News & Notes XLIII: Cam Ward is a Cute lil 10 Year Old

[A Star is Burns]

Your paraphrasing is a bit different from what I read / interpret.

1) "Serious threat" of relocation - Here 's the exact quote.

On multiple occasions, Dundon broached the subject of relocation with Waddell.

“In probably his first year and a half, we might have had two conversations about, ‘Are there other places that might be better?’” Waddell said. “And I kept saying, ‘Let’s give this a chance here.’ Once we got to that point where we got the lease and attendance was getting better, he felt better that we can make it in this market and do well here.”

Certainly losing money had him concerned, but a "serious threat" to me is not asking your GM a couple of times if there are better places. To each their own though.

2) I don't see that quote from Forslund damning. Dundon didn't see a lot of value in announcers (Radio with Chuck and TV with Forslund) and gave them take it or leave it offers.

3) He doesn't care about the rest of the league. Here's the text from that article:

Asked whether Dundon is close with his fellow NHL owners, Commissioner Gary Bettman said that “he likes to focus his energies and intentions and efforts on the Hurricanes and, frankly, if you’re a fan of the Hurricanes, that’s good news.”

Florida Panthers owner Vinnie Viola, who considers Dundon a friend, said he and Dundon have bonded over their mutual penchant for using statistics to drive their business decisions.

“He’s actually kind of shy,” Viola said. “I don’t think people see him that way, but I do. He’s a family, stay-at-home guy.”

I'm guessing most owners focus most of their energy and efforts on their own teams.

4) - He’s probably a big reason (if not THE big reason) we’re getting jobbed by the officiating, since he contacts Bettman and the head of officiating after every game about questionable calls.

It wasn't just about officiating that he contacts Bettman's office.

"Bettman also characterized Dundon as “very hands-on,” noting that his office often hears from the Hurricanes owner multiple times a week.

“Our hockey operations people, our officiating people will hear from him if there’s a call he’s concerned about — after the fact, of course, not during the game,” Bettman said. “He’s always raising good questions about the collective-bargaining agreement and the salary cap and he’s always trying to make sure that the Hurricanes are doing everything possible within the rules to get an edge.”

How dare you get in the way of good narratives. Have you no shame?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Your paraphrasing is a bit different from what I read / interpret.

1) "Serious threat" of relocation - Here 's the exact quote.

On multiple occasions, Dundon broached the subject of relocation with Waddell.

“In probably his first year and a half, we might have had two conversations about, ‘Are there other places that might be better?’” Waddell said. “And I kept saying, ‘Let’s give this a chance here.’ Once we got to that point where we got the lease and attendance was getting better, he felt better that we can make it in this market and do well here.”

Certainly losing money had him concerned, but a "serious threat" to me is not asking your GM a couple of times if there are better places. To each their own though.

We’ve seen this week that it doesn’t take long for the decision to relocate to happen. And I’d say the fact that he reapproached the discussion of relocation after being told to wait it the first time constitutes a serious threat to me. As you said, to each their own.

2) I don't see that quote from Forslund damning. Dundon didn't see a lot of value in announcers (Radio with Chuck and TV with Forslund) and gave them take it or leave it offers.

Like I said, it just confirmed what we were already guessing at. He doesn’t seem to take into account extenuating factors other than what they bring to their job. Which is fine if that’s how he wants to run his business. But I imagine many people would say Forslund’s history with the organization and his place in the community should have played a part in negotiations.

3) He doesn't care about the rest of the league. Here's the text from that article:

Asked whether Dundon is close with his fellow NHL owners, Commissioner Gary Bettman said that “he likes to focus his energies and intentions and efforts on the Hurricanes and, frankly, if you’re a fan of the Hurricanes, that’s good news.”

Florida Panthers owner Vinnie Viola, who considers Dundon a friend, said he and Dundon have bonded over their mutual penchant for using statistics to drive their business decisions.

“He’s actually kind of shy,” Viola said. “I don’t think people see him that way, but I do. He’s a family, stay-at-home guy.”

I'm guessing most owners focus most of their energy and efforts on their own teams.

Bettman is asked if he’s close to other owners, and instead of giving a “Yes or No” answer or something like “As close as any other owner”, he responds with a “Well, he’s focused on the Canes.” To me, that implies two things: 1. There are owners (or a group of owners) that are close knit and 2. Dundon isn’t one of those owners.

Add in that he apparently has a reputation for taking a hardball approach the running the organization, as well as one as being very “hands on”when it comes to the Canes, and (to me), that tells me he doesn’t care much about the rest of the league.

4) - He’s probably a big reason (if not THE big reason) we’re getting jobbed by the officiating, since he contacts Bettman and the head of officiating after every game about questionable calls.

It wasn't just about officiating that he contacts Bettman's office.

"Bettman also characterized Dundon as “very hands-on,” noting that his office often hears from the Hurricanes owner multiple times a week.

“Our hockey operations people, our officiating people will hear from him if there’s a call he’s concerned about — after the fact, of course, not during the game,” Bettman said. “He’s always raising good questions about the collective-bargaining agreement and the salary cap and he’s always trying to make sure that the Hurricanes are doing everything possible within the rules to get an edge.”

I can see why you read my comment that way, but I never said he ONLY contacted Bettman about the bad calls. Just that he’s apparently contacting the league offices “multiple times a week” which Bettman would qualify as “very hands-on”.

 

[Svechhammer]

I'm just saying, seeing how quickly things went to shit in Aizona and apparently how close Dundon was to moving the Canes, it does piss me off that the team is actively pushing STM out of the arena by jacking up prices to chase corporate dollars.

Like, this team was saved because locals bought into the team and invested their money into the product, and now that things are good, instead of paying that back a little with some kickbacks and perks, they're throwing them all away to try and whore themselves out to their corporate buddies. Eliminating the very few actual deals the team had to grandfathered STM is shitty business, it's trying to get a quick buck over establishing long term relationships with a fanbase you yourself said was too fickle only 5 years ago.

 

[MinJaBen]

We’ve seen this week that it doesn’t take long for the decision to relocate to happen. And I’d say the fact that he reapproached the discussion of relocation after being told to wait it the first time constitutes a serious threat to me.

They played two years in a 5000 seat arena….this was not a quick decision.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

They played two years in a 5000 seat arena….this was not a quick decision.

I could be wrong, but I believe the latest report said the decision to relocate them was made just a month ago, though the first time it was seriously considered was after they lost the vote in Tempe.

 

[MinJaBen]

I could be wrong, but I believe the latest report said the decision to relocate them was made just a month ago, though the first time it was seriously considered was after they lost the vote in Tempe.

Probably. Who knows. But that final decision in the last couple of weeks doesn’t mean things weren’t being seriously considered for a while.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

We’ve seen this week that it doesn’t take long for the decision to relocate to happen. And I’d say the fact that he reapproached the discussion of relocation after being told to wait it the first time constitutes a serious threat to me. As you said, to each their own.

I disagree. That situation in AZ has been ongoing for years. No arena, city that doesn't want to build an arena, playing out of a college arena, no plan or vision in place for the future, an owner who can't pay the bills, etc.... This situation didn't come out of the blue. I guarantee there was a ton of behind the scenes work with SLC and the NHL that we didn't hear about. I disagree on the "serious threat". Fans want to think the sky is falling all the time but a businessman like Dundon is always going to be asking questions like that. He was new to hockey and was going to always be probing Waddell and RBA. Trust me, if Dundon wanted to move the team, he would not have let Waddell's comment stand in the way and he would have been out courting and researching other locations. He's that type of detailed oriented guy. That tells me it wasn't a serious thread. Like I said, to each their own.

Like I said, it just confirmed what we were already guessing at. He doesn’t seem to take into account extenuating factors other than what they bring to their job. Which is fine if that’s how he wants to run his business. But I imagine many people would say Forslund’s history with the organization and his place in the community should have played a part in negotiations.

There was no "what we were guessing at." Dundon came right out from the beginning and said he wants to spend his money on the ice. He said that multiple times. He couldn't have been more direct. When he let Chuck go in 2018, it was obvious. You may think other factors should play a role in the negotiations, but that's now how business works when you are replaceable and not important to the overriding goal of the business. Forslund was a nice thing to have, but not important winning and putting fans in the seats, thus he had no negotiating leverage. When you have no leverage, you can't negotiate. There's nothing damning about Forslund's quote. It's what we knew already. I get it, he's a tough businessman and negotiator but he told us how he was going to act and he did exactly that.

Bettman is asked if he’s close to other owners, and instead of giving a “Yes or No” answer or something like “As close as any other owner”, he responds with a “Well, he’s focused on the Canes.” To me, that implies two things: 1. There are owners (or a group of owners) that are close knit and 2. Dundon isn’t one of those owners.

Add in that he apparently has a reputation for taking a hardball approach the running the organization, as well as one as being very “hands on”when it comes to the Canes, and (to me), that tells me he doesn’t care much about the rest of the league.

He's not close to other owners, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about the rest of league (your words). Even the Florida owner said they are close, but Dundon is a shy family guy. Even his friend on the trip says he's hard to get to know and doesn't have a lot of friends. It's a leap to take that into "he doesn't care about the rest of the league." Like I said, every owner in every sport on the plant is going to care about their own team 1st, 2nd and 3rd. They need a healthy league to succeed though, so they care about the league as well.

As the Florida owner said: "It really comes down to strict discipline within the numbers,” said Viola, the Panthers owner. “He’s one of the most disciplined owners that I’ve observed in the league.”

I can see why you read my comment that way, but I never said he ONLY contacted Bettman about the bad calls. Just that he’s apparently contacting the league offices “multiple times a week” which Bettman would qualify as “very hands-on”.

You spun a narrative that made it seem like he called the league after every game to complain about calls and the was the reason why the Canes get hosed on calls. That's not what the article said.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You spun a narrative that made it seem like he called the league after every game to complain about calls and the was the reason why the Canes get hosed on calls. That's not what the article said.

It was tongue in cheek based off the multiple times in the past RBA drew blame for the officiating bias because of his comments postgame/yelling at the bench/whathaveyou. Clearly, it's an organizational problem that starts from the top down.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm just saying, seeing how quickly things went to shit in Aizona and apparently how close Dundon was to moving the Canes, it does piss me off that the team is actively pushing STM out of the arena by jacking up prices to chase corporate dollars.

Like, this team was saved because locals bought into the team and invested their money into the product, and now that things are good, instead of paying that back a little with some kickbacks and perks, they're throwing them all away to try and whore themselves out to their corporate buddies. Eliminating the very few actual deals the team had to grandfathered STM is shitty business, it's trying to get a quick buck over establishing long term relationships with a fanbase you yourself said was too fickle only 5 years ago.

 

[cptjeff]

They don’t say anything about the pandemic in the article, only that there was “zero negotiations”. I didn’t think it was about the pandemic then and I don’t now. He didn’t want to pay more for something that’s not on the ice and someone can do for cheaper. That’s his thing.

He’s never really come off as a guy I’d like to spend time with but he’s paid the bills. He certainly isn’t married to the area it would seem either. I’m glad the team turned it around.

The pandemic was the context that Forslund left out. The team (as with every other team) lost 100% of their gate revenue, and all the ancillary in-arena sales. The season was starting with zero fans in the stands. Zero. That puts NHL teams down to about 30% of their normal income stream. They had no way of knowing how soon they would get that back and to what degree.

The deal Forslund (and literally every other staff member) was offered was a COVID base salary, with increases back to a full salary based on attendance percentage. As team revenue increased their pay increased, in other words. Every other staff member took the deal. Players and owners had to both swallow a similar percentage cuts to their own pay that Forslund and other staff were asked to take (players and owners both taking *exactly* the percentage of league revenue drop due to how the CBA is structured), though the players were able to spread out the impact over 5 years.

Fundamentally, Covid destroyed team and league revenues and Forslund wanted his full pay as if nothing was happening in the world at all, while players, owners, and every other member of staff were taking major financial stress. The more time goes on the less sympathetic I get to that.

 

[Unsustainable]

I'm just saying, seeing how quickly things went to shit in Aizona and apparently how close Dundon was to moving the Canes, it does piss me off that the team is actively pushing STM out of the arena by jacking up prices to chase corporate dollars.

Like, this team was saved because locals bought into the team and invested their money into the product, and now that things are good, instead of paying that back a little with some kickbacks and perks, they're throwing them all away to try and whore themselves out to their corporate buddies. Eliminating the very few actual deals the team had to grandfathered STM is shitty business, it's trying to get a quick buck over establishing long term relationships with a fanbase you yourself said was too fickle only 5 years ago.

Never forget what they took from you. The beefy 5 layer burrito was 89 cents.

 

[Svechhammer]

The pandemic was the context that Forslund left out. The team (as with every other team) lost 100% of their gate revenue, and all the ancillary in-arena sales. The season was starting with zero fans in the stands. Zero. That puts NHL teams down to about 30% of their normal income stream. They had no way of knowing how soon they would get that back and to what degree.

The deal Forslund (and literally every other staff member) was offered was a COVID base salary, with increases back to a full salary based on attendance percentage. As team revenue increased their pay increased, in other words. Every other staff member took the deal. Players and owners had to both swallow a similar percentage cuts to their own pay that Forslund and other staff were asked to take (players and owners both taking *exactly* the percentage of league revenue drop due to how the CBA is structured), though the players were able to spread out the impact over 5 years.

Fundamentally, Covid destroyed team and league revenues and Forslund wanted his full pay as if nothing was happening in the world at all, while players, owners, and every other member of staff were taking major financial stress. The more time goes on the less sympathetic I get to that.

On top of this, Forslund wanted a full share with full allowances to broadcast national games. He wanted us to pay him a full salary while allowing him to work for a direct competitor.

 

[tarheelhockey]

We were bleeding money. We were paying all Aho’s signing bonuses, our ticket prices were low, corporate sponsorship money is really low, our tv deal money is low, and he was spending a ton to get the extras up to nhl standards.

With the context of this article, I do wonder if the Aho offer sheet was a turning point in the way he related to this organization. He explicitly comes across as a guy who doesn’t mix business with personal. But that offer sheet was personal, in that it implied certain things about him as an investor. His on-camera reaction was unlike anything else we’ve seen, and the organization’s retaliation was unlike anything else I can remember in the NHL. All of a sudden it got very personal very quickly.

This has all been discussed to death, but the article does kind of fill in a little bit of context for how he felt about the franchise and market leading up to that moment. I wonder if that was the moment where he really forged an identity as the leader of a hockey team and not just an investor in the business.

 

[Lempo]

A genuine "hold my Storm Brew™" moment.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

DUN DON

 

[hblueridgegal]

Warms my heart!

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

It was tongue in cheek based off the multiple times in the past RBA drew blame for the officiating bias because of his comments postgame/yelling at the bench/whathaveyou. Clearly, it's an organizational problem that starts from the top down.

Dundon wanting to hold the league accountable for shitty officiating isn't an organizational problem. It's a league problem. And the fans know it and want it fixed too. Issue is, I don't think there is an perfect solution. It's a tough job and refs are human. But there is something to the point that ref jobs are quite cushy and no matter how much they f*** up they still won't be held accountable. Well, unless they're caught on a hot mic admitting to making a nefarious call...

On top of this, Forslund wanted a full share with full allowances to broadcast national games. He wanted us to pay him a full salary while allowing him to work for a direct competitor.

I really wish he would've just gotten hired full time for NBC/ESPN to broadcast nationally. He's that good and deserved it and then we wouldn't have any animosity. But yeah that was bullshit from Forslund trying to have his cake and eat it too. I loved Forslund and Tripp together and Mike is certainly nowhere near his caliber at PBP but it really hasn't been much of a loss or change. Proving Dundon right...

 

[chaz4hockey]

The pandemic was the context that Forslund left out. The team (as with every other team) lost 100% of their gate revenue, and all the ancillary in-arena sales. The season was starting with zero fans in the stands. Zero. That puts NHL teams down to about 30% of their normal income stream. They had no way of knowing how soon they would get that back and to what degree.

The deal Forslund (and literally every other staff member) was offered was a COVID base salary, with increases back to a full salary based on attendance percentage. As team revenue increased their pay increased, in other words. Every other staff member took the deal. Players and owners had to both swallow a similar percentage cuts to their own pay that Forslund and other staff were asked to take (players and owners both taking *exactly* the percentage of league revenue drop due to how the CBA is structured), though the players were able to spread out the impact over 5 years.

Fundamentally, Covid destroyed team and league revenues and Forslund wanted his full pay as if nothing was happening in the world at all, while players, owners, and every other member of staff were taking major financial stress. The more time goes on the less sympathetic I get to that.

I would also add that Forslund probably thought he was negotiating from a position of strength and clearly misread the room.

As I recall, National jobs also were opening up (Sean McDonough ESPN <NE reputation for Ct. decision makers probably helped> / Kenny Albert TNT <family connection probably helped>) and perhaps he thought that was a good fallback.

Of course what happened is that he had to move during season to the very high cost Seattle market to broadcast games (he has his home in Apex???) coupled with some sparse National games (probably paid per game???). Now he is 62 and probably is no longer in future national announcer consideration whereas if he had played ball would be with the Canes through his 70's.

FWIW: Dundon's focus on putting as much $ as he can on the ice (spend to the cap+)/support the players versus fueling the rest of team's bureaucracy resonates with me.

edit: I didn't realize that he may be contention to replace Jack Edwards: Will John Forslund leave for the Boston Bruins?

 

[AD Skinner]

If forslund becomes the bruins guy I will legit feel feelings

 

[bleedgreen]

People keep talking about the things Forslund wanted in negotiations when Forslund says there were “zero negotiations”.

Forslund for the B’s would be a kick in the ding ding.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Why does it matter where Forslund goes? Let him go to Boston. It doesn’t matter

 

[hblueridgegal]

A bit surprising to me. I still think of Dallas as the frontrunner.

 

[bleedgreen]

Why does it matter where Forslund goes? Let him go to Boston. It doesn’t matter

Whalers/Bruins thing for me. It’s a pretty big deal in the northeast. The Canes don’t really have any natural rivals.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Whalers/Bruins thing for me. It’s a pretty big deal in the northeast. The Canes don’t really have any natural rivals.

Eh, Gerry Cheevers was the Whalers color analyst. I’m not too worried about it.

He’s not a big enough homer for NESN. Donnie Mac from Roxbury is gonna call in to complain about the new PBP guy who doesnt know shit and hates the Bruins.

 

[The Faulker 27]