenues, not to justify thoughts, ideas or conspiracy theories. Just data. I promise that!

We will continue to post the data. :)

Yours,

GHOST
 

Timmy

Registered User
Feb 2, 2005
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26
I've deleted all my posts with Timmy as I don't want this thread to be taken over by someone with an agenda. That's not what this was about. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the NHL's TV ratings and revenues, not to justify thoughts, ideas or conspiracy theories. Just data. I promise that!

We will continue to post the data. :)

Yours,

GHOST

I'll still be your huckleberry.
 
Dec 15, 2002
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Before we go any farther about TV ratings, I think it's important to discuss how they're created.

Take the Nielsen ratings for example. In the U.S., there's about 80 million households (probably more) - however, from what I can gather Nielsen only gathers data on 25,000 households (5,000 national, 20,000 local). The local users are allocated among the largest 46 markets - so if they're spread uniformly (likely not the case), each market's local ratings are determined by 435 people. If they're weighted according to each market's household population, then obviously cities under the average will get more. (Someone else can crunch those numbers.)

But let's say all 25,000 households are used to measure national ratings. It would be like going to a city of 500,000 people and trying to draw accurate conclusions on what the city is like by talking to 156 people - what's the chance that your view from those 156 people doesn't really measure what's going on there? There's *a lot* of room for measurement error here, and critics have alleged this for a long, long time. (Go read why Star Trek was cancelled - it's a great discussion of how Nielsen got it completely wrong.) Since it's really just 5,000 households determining the country's ratings, then it's similar to using 25 people to "accurately" measure the characteristics of a city of 1,000,000 people. Does that strike anyone else as completely bizarre and off-base?

(Note: if there are 80 million households, Nielsen should be using another 3,944 households to measure national TV ratings more accurately; if there are 100 million households, they need another 5,000 - perhaps Dr. No will expound on this point to explain how to determine a proper sample size.)

Now supposedly Nielsen uses households that make up a representative sample of the U.S. population - but what if hockey fans aren't in the typical representative sample? We hear all the time about how hockey fans are hard-core, rabid, die-hard fans ... what if their personal characteristics are largely on one side of the population base and thus underweighed (and undermeasured) by Nielsen? It would be interesting to see a comprehensive study of the demographics of hockey fans, because I suspect they don't fall in line with Joe Average.

Back to the local markets - Nielsen has long been criticized for their measurements here, as local TV stations pointed out that local numbers have been lower than the national numbers for much of the time since Nielsen started this. If this is indeed the case, then how much accuracy can we put into any local ratings if they're undermeasuring true TV interest? And if the demographics of hockey fans in local markets vary more from Joe Average, wouldn't that mean that hockey ratings are probably understated even more?

So ... the use of TV ratings is questionable even as a starting point; to discuss hockey "support" in any market regardless of how large a market we're talking about (national, regional, or metropolitan) is even more questionable. It's much more likely that Nielsen's ratings are flawed to begin with, and depending on the mismatch between the demographics of hockey fans and the general population, it could be even more flawed against getting an accurate measurement of how many people are watching hockey on TV in any region. This would logically translate to possible over/undermeasurement of other TV programs and genres.
 

MayDay

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Here's another article about TV ratings in the Buffalo-NYR series.

http://www.buffalonews.com/214/story/69003.html

Buffalo News said:
But in Round Two, the New York potential hasn’t translated into more viewers. The Versus coverage of Game One had a 25.3 rating here and a 1.1 rating in New York City. A rating point in Buffalo equals about 6,400 homes. A point in New York equals about 74,000 homes. According to Versus, the game was watched by practically twice as many households in Buffalo than in the Big Apple — 162,000 homes to 83,000 homes.

NBC’s coverage of the Rangers’ double overtime victory last Sunday averaged a 30 rating here for about 192,000 households. The 1.8 rating in New York equaled about 133,000 households.

Versus’ coverage of Tuesday’s “nogoal†game had a 24.8 rating in Buffalo for about 158,000 homes. In New York, the rating “surged†to a 1.5 or about 111,000 homes. And Versus reports that was the best rating ever for an NHL telecast on Versus in the New York market.
 

Fugu

Guest
(Note: if there are 80 million households, Nielsen should be using another 3,944 households to measure national TV ratings more accurately; if there are 100 million households, they need another 5,000 - perhaps Dr. No will expound on this point to explain how to determine a proper sample size.)

Nice synopsis, IB. I look forward to Dr. No's expounding on the determination of a proper sample size (if he'll agree to do it).

Also don't forget the Delphi Technique. It is counterintuitive, but what is the probability that a small subset of individuals all hold the same opinion about a subject (or more importantly, a specific question).

Now supposedly Nielsen uses households that make up a representative sample of the U.S. population - but what if hockey fans aren't in the typical representative sample? We hear all the time about how hockey fans are hard-core, rabid, die-hard fans ... what if their personal characteristics are largely on one side of the population base and thus underweighed (and undermeasured) by Nielsen? It would be interesting to see a comprehensive study of the demographics of hockey fans, because I suspect they don't fall in line with Joe Average.

I'm not sure how comprehensive the study was, but I believe the NHL published the results of some study that reveals the demographics. I also don't know if regional variability was accounted for.. or if the results include Canada. At least as compared to fans of the other major sports, more females (almost 40% of the base), the highest group of college grads (4+ yrs and post-grad), the highest avg income level, and probably a bit older overall. I'll try to hunt these up later unless someone beats me to it.


As far as flaws in Nielsen, I think there have been various reports even as recently as the Buffalo Sabres ratings that indicate a severe under-reporting. How Nielsen accounts for delayed viewing (e.g., TiVo) is perhaps another point that requires expanding upon.

The only defense I can offer of the Nielsen method is that it is reproducible and offers the same flawed results for all programs and sports. To what extent these over- or under-represent any particular viewership profile may not be that easy to answer, but certainly having an 'appropriate' sample size should decrease errors in all directions.
 

MLH

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Feb 6, 2003
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Buffalo is pulling bigger ratings for Sharks games than San Jose

Some interesting notes from The Buffalo News today:

The Buffalo area also boosts Versus’ non-Sabres hockey coverage. Buffalo had a 2.8 rating for the April 26 Detroit- San Jose game, making it second in the country behind only Detroit (7.3). Buffalo even beat the San Jose market, which averaged a 1.9.

Local ratings listed:

Buffalo G1: 25.3
Buffalo G3: 29.8
Buffalo G4: 24.8
NYC G1: 1.1
NYC G2: 1.8
NYC G4: 1.5
Detroit G1: 7.3
San Jose G1: 1.9
 

Fugu

Guest
Some links for fan demographics...

Good article on fan building and retention strategies too, btw:
Stanford Business:


Hockey is by far the smallest of the big four sports in terms of total fan base, television dollars, and sponsorship. However, the NHL fan base is the most affluent and well educated of the four, making the expensive full season ticket package a possibility for many. With the Stars an established franchise vying for the playoffs almost every year, season ticket marketing is a big part of the team's overall strategy.


Thrashers Fans


NHL fan demographics are very appealing to advertisers…

* 32% of hockey fans are age 18-34, higher than the NFL, MLB, NBA and Nascar
* 74% of Thrashers fans hold managerial or professional jobs
* 47% of Thrashers fans have a household income greater than $75,000
* Over one third of hockey fans are women

2002 Sun Times article referenced in Off Wing Opinion:

More On Ice Hockey Fan Demographics: Courtesy of the Chicago Sun-Times, comes this article which outlines some of the themes I dealt with yeaterday in my long riposte to Steven Den Beste's missive on ice hockey and its fans. Here's a choice entry:

Compared with fans of the NBA, NFL and major-league baseball, NHL fans are more likely to have an executive or managerial job, a household income of more than $100,000, a college degree and access to a computer and the Internet, according to a study by the Bonham Group for the NHL.

Some Versus demographics, but no baseline comparison:


2005-2006 Season NHL on OLN successes:

NHL on OLN was seen by over 14 Million viewers in the 05-06 Season!

The NHL on OLN attracted a significant number of new viewers to the network. The games resulted in HUGE increases to year-ago time period figures, especially among the coveted younger men demographics:

HH Impressions up 129%

Men 18-34 Impressions up 254%

Men 18-49 Impressions up 207%

Men 25-54 Impressions up 147%

Total Viewer Impressions up 129%

2005-2006 Season successes:

The NHL on OLN had a Median Age of 42 years, 7 years younger than non-hockey programming in Primetime this season.

The week of 5/22/06 featuring key NHL Conference Final games was the most watched Primetime week in OLN’s history among Households and Total Viewers.

The NHL on OLN performed extremely well in Upscale homes:

HH Rating
Index
HH Income $75,000+
123
HH Income $75,000+
117
 

NYIsles1*

Guest
markets being on tv being good for the league has always been a myth. the same SI that did the 94 NHL is hot article also did this article below. Michael Farber is a transplanted New Yorker and always does the New York dance come playoff time and did that article in 94 and another one like it a week ago.

comes down to how many fans in the media for a select team are writing about hockey to sell their favorite teams or how many establishment people who don't know anything about the NHL who can only talk about market size but not how many fans follow that sport.

it is interesting, however that the buffalo news has accused Msg network of
under-reporting their tv ratings, no wonder Devil and Islander ratings always seem far lower than they should be or the games are on outlets many cannot watch.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_rolfe/05/23/nhl.issues/index.html
Apocalypse not

Lousy postseason TV ratings are an NHL way of life
Posted: Tuesday May 23, 2006

"The NHL must have a big-market matchup with marquee stars!" the prophets howl from the steam grates, condemning the piteous 2.6 average Nielsen rating awarded to the 2004 Calgary vs. Tampa Bay final on ABC -- Game 7 of which pulled in a 4.2, or roughly 6.3 million American viewers. (Not included were the record-high 5.56 million Canadians ogling the game action on the CBC.)

Even with Canadians out of the mix, the merchants of doom forget that the 1994 marquee event of Mark Messier's New York Rangers seeking their first Cup in 54 years against the Vancouver Canucks drew a 5.2 for Game 7, but an average of only 2.5 for the series, although those tilts were on ESPN, which had 63 million subscribers.
 
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