Next World Cup

[Albatros]

I hope you are not seriously comparing breaks for Euro / World qualifiers, etc. with interruptions for an actual tournament. How many games do you play if you go to the final at the world championships and how many games do you play in the international break? Also, look at how many game days there are in the NHL versus in the European football leagues. So in international breaks, how many game days do you lose in European football versus NHL game days lost? I think the idea that the NHL would take a break every single year in an 83 game season plus playoffs is complete fantasy and absolutely ludicrous. They would be insane to do it, and they will not do it.

Next year there are two overlapping tournament windows, both for a month. First Africa Cup of Nations and Asian Cup in January-February and then Copa América and Euro in June-July. Most top leagues will be affected by at least one of the two.

 

[Old Man Jags]

Next year there are two overlapping tournament windows, both for a month. First Africa Cup of Nations and Asian Cup in January-February and then Copa América and Euro in June-July. Most top leagues will be affected by at least one of the two.

That is very different from actually stopping the league completely, isn’t it? Absolutely not comparable. They don’t suspend the leagues for the African cup of nations. It affects a lot of top European clubs because they all tend to have some African players in the top European leagues who represent a country that has qualified for the tournament. But it’s not like Liverpool stopped existing and doing OK when Mo Salah was at the African championships, was it? Quite apart from that, even if all your arguments were absolutely valid, I don’t see the slightest reason why the NHL should imitate football. Apart from the fact that they really should not care how football runs its affairs, I come back to my previous point about number of games lost in an 83 game season plus playoffs, versus the situation football. How many games did the African players miss who went to the African cup of nations?

 

[Albatros]

That is very different from actually stopping the league completely, isn’t it? Absolutely not comparable. They don’t suspend the leagues for the African cup of nations. It affects a lot of top European clubs because they all tend to have some African players in the top European leagues who represent a country that has qualified for the tournament. But it’s not like Liverpool stopped existing and doing OK when Mo Salah was at the African championships, was it? Quite apart from that, even if all your arguments were absolutely valid, I don’t see the slightest reason why the NHL should imitate football. Apart from the fact that they really should not care how football runs its affairs, I come back to my previous point about number of games lost in an 83 game season plus playoffs, versus the situation football. How many games did the African players miss who went to the African cup of nations?

That's of course up to the leagues whether they want to play without certain players or keep a break. For international soccer the issue is already cleared when the players are released.

In hockey I don't expect anything from the NHL, it's a separate branch of the entertainment industry that is generally harmful to the game of hockey as a sport. But I would wish that all European leagues would operate in a way that would allow all their players to participate, in some albeit relatively few cases also this has not been so.

 

[vipera1960]

First, I’m going to snip down some of this so that everyone isn’t just tl:dr as I refute like 5 points.

That's like saying, "Let's award the Stanley Cup every 4 years, or every 2 years at most. Why every year? Such a waste!"

Because the Stanley Cup is a league trophy (yes I know it’s technically a “challenge cup” available to all, but it’s a league trophy). You aren’t arguing that the KHL or SHL or Liiga should award their championships every 4 years are you? What makes these international competitions special is they don’t happen every year.

In case you haven't noticed, the annual World Championships is a tradition of many decades – almost as many as the Stanley Cup/NHL itself.

While the World Championship and the NHL have been around for about the same length (NHL 1917, WC 1920) the WC did not begin allowing professional players until 1976, so in terms of best-on-best the WC is about 60 years behind.

Just continue the Stanley Cup play-offs in June and July – players will be all over it! Makes perfect sense for ice hockey, doesn't it?

You're tragically mistaken. The "offseason" begins after the World Cup/Euro are concluded. They are THE climax of the season – as they well should be.

First off, the Stanley Cup Playoffs typically end around the third week in June, and the players are all over it. That’s because it’s currently the closest to best-on-best we have.

Second, the football season in Europe is over by the end of may. There’s two teams (out of like 100) playing for the CL trophy, and everyone else is done. The WC/Euros is still a week after the CL final, which is exactly what I’m suggesting: a best-on-best tournament in late June.

Plus, as you may have observed, the most recent World Cup was played mid-season, and every single top-level football league on this planet halted their regular seasons for an entire month to facilitate the tournament. Not a single billionaire football club owner objected to that. And let me tell you, there are many more billions in world football (so-called soccer) than in North American hockey.

Oh they absolutely did object to that, but the World Cup is an institution, while the WC is not. The (football) players care about the World Cup. The (hockey) players don’t care about the WC. The solution is to make it more accessible.

 

[Albatros]

First, I’m going to snip down some of this so that everyone isn’t just tl:dr as I refute like 5 points.


Because the Stanley Cup is a league trophy (yes I know it’s technically a “challenge cup” available to all, but it’s a league trophy). You aren’t arguing that the KHL or SHL or Liiga should award their championships every 4 years are you? What makes these international competitions special is they don’t happen every year.

While the World Championship and the NHL have been around for about the same length (NHL 1917, WC 1920) the WC did not begin allowing professional players until 1976, so in terms of best-on-best the WC is about 60 years behind.

First off, the Stanley Cup Playoffs typically end around the third week in June, and the players are all over it. That’s because it’s currently the closest to best-on-best we have.

Second, the football season in Europe is over by the end of may. There’s two teams (out of like 100) playing for the CL trophy, and everyone else is done. The WC/Euros is still a week after the CL final, which is exactly what I’m suggesting: a best-on-best tournament in late June.

Oh they absolutely did object to that, but the World Cup is an institution, while the WC is not. The (football) players care about the World Cup. The (hockey) players don’t care about the WC. The solution is to make it more accessible.

Many top-level hockey seasons are over by early March, already the current dates are somewhat problematic relative to that. Late June would be more than three months after the end of the season for many players and would largely eliminate their off-season altogether. Secondly I see little value in changing things for those that don't care about the competition to start with. Whether players or fans.

 

[mattihp]

NBA is an abomination of basketball.

Yes, it's clearly not the norm. Which shows in international competition.

 

[Shocker]

While the World Championship and the NHL have been around for about the same length (NHL 1917, WC 1920) the WC did not begin allowing professional players until 1976, so in terms of best-on-best the WC is about 60 years behind.

Even if NHL technically allowed Euros there weren't almost any until 80s, they weren't a best-on-best until the 90's really, so this is kind of a moot point.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Yes, because the NHL sabotages them. As the only top-level hockey league on this entire planet. So, you can repeat that phrase again, but to the mirror, or translate it properly:

f*** the NHL.

NHL/NHLPA does the job it is supposed to do, the job that most people on here pay them to do. It delivers the best hockey product in the world on a regular basis.

IIHF sucks at its job and doesn't understand that it is the junior partner in any interaction between these orgs.

NHL & NHLPA are effective partners in delivering a hockey product. If there is going to be a good best on best tournament it will be at the discretion of these stakeholders and not the IIHF who impotent at best.

Once again, f*** the IIHF.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Many top-level hockey seasons are over by early March, already the current dates are somewhat problematic relative to that. Late June would be more than three months after the end of the season for many players and would largely eliminate their off-season altogether. Secondly I see little value in changing things for those that don't care about the competition to start with. Whether players or fans.

There is only on top level of hockey. You know it, I know it, we all know it. The rest are just side shows.

 

[Albatros]

NHL & NHLPA are effective partners in delivering a hockey product.

Why is their viewership low even in the biggest hockey countries outside of North America if that is the case? I'm sure they're effective at delivering to a certain segment of the market, but that's barely overlapping with the IIHF at all.

 

[Tuoppi]

Since in North America people speak English, Canada and the US should also have one team.

We could do just four teams:

North America (us, canada)
Scandinavia (fins, sweds, norway and dnmk)
Eastern Europe (slovaks, czech n russia)
Western Europe (austrians, swiss, germans)

Team English speakers would have to play Nathan Walker and Liam Kirk.

Team French speakers would have to have players from France and Switzerland

Team Finland/Hungary/Estonia has to have players from Hungary and Estonia.

Team Latvia and Lithuania.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Why is their viewership low even in the biggest hockey countries outside of North America if that is the case? I'm sure they're effective at delivering to a certain segment of the market, but that's barely overlapping with the IIHF at all.

Their viewership and revenues are fine and are orders of magnitude better then anyone else. Hockey is a niche sport fundamentally. That the Ottawa Senators are about to be sold for 1 billion dollars in a large pool of bidders tells us how well the NHL is doing considering Hockey's niche status.

Contrarians like you have been saying how bad the NHL is doing for at least my adult life and yet they still keep trucking on.

Its a great product. They do serve their market incredibly well. That is their job. The overlap is that the NHL/NHLPA controls all the best talent in the world and the IIHF controls jack shit. NHLPA and Fans would prefer to have some best on best tournaments as well but not at the expense of NHL season. NHL will allow that to happen in partnership with the NHLPA only under the right circumstances. All of the above is completely reasonable when considering organisational mandates.

I personally don't like the international game/ice. I would prefer NHL ice in all international tournaments. I like it when guys punch each other in games. Even though I live in European (time zones) i would rather stay up late to watch elite hockey. NHL/NHLPA domination of the sport serves me well. If you fans of euro hockey and IIHF don't like it you can reprioritise your hockey spends and you will have more say. Otherwise its status quo.

 

[vipera1960]

Even if NHL technically allowed Euros there weren't almost any until 80s, they weren't a best-on-best until the 90's really, so this is kind of a moot point.

Team English speakers would have to play Nathan Walker and Liam Kirk.

Team French speakers would have to have players from France and Switzerland

Team Finland/Hungary/Estonia has to have players from Hungary and Estonia.

Team Latvia and Lithuania.

I like that team French only has to have French and (I’m assuming French-speaking) Swiss players, while team English has to actually play Walker and Kirk.

 

[Albatros]

Their viewership and revenues are fine and are orders of magnitude better then anyone else. Hockey is a niche sport fundamentally. That the Ottawa Senators are about to be sold for 1 billion dollars in a large pool of bidders tells us how well the NHL is doing considering Hockey's niche status.

Contrarians like you have been saying how bad the NHL is doing for at least my adult life and yet they still keep trucking on.

Its a great product. They do serve their market incredibly well. That is their job. The overlap is that the NHL/NHLPA controls all the best talent in the world and the IIHF controls jack shit. NHLPA and Fans would prefer to have some best on best tournaments as well but not at the expense of NHL season. NHL will allow that to happen in partnership with the NHLPA only under the right circumstances. All of the above is completely reasonable when considering organisational mandates.

I personally don't like the international game/ice. I would prefer NHL ice in all international tournaments. I like it when guys punch each other in games. Even though I live in European (time zones) i would rather stay up late to watch elite hockey. NHL/NHLPA domination of the sport serves me well. If you fans of euro hockey and IIHF don't like it you can reprioritise your hockey spends and you will have more say. Otherwise its status quo.

In North America only. In Europe the IIHF World Championships receive more than 10x as many viewers as the Stanley Cup playoffs even when the NHL games are prime time in national television. That being the case, the current situation of largely separate spheres serves both sides better than realistic alternatives. And given that the tickets are already now often too expensive there's no need to put in more money either.

 

[Shocker]

I like that team French only has to have French and (I’m assuming French-speaking) Swiss players, while team English has to actually play Walker and Kirk.

Why did you quote me

 

[Silky Johnson]

In North America only. In Europe the IIHF World Championships receive more than 10x as many viewers as the Stanley Cup playoffs even when the NHL games are prime time in national television. That being the case, the current situation of largely separate spheres serves both sides better than realistic alternatives. And given that the tickets are already now often too expensive there's no need to put in more money either.

Cool. You continue watching an inferior product and Ill keep watching the NHL. World Championships will continue to mean nothing and every once in a while there will be a real best on best that's worth watching. Status quo completely works for me.

 

[independent observer]

Team English speakers would have to play Nathan Walker and Liam Kirk.

Team French speakers would have to have players from France and Switzerland

Team Finland/Hungary/Estonia has to have players from Hungary and Estonia.

Team Latvia and Lithuania.

No problemo, Switzerland has no good french speaking players anyway, but gladly takes Ehlers that wants to join his childhood friends like Meier

 

[1878rgw]

There is a reason the NHL has all the best players in the world.

Money I guess.

 

[PullHard]

How is this still open?

There will be no tournament until further notice.
end of story

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[member 305909]

If they had kept it going at regular intervals since 1996 by this time over a quarter of century later the competition would have gathered tradition so that it would have become the pinnacle of international hockey and everybody would want to win it.

I'm sure the same thing happened with the soccer wc in the 1920s. They decided let's have an international competition.

The English spurned it at first an thought it was inferior to the English league but oh boy how much they would like to win it now.

But the thing is to get it started and keep it going.

 

[MeHateHe]

Petition for coffee to get mod status sign here:

Petition for coffee to go out and get a cup of coffee

 

[Silky Johnson]

Money I guess.

That money isn’t coming from their personal savings….

The NHL can generate the most revenue because they have the best product by far.

How well would a top tier NA hockey league do without access to the vast majority of the top 600 players in the world?Probably about as well as the Euro leagues are doing now.

The NHL has built a league that is as dominant relative to their sport as any other outside of the NFL, which basically has no competition.

As a NA sports fan, I thank them for it.

 

[Albatros]

That money isn’t coming from their personal savings….

The NHL can generate the most revenue because they have the best product by far.

How well would a top tier NA hockey league do without access to the vast majority of the top 600 players in the world?Probably about as well as the Euro leagues are doing now.

The NHL has built a league that is as dominant relative to their sport as any other outside of the NFL, which basically has no competition.

As a NA sports fan, I thank them for it.

The NHL has increased its revenues by expanding into new markets and in some cases also abandoning less profitable old ones even in traditional locations. Regarding players, first and foremost they've sorely needed (and got) more from the US. Beyond that, fans care more about the competitiveness of their own team relative to others in the league and that the league is the biggest show in town than about what exists or doesn't exist somewhere overseas. For the business model it's largely irrelevant whether there are 0 or 600 top players somewhere in Europe.

 

[Silky Johnson]

The NHL has increased its revenues by expanding into new markets and in some cases also abandoning less profitable old ones even in traditional locations. Regarding players, first and foremost they've sorely needed (and got) more from the US. Beyond that, fans care more about the competitiveness of their own team relative to others in the league and that the league is the biggest show in town than about what exists or doesn't exist somewhere overseas. For the business model it's largely irrelevant whether there are 0 or 600 top players somewhere in Europe. Many fans want to see the best players in the world.

Come on, you know fans would rather see better players play in better leagues. If you can't tell the significant talent and quality difference between SHL and NHL games then you are a casual fan at best.

And yes, while the NHL has expanded into new regions. Same market revenue is up consistently over time.

Expansion and moving teams to more viable markets is ONE reason for revenue growth, what is your point?

 

[jonlin]

Finland should play with Western Europe as it is not in Scandinavia. Denmark being an edge case too as they're only kinda in Scandinavia but share lots of culture.

What about us Swedish-speaking Finns? We have lived in on the Finnish west- and southcoast probably longer than the Finnish speaking population has been here...