New Winnipeg Ice Arena

[jetsmooseice]

So then what's the solution? As a League the WHL wants professionalism and success, having a franchise play games in an old University arena with bench seats that houses 1600 fans tops isn't really a great look on the league, no matter if the organization is making/losing money and they are willing to lose money for the forseeable future.

Fact is they need an arena....it won't be built in Winnipeg unless it means the specifications that TNSE/City/province have in place. It isn't being built in the original area as thought. So with ZERO plan and ZERO construction happening they are what 3-5 years away, in a best case scenario, from having a rink.

WHL as a league shouldn't like that and won't like that AT ALL.

Fine, just don't ask the people of Winnipeg to support the WHL ever again if they rip the team out of here.

I hope 50 Below sues the **** out of the league too in that case.

The WHL has serious delusions of grandeur. This is what it thinks it is:

This is what it really is:

 

[hockeykid87]

Fine, just don't ask the people of Winnipeg to support the WHL ever again if they rip the team out of here.

I hope 50 Below sues the **** out of the league too in that case.

This is what it really is:

Hey don't dump on Swift. That rink is a good size for junior hockey and the town it's in. Look at what games in Moose Jaw and Medicine Hat look like with their shiny new rinks. 60% empty!

The only people to blame for this Winnipeg ICE situation are Greg Fettes and Matt Cockell. They promised all these great things to the WHL, and delivered on absolutely none of them. You can be frustrated at the WHL, but you're directing your frustration at the wrong people. This is a 50 Below Sports issue, full stop.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Hey don't dump on Swift. That rink is a good size for junior hockey and the town it's in. Look at what games in Moose Jaw and Medicine Hat look like with their shiny new rinks. 60% empty!

The only people to blame for this Winnipeg ICE situation are Greg Fettes and Matt Cockell. They promised all these great things to the WHL, and delivered on absolutely none of them. You can be frustrated at the WHL, but you're directing your frustration at the wrong people. This is a 50 Below Sports issue, full stop.

Why would I be frustrated with 50 Below? They give me an extremely entertaining product at a reasonable price. They are not the ones wanting to rip the team out of Winnipeg.

The WHL guys should be satisfied that there is a well run team making serious inroads in a crowded market. That is a real long term gain to the WHL's advantage. They are delusional if they think that someone is going to go out there and spend a hundred million dollars on a new rink right now like covid never happened.

 

[MeHateHe]

Fine, just don't ask the people of Winnipeg to support the WHL ever again if they rip the team out of here.

I hope 50 Below sues the **** out of the league too in that case.

The WHL has serious delusions of grandeur. This is what it thinks it is:

This is what it really is:

This is all a bit much.

There's a world of difference between what the WHL expects of rinks in its communities and an NHL rink. There's also a world of difference between a modern WHL arena - or even a 30-year-old rink like that in Prince George or Kamloops - and a facility that can fit 1,600, with bench seating. It's standard to expect that as you increase the quality of play, you increase the quality of rink. And with all due respect to the U of Manitoba, a 1,600 seat rink is appropriate for Junior B or, in extreme cases, Junior A.

But fundamentally, this is a business arrangement, and if you can't trust those you're in business with to follow through on their commitments - and there is no dispute that the team promised they'd be moving into a suitable arena - then that relationship isn't tenable. You might think the team will be happy to lose money forever in an unsuitable arena, but a money-losing venture is an unstable venture and the league is right to be concerned that for one of a number of reasons, the continuation of losses could cause the team to suddenly become some kind of headache. What happens in an emergency: say one of the partners suddenly dies or is involved in some kind of financial irregularity/scandal? If the team is profitable, that's a lot easier to weather than if the team's finances are not looking so good.

And finally, the league has 22 owners to be concerned about, and other prospective cities to be mindful of. Nanaimo has been passed over because it wouldn't build a new rink, despite there currently being an arena bigger than the one the Ice are playing in. The fact that the team has failed to meet its obligations to the league and community means that requirements the league places on the rest of the clubs are harder to enforce. So if the Oil Kings lose their arena deal, do you think the league should just give the green light to the team moving to Baytex Energy Centre in beautiful suburban Peace River, where they could cram 1,600 fans into the building 34 nights a year? It's ridiculous, as ridiculous as a team playing long-term in a tiny rink on the university campus with no plan in sight.

The WHL is better with Winnipeg in, for lots of reasons, not the least of which is geography. But if there's a choice between Winnipeg with a bad business partner and no Winnipeg at all, I'd take the latter 20 times out of 20.

 

[jetsmooseice]

But fundamentally, this is a business arrangement, and if you can't trust those you're in business with to follow through on their commitments - and there is no dispute that the team promised they'd be moving into a suitable arena - then that relationship isn't tenable. You might think the team will be happy to lose money forever in an unsuitable arena, but a money-losing venture is an unstable venture and the league is right to be concerned that for one of a number of reasons, the continuation of losses could cause the team to suddenly become some kind of headache. What happens in an emergency: say one of the partners suddenly dies or is involved in some kind of financial irregularity/scandal? If the team is profitable, that's a lot easier to weather than if the team's finances are not looking so good.

This is the paragraph that cuts to the heart of the matter, so I'll respond to it.

First, if 50 Below has failed to meet its commitments I think it's reasonable to look at the circumstances contributing to the situation. I think you will agree that they are exceptional. Pandemic, cancelled playoffs, cancelled season, another cancelled playoffs, then another season disrupted by game cancellations and capacity limits. Compound that with inflation and rising interest rates. Suddenly business plans written in 2019 are no longer realistic. 50 Below is far from the only company to have its plans scuttled. If nothing else, the extraordinary nature of the last few years should earn 50 Below a little patience and forbearance from the WHL.

As for continuity, how many teams in the league are on rock-solid foundations? Many of them depend on the hard work of local volunteers or benevolent owners. Winnipeg is no different in that regard. Fettes and Cockell are not 90 year old men, they're young and they have a lot of years ahead of them. Besides, who is to say that another owner wouldn't step up to keep the team in Winnipeg if 50 Below was no longer in the picture?

The bottom line is that maybe the WHL is pissed off that it couldn't bully 50 Below into making a nearly hundred million dollar investment on its own timelines. Understandable. We all tend to get mad when we don't get our way. But the league shouldn't act foolishly and rashly and poison the WHL's brand in Winnipeg by extracting the team from owners who are more than willing and able to continue operating it.

 

[MeHateHe]

First, if 50 Below has failed to meet its commitments I think it's reasonable to look at the circumstances contributing to the situation.

The bottom line is that maybe the WHL is pissed off that it couldn't bully 50 Below into making a nearly hundred million dollar investment on its own timelines. Understandable. We all tend to get mad when we don't get our way. But the league shouldn't act foolishly and rashly and poison the WHL's brand in Winnipeg by extracting the team from owners who are more than willing and able to continue operating it.

Sorry, but this is not a dispute between seventh graders about who gets the next turn on the tether ball. The company that controls the club made commitments to the league about getting a new arena started within three years. As Paul Friesen's article points out, there hasn't been any meaningful progress toward that. Okay, pandemic. The league, which has been wanting to get back into the Winnipeg market for decades, would be foolish not to take that into account.

But at some point, the league is going to be asking if they're working with an operator that can do more than make promises. Never mind shovels in the ground. Is there a location? A business case? Anything other than a promise? The pandemic gets you some grace, for sure.

But no, the league is not going to (and shouldn't) simply sit back and say it's okay for the company to operate the franchise at a significant loss in an arena that is so far below standards as to be laughable for an indefinite period of time. As I said, the ownership's capacity for managing losses is only a factor for so long. As more time passes, the risk grows that something bad happens: a bill doesn't get paid, or one of the partners gets divorced or whatever. Uncertainty is terrible for business and so the league is looking for a way to drive down that risk.

At the end of the day, the league has to figure out if they have a partner that A) has the capacity to make good on its commitments and B) is acting in good faith. The answers to both of those questions has to be yes, and given what we've seen to date, (from the outside at least) it doesn't look like it is.

If, as has been reported, a silent fine has been levied, that's probably not a bad way of reminding the team to put their poop in a pile. Nobody is kicking the team out. Nobody is forcing the ownership to turn over control. And by keeping (mostly) quiet about it, they're choosing to let the ownership know they're willing to work with them. That kind of patience can't and shouldn't last forever.

 

[jetsmooseice]

If, as has been reported, a silent fine has been levied, that's probably not a bad way of reminding the team to put their poop in a pile. Nobody is kicking the team out. Nobody is forcing the ownership to turn over control. And by keeping (mostly) quiet about it, they're choosing to let the ownership know they're willing to work with them. That kind of patience can't and shouldn't last forever.

If 50 Below's terms of ownership with the WHL have some sort of penalty provision for not getting an arena built on time then fair enough, the league can enforce it. Although I'm not sure how hitting the owners with a half million dollar fine, as has been reported, is supposed to expedite construction of a new arena. The beatings will continue until morale improves, etc.

Where I take real issue with the WHL are the part of the reports that suggest the league is on the verge of taking over the franchise and moving it elsewhere for next season. Leaving the questionable logistics of that aside, to me that would be an unforgivable slap in the face by the WHL that this city should not forgive if the league ever comes knocking on our door again.

 

[MeHateHe]

Where I take real issue with the WHL are the part of the reports that suggest the league is on the verge of taking over the franchise and moving it elsewhere for next season. Leaving the questionable logistics of that aside, to me that would be an unforgivable slap in the face by the WHL that this city should not forgive if the league ever comes knocking on our door again.

The league wasn't and isn't going to jump straight to the nuclear option. The fine isn't about expediting the arena construction; it's a first step to let the club know that the league is serious about expecting the club to live up to its commitments. It's a reminder of those expectations, and perhaps there is an implied warning that the next step will be tougher.

As far as this being a slap in the face to Winnipeg, I'll repeat what others have said. The club made commitments to the league and have not lived up to them - and have shown no real sign of getting there. This has nothing to do with the community; it's all on the club. The league has its faults, but at end of the day, if someone you have a contract with reneges on one of the terms of the contract, then there are consequences. That's what's playing out here.

 

[UpwardBoss]

Fine, just don't ask the people of Winnipeg to support the WHL ever again if they rip the team out of here.

The people of Winnipeg don't support the WHL in the first place. They have tons of empty... bench space I guess, not seats technically, all the time. In the smallest arena in the CHL by a wide margin. A city under a million people doesn't need 3 different hockey teams. You already have an NHL and an AHL team.

 

[Hollywood3]

The people of Winnipeg don't support the WHL in the first place. They have tons of empty... bench space I guess, not seats technically, all the time. In the smallest arena in the CHL by a wide margin. A city under a million people doesn't need 3 different hockey teams. You already have an NHL and an AHL team.

It's all theoretical. The venue is not adequate for the crowds they need. I have seen almost every Bison game there since the NHL lockout season and beyond 800 or so people it gets difficult for concessions and washrooms to handle the line-ups. The owners need to at least make a firm announcement next year. There is land at the U of M.

 

[BE Friend]

No WHL team owns a building do they? or O or the Q for that matter? 100 $mil is tough to manage for 100 (potential) event dates per year for a private operator. City operator required for that,

 

[PCSPounder]

I really don't see any benefit for the league being in Buttf***, Washington

Hey hey hey HEY! One need not be cursing about the place when the town is already known as The Snatch. Although a side trip up the road to Leavenworth might be illuminating for most people.

 

[jetsmooseice]

It's all theoretical. The venue is not adequate for the crowds they need. I have seen almost every Bison game there since the NHL lockout season and beyond 800 or so people it gets difficult for concessions and washrooms to handle the line-ups. The owners need to at least make a firm announcement next year. There is land at the U of M.

What is "adequate"? I go to ICE games and I have everything I need to enjoy the game. Even when the place is sold out it's never that much trouble to get food and drinks from the concession stands.

The only thing that 50 Below dropped the ball on when they improved Wayne Fleming Arena in 2019 was failing to add another washroom somewhere. The one measly men's and women's rooms are not up to the job. They do usually open up the Fieldhouse washroom but it's not obvious and people don't use it.

I also think they could make better use of the south entrance by letting people enter through there as well as through the north doors. But that's a minor issue.

 

[BE Friend]

Hey hey hey HEY! One need not be cursing about the place when the town is already known as The Snatch. Although a side trip up the road to Leavenworth might be illuminating for most people.

They made the urban dictionary

The Snatch​

• 
  

A regionally-known nickname for Wenatchee, Washington. Used most often by those who live in or near the Wenatchee area. Despite the crude alternate meaning of this nickname, it can be used affectionately or disparagingly in reference to the Wenatchee area.

Wenatchee, also known as the "apple capital of the world", is one of the major cities and the cultural center for Central Washington State.
Let's head to the Snatch and get drunk at the Apple-Blossom festival!

 

[PCSPounder]

They made the urban dictionary

The Snatch​

• 
  

A regionally-known nickname for Wenatchee, Washington. Used most often by those who live in or near the Wenatchee area. Despite the crude alternate meaning of this nickname, it can be used affectionately or disparagingly in reference to the Wenatchee area.

Wenatchee, also known as the "apple capital of the world", is one of the major cities and the cultural center for Central Washington State.
Let's head to the Snatch and get drunk at the Apple-Blossom festival!

The cultural center for Central Washington… is everyone required to diss Yakima like that?

But there might be more money in The Snatch.

 

[tank44]

Wenatchee has the 2nd highest attendance in the BCHL at 2,640 out of 4300 capacity built in 2008. They are an outlier being the only US team in the BCHL league. They are in the middle of the state and about 2-3 hours from each Spokane, TriCities, Everett & Seattle. Wenatchee metro is also listed at about 120K population t's not a bad option for relocation.

 

[BE Friend]

Wenatchee has the 2nd highest attendance in the BCHL at 2,640 out of 4300 capacity built in 2008. They are an outlier being the only US team in the BCHL league. They are in the middle of the state and about 2-3 hours from each Spokane, TriCities, Everett & Seattle. Wenatchee metro is also listed at about 120K population t's not a bad option for relocation.

Solid option. Even up the conf numbers. The US clubs dominate attendance in the whole league. Winnipeg always a stretch to be considered western. Yes , I know unofficial the border is Toronto.

Every radio guy would love to promo the "snatch" somehow.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Solid option. Even up the conf numbers. The US clubs dominate attendance in the whole league. Winnipeg always a stretch to be considered western. Yes , I know unofficial the border is Toronto.

Every radio guy would love to promo the "snatch" somehow.

How is Winnipeg a stretch to be considered western? Are there similar doubts expressed about Brandon?

 

[PCSPounder]

Time to defuse a little.

I posted some years ago about conversations had in Boise media in the 1990s when the WHL was resisting proposals from Boise ownership as their arena was being built. That ownership promised a WHL team.

First they wanted to buy Tri-City. But that was a no-go for the WHL because that would remove the ”travel partner” closest to Boise. Then they went after Brandon, and what one journalist reported back was that an agreement within the CHL would have been triggered by the move, giving the QMJHL recruiting rights in Manitoba because the Dub would have ”abandoned” the province at that point. Hence why I mailed in a question here about Steinbach as the 3rd largest city in the province. Keeping the Ice in Manitoba is kind of an insurance policy IMO, FWIW, and that opinion may not even be worth the price of coffee in Portland.

Not that Wenatchee wouldn’t excite me.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Time to defuse a little.

I posted some years ago about conversations had in Boise media in the 1990s when the WHL was resisting proposals from Boise ownership as their arena was being built. That ownership promised a WHL team.

First they wanted to buy Tri-City. But that was a no-go for the WHL because that would remove the ”travel partner” closest to Boise. Then they went after Brandon, and what one journalist reported back was that an agreement within the CHL would have been triggered by the move, giving the QMJHL recruiting rights in Manitoba because the Dub would have ”abandoned” the province at that point. Hence why I mailed in a question here about Steinbach as the 3rd largest city in the province. Keeping the Ice in Manitoba is kind of an insurance policy IMO, FWIW, and that opinion may not even be worth the price of coffee in Portland.

Not that Wenatchee wouldn’t excite me.

An insurance policy against what, exactly, though?

It's hard to imagine Manitoba becoming QMJHL country. Wouldn't it more likely be assigned to the OHL? It would be a much easier sell to get recruits to go to a place like Peterborough or Guelph as compared to somewhere like Baie-Comeau or Val d'Or.

Steinbach is growing fast and may in another 25 years be ready for the WHL. But it's not there yet. Even a somewhat compromised Winnipeg situation is probably going to be a better place for the league than somewhere like Steinbach. I don't think there is any other place in Manitoba that could realistically handle the WHL. Maybe possibly one day Morden-Winkler could team up and build an arena halfway between their cities (sort of like their hospital). But that would be a massive ask for a team with no history and track record in their communities.

 

[PCSPounder]

From what I’ve subsequently read, the CHL has strict draft territories. Hence why nobody in the Dub drafts Ontario kids.

Where I really read this is where it extends into the US. Somehow, Minnesota is in WHL territory. All the states are literally divided up for CHL draft territory.

 

[jetsmooseice]

From what I’ve subsequently read, the CHL has strict draft territories. Hence why nobody in the Dub drafts Ontario kids.

Where I really read this is where it extends into the US. Somehow, Minnesota is in WHL territory. All the states are literally divided up for CHL draft territory.

I get that states and provinces are assigned to the three CHL leagues, but it seems way more logical that if Manitoba wasn't part of WHL territory, that it would be part of OHL territory instead as opposed to skipping over all of Ontario and being part of the Q.

But that said, I don't expect Manitoba to leave the WHL's territory regardless of what happens to the ICE or even the Wheat Kings.

 

[Jets4Life]

Why would I be frustrated with 50 Below? They give me an extremely entertaining product at a reasonable price. They are not the ones wanting to rip the team out of Winnipeg.

The WHL guys should be satisfied that there is a well run team making serious inroads in a crowded market. That is a real long term gain to the WHL's advantage. They are delusional if they think that someone is going to go out there and spend a hundred million dollars on a new rink right now like covid never happened.

Yet this is precisely what 50 Below had promised, when they bought and moved the ICE to Winnipeg. Construction of a 4,000+ seat arena in the Southwest area of the city. They failed to deliver, and construction on the arena is years away.

In retrospect, why on Earth any group would think putting a WHL team in a city that is already over saturated with the NHL and AHL, is beyond me. Even the Jets rarely ever sellout, and the Moose are lucky to draw 3500 fans on most nights. Bringing a WHL team to Winnipeg in 2003 would have been money in the bank. However, a metro area of 850,000 people is too small to support three hockey league franchises, Even Calgary is struggling to get over 3,000 people to come to AHL Wranglers games.

 

[Jets4Life]

I get that states and provinces are assigned to the three CHL leagues, but it seems way more logical that if Manitoba wasn't part of WHL territory, that it would be part of OHL territory instead as opposed to skipping over all of Ontario and being part of the Q.

But that said, I don't expect Manitoba to leave the WHL's territory regardless of what happens to the ICE or even the Wheat Kings.

This is the main reason Thunder Bay may never have a CHL team, regardless of arena and ownership. They are too far west for an OHL team, and too far east for a WHL team.

 

[Jets4Life]

The people of Winnipeg don't support the WHL in the first place. They have tons of empty... bench space I guess, not seats technically, all the time. In the smallest arena in the CHL by a wide margin. A city under a million people doesn't need 3 different hockey teams. You already have an NHL and an AHL team.

That's not true. When the Brandon Wheat Kings held the occasional game in Winnipeg once a year, the crowds would average between 4,000-5,000. We are talking about a team from Brandon, so it's impressive.

The only reason the WHL has not been sucessful in 2019-23, is obvious reason- pver saturation. Take away the Jets, and the Ice would be the #1 team in the city. True North was dead set against sharing the arena with any WHL team, since they were legitimately fearful that the WHL team would be more popular, considering tickets would be cheaper, the rivalries against Brandon, Regina, Saskatoon, and Calgary would be bigger draws than Wilkes-Barre, Rockford, Utica, etc. There is also the matter of not having to worry about the best players on the team, getting called up by the parent organisation.