New Winnipeg Ice Arena

[RetroWinnipeg]

Heard a wild, wild rumour the other day that the ICE will be relocating after this season. Ownership is losing money hand over fist and there's no new arena deal in sight. I was even told as far as it will be confirmed and announced within 10 days of the Memorial Cup ending. Wouldn't that be something if they won it all then left town a week later?

Except that the Ice are promoting season tickets for the 2023-24 season in-house and online. It would seem like the Fettes are willing to continue their pet project a little longer.

 

[hockeykid87]

Except that the Ice are promoting season tickets for the 2023-24 season in-house and online. It would seem like the Fettes are willing to continue their pet project a little longer.

Don't say I didn't warn you...

CRACK IN THE ICE: First-place WHL team could be on last legs in Winnipeg

The Winnipeg Ice have built a dominant WHL team, but their failure to build a new rink puts the franchise’s future in question. Read more.

winnipegsun.com

 

[PCSPounder]

Just saw this on Gregg Drinnan’s blog, and that version is pushing Chilliwack and Wenatchee without even mentioning Estevan.

Someone want to tell me about Steinbach MB?

 

[oldunclehue]

Just saw this on Gregg Drinnan’s blog, and that version is pushing Chilliwack and Wenatchee without even mentioning Estevan.

Someone want to tell me about Steinbach MB?

Steinbach is a community of about 18,000 people 45 minutes southeast of Winnipeg. They are currently building a new facility in the community. Have a very successful MJHL franchise.

Rumors for some time is once the arena is done, it is being build to the capacity of a USHL rink. That Steinbach will try to push to be accepted into the USHL. Not sure if thats true or their is any precedence to a USHL team in Canada.

Steinbach is not big enough to support a WHL team. And its another hour east of Winnipeg, WHL teams will fight that travel just like they did with Winnipeg getting a team.

I don't know the "BelowZero" finaicial situation but supposedly they have ended their relationship with "The Rink" business in Winnipeg as well.

I believe Peguis First Nation has plans to build a 5000 seat arena in the city, but who knows that timeline.

I do not believe this team will be in Winnipeg much longer.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Steinbach is a community of about 18,000 people 45 minutes southeast of Winnipeg. They are currently building a new facility in the community. Have a very successful MJHL franchise.

Rumors for some time is once the arena is done, it is being build to the capacity of a USHL rink. That Steinbach will try to push to be accepted into the USHL. Not sure if thats true or their is any precedence to a USHL team in Canada.

Steinbach is not big enough to support a WHL team. And its another hour east of Winnipeg, WHL teams will fight that travel just like they did with Winnipeg getting a team.

I don't know the "BelowZero" finaicial situation but supposedly they have ended their relationship with "The Rink" business in Winnipeg as well.

I believe Peguis First Nation has plans to build a 5000 seat arena in the city, but who knows that timeline.

I do not believe this team will be in Winnipeg much longer.

Thunder Bay was in the USHL for many years so there is precedent.

Steinbach's new arena will have 2,400 seats. Perfect for a successful MJHL team. Not so hot for the WHL given what they aspire to. And literally every USHL rink is bigger. Although in reality, 2,400 seats are probably enough for a small market team like Steinbach would be if it was in the WHL (only 17,000 in Steinbach itself so not much bigger than Swift Current, but there are probably a few thousand more in the surrounding area in Ste. Anne, Lorette, Mitchell, etc.). It's about 40 minutes by highway from Winnipeg so they will not get a bump in attendance from Winnipeg fans. I can tell you I sure as hell won't be going to Steinbach to watch them, ha.

IMO it's hard to see how the WHL would be better off in Steinbach vs. Winnipeg. Obviously it would be the big show in that town. But it would be a very small market, almost an extra hour down the road, and the rink would not be much bigger than the one they'd be leaving behind in Winnipeg. The only real reason to do it would be to keep the USHL out if the WHL thinks there will be an incursion on its "turf".

The smartest thing for the WHL to do here would be to butt out and let 50 Below keep running its team.

 

[oldunclehue]

Thunder Bay was in the USHL for many years so there is precedent.

Steinbach's new arena will have 2,400 seats. Perfect for a successful MJHL team. Not so hot for the WHL given what they aspire to. And literally every USHL rink is bigger. Although in reality, 2,400 seats are probably enough for a small market team like Steinbach would be if it was in the WHL (only 17,000 in Steinbach itself so not much bigger than Swift Current, but there are probably a few thousand more in the surrounding area in Ste. Anne, Lorette, Mitchell, etc.). It's about 40 minutes by highway from Winnipeg so they will not get a bump in attendance from Winnipeg fans. I can tell you I sure as hell won't be going to Steinbach to watch them, ha.

IMO it's hard to see how the WHL would be better off in Steinbach vs. Winnipeg. Obviously it would be the big show in that town. But it would be a very small market, almost an extra hour down the road, and the rink would not be much bigger than the one they'd be leaving behind in Winnipeg. The only real reason to do it would be to keep the USHL out if the WHL thinks there will be an incursion on its "turf".

The smartest thing for the WHL to do here would be to butt out and let 50 Below keep running its team.

Issue is the rink thing, they haven't put any shovels in the ground or done anything on it. Rinks aren't cheap to build and take time. So what 2-3-4-5 years away before an arena is built? And it has to meet certain specifications due to True North's agreement with the city on rink sized/seats.

So does the WHL continue to let this team operate in a city without a rink plan, compete against AHL/NHL for fans and from all accounts BelowZero seems to be making more enemies then friends.

Or force them to sell/move team where there is a more stable ownership and plans for the club.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Issue is the rink thing, they haven't put any shovels in the ground or done anything on it. Rinks aren't cheap to build and take time. So what 2-3-4-5 years away before an arena is built? And it has to meet certain specifications due to True North's agreement with the city on rink sized/seats.

With all due respect, why is that the WHL's problem? If the ICE are operating in an undersized venue and 50 Below is fine paying the bills and covering the losses, then how does that concern the WHL? Why is this a situation that the WHL needs to intervene in?

I'm a season ticket holder. I like 50 Below's product and I happily pay them for it. I don't appreciate the league stepping in and meddling in that relationship. If 50 Below is happy and ticket buyers like me are happy with this arrangement, then what's the matter?

And who are these enemies that 50 Below is making?

 

[oldunclehue]

With all due respect, why is that the WHL's problem? If the ICE are operating in an undersized venue and 50 Below is fine paying the bills and covering the losses, then how does that concern the WHL? Why is this a situation that the WHL needs to intervene in?

I'm a season ticket holder. I like 50 Below's product and I happily pay them for it. I don't appreciate the league stepping in and meddling in that relationship. If 50 Below is happy and ticket buyers like me are happy with this arrangement, then what's the matter?

And who are these enemies that 50 Below is making?

My understanding is that the deal for them to move to Winnipeg hinged on building an arena SW of the city which hasn't happened. If they don't live up to whatever deal they have with the league, the contract/league likely has means to recify that.

The owners of The Rink kicked out the Winnipeg Blues from their facilities and I was told 50 Below and them had a falling out.

So enemies would be: WHL, Owners, fans, hockey people in the city and The Rink group.

 

[jetsmooseice]

My understanding is that the deal for them to move to Winnipeg hinged on building an arena SW of the city which hasn't happened. If they don't live up to whatever deal they have with the league, the contract/league likely has means to recify that.

The owners of The Rink kicked out the Winnipeg Blues from their facilities and I was told 50 Below and them had a falling out.

So enemies would be: WHL, Owners, fans, hockey people in the city and The Rink group.

The WHL has a bee in its bonnet, no question there. But as for The Rink, no reason for the falling out on the arena project was ever publicized, although an inability to come to terms on a construction project isn't necessarily making enemies. It could have simply been a matter of dollars and cents. The Blues still play at The Rink and the ICE still maintain their facilities there.

Also, I am not aware of any enmity towards the ICE on the part of fans and hockey people. I'd say that the latter group, hockey people, are probably the team's biggest supporters.

If the league is miffed about the lack of a new arena, then levy the fine and move on. There is no need to use the nuclear option. That's the one approach that will guarantee that a WHL arena never gets built in Winnipeg.

 

[PCSPounder]

When looking at the moving options, my reflexive subconscious said Chilliwack… because, if they can’t get the Moose out of Winnipeg, they’ll mess with Abbotsford instead. The original Chilliwack WHL got moved to Victoria so the Dub could head off the AHL on the island, after all.

However, there’s also the desire for engineered arena envy the WHL has been able to pull off in some cases. It’s harder to push for a new Prince Albert arena, for instance, if someone else is playing in a 1,000-seat barn.

Don’t forget, however, that it is often the league office’s job to be the fall guys for ownership actions. 50 Below says they’re losing money hand over fist, so a league mandate may well be an excuse to move again.

 

[jetsmooseice]

However, there’s also the desire for engineered arena envy the WHL has been able to pull off in some cases. It’s harder to push for a new Prince Albert arena, for instance, if someone else is playing in a 1,000-seat barn.

I don't doubt that is a large part of the impetus. The people in MJ must feel like idiots paying a mortgage on a massive arena that is double the size they need. They are the equivalent of the guy who is going through a midlife crisis and goes out to buy a Corvette he can barely afford. That feeling is probably heightened when they see the ICE playing in a barn like Wayne Fleming. But it's too late, small cities like MJ, Medicine Hat and others have already been fleeced and what happens in Winnipeg won't change that.

 

[BE Friend]

Don't say I didn't warn you...

CRACK IN THE ICE: First-place WHL team could be on last legs in Winnipeg

The Winnipeg Ice have built a dominant WHL team, but their failure to build a new rink puts the franchise’s future in question. Read more.

winnipegsun.com

Interesting read. The half mil fine and denial is worthy of reporters time in WPG. The league putting on the powerplay I guess. Wonder if the plan along was to string this out, make a team a winner on the ICE and sell before having to pony up for new arena deal. Owners only make money - real money - when the team is sold.

 

[BigZ65]

My understanding is that the deal for them to move to Winnipeg hinged on building an arena SW of the city which hasn't happened. If they don't live up to whatever deal they have with the league, the contract/league likely has means to recify that.

The owners of The Rink kicked out the Winnipeg Blues from their facilities and I was told 50 Below and them had a falling out.

So enemies would be: WHL, Owners, fans, hockey people in the city and The Rink group.

The dub is nuts to harass this ownership group out of Winnipeg/the league.

The amount of attention they receive in Winnipeg media far outweighs any loss of credibility they have from playing in an undersized rink. The WHL is routinely in the top stories in Winnipeg papers/online news. I'm a little too young to remember when the WHL was here in the 80s but I can say confidently the WHL was never in the media here at all save for the odd time the Wheat Kings made a big run they'd get a bit of shine. There was an era when the Wheat Kings would play their first round playoffs in Winnipeg as they'd get evicted by the fair in Brandon.

Winnipeg is crawling with NHL scouts and GM's being a NHL market and a city more accessible by plane. The dub should be happy to have more of these markets...huge selling point to top players making the junior/college choice.

I really don't see any benefit for the league being in Buttf***, Washington or BC over Winnipeg...but the league is run by ownership and the BC/US owners clearly do not want more teams on the prairies. That's the way it's been my whole life...they don't see the benefits of Winnipeg as a market even if they played in an empty rink.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

My only ideal solution to this is having them play at Canada Life Centre until an arena situation is resolved.

Sure, it may have three teams playing there, but so do the Flames at their rink. Plus building a new rink is too complicated.

 

[UpwardBoss]

My only ideal solution to this is having them play at Canada Life Centre until an arena situation is resolved.

Sure, it may have three teams playing there, but so do the Flames at their rink. Plus building a new rink is too complicated.

The Hitmen are owned by the Flames though (and I wonder how long that'll last to be honest with them moving the Wranglers there). The Ice aren't, and the Jets aren't gonna play ball with them.

Calgary is also a significantly larger market

 

[hockeykid87]

My only ideal solution to this is having them play at Canada Life Centre until an arena situation is resolved.

Sure, it may have three teams playing there, but so do the Flames at their rink. Plus building a new rink is too complicated.

Unfortunately a 0% chance of that happening as the owners of the Jets/Moose are not friendly with the owners of the ICE.

 

[BE Friend]

Who has the upper hand - ICE or the League?

 

[jetsmooseice]

Unfortunately a 0% chance of that happening as the owners of the Jets/Moose are not friendly with the owners of the ICE.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. There are numerous individual links between TNSE and 50 Below. Just look at who runs 50 Below and their past involvement/connections with 50 Below. At nearly every ICE game there are people from TNSE on hand watching. They might not be corporate BFFs but I think there is some appreciation on TNSE's part of what the ICE bring to Winnipeg. And let's face it, TNSE is not afraid of the ICE. Even if they might cost them a few Moose ticket sales, the ICE are simply not a threat in the long run.

That is not to say that TNSE wants to bend over backwards to help the ICE either. They have their own business to run and I can appreciate that they will only rent out their arena if it makes financial sense for them to do it.

Having said all that, I don't think it necessarily makes sense for the ICE to rent Canada Life Centre anyway. It would probably cost a hell of a lot more than playing at Wayne Fleming and I'm not sure it would attract a ton of extra fans anyway. Wayne Fleming is seldom ever full... it only happened this season when Connor Bedard was in town. And as anyone who has been to a Moose game with 3,000 fans in the stands knows, the atmosphere at CLC is nonexistent when the place is mostly empty. So what exactly is being gained by moving to CLC?

Who has the upper hand - ICE or the League?

The league has final say, so they do. But the league should tread carefully given that Winnipeg is one of the largest markets in the WHL region, and yanking the team away from owners who appear willing to continue operating it would be a massive betrayal of fans. Who would trust the WHL again after something like that?

 

[Hollywood3]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. There are numerous individual links between TNSE and 50 Below. Just look at who runs 50 Below and their past involvement/connections with 50 Below. At nearly every ICE game there are people from TNSE on hand watching. They might not be corporate BFFs but I think there is some appreciation on TNSE's part of what the ICE bring to Winnipeg. And let's face it, TNSE is not afraid of the ICE. Even if they might cost them a few Moose ticket sales, the ICE are simply not a threat in the long run.

That is not to say that TNSE wants to bend over backwards to help the ICE either. They have their own business to run and I can appreciate that they will only rent out their arena if it makes financial sense for them to do it.

Having said all that, I don't think it necessarily makes sense for the ICE to rent Canada Life Centre anyway. It would probably cost a hell of a lot more than playing at Wayne Fleming and I'm not sure it would attract a ton of extra fans anyway. Wayne Fleming is seldom ever full... it only happened this season when Connor Bedard was in town. And as anyone who has been to a Moose game with 3,000 fans in the stands knows, the atmosphere at CLC is nonexistent when the place is mostly empty. So what exactly is being gained by moving to CLC?



The league has final say, so they do. But the league should tread carefully given that Winnipeg is one of the largest markets in the WHL region, and yanking the team away from owners who appear willing to continue operating it would be a massive betrayal of fans. Who would trust the WHL again after something like that?

Maybe some playoff games could be played at CLC.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Maybe some playoff games could be played at CLC.

I was thinking about that when I wrote my last post. If the ICE have a round vs. Regina I could see Bedard being a hot ticket, which is ironic because he's just one guy... the ICE have their own young star who is pretty similar in terms of ability, plus a way, way better supporting cast. But regardless, I could see those games drawing enough fans (5,000+) to justify the cost of renting CLC. Same with the league final assuming the ICE make it that far.

But is it worth the hassle? Then the ICE are paying for two arenas (I doubt the U of M will give them a refund). And the headaches of setting up shop in another building on a temporary basis. I think they're better off just staying at Wayne Fleming. Unless the WHL is so worried about it for whatever reason that they would be willing to pay for the ICE to rent CLC.

 

[BE Friend]

Normally it is the team folding / imploding financially rather than the league yanking the rug.

Will be pulling for the ICE to win it all this year so the story can get even juicier.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Normally it is the team folding / imploding financially rather than the league yanking the rug.

Will be pulling for the ICE to win it all this year so the story can get even juicier.

The league would look like a bunch of idiots if it revoked the franchise from a championship team with owners more than willing and able to continue operating it.

 

[BE Friend]

The ICE certainly have had a colourful existence over a short period of time. Just now appreciating it.
Three cities, championships and banners, outdoor game. Fettes sounds like he has deep pockets. Good margins in outsourcing.
Until I hear him say - We are committed to staying in Winnipeg - probably content to eat the losses (and Fines?) as a hockey fan. And cash out on his terms - what city wants to build him an arena?

 

[jetsmooseice]

The ICE certainly have had a colourful existence over a short period of time. Just now appreciating it.
Three cities, championships and banners, outdoor game. Fettes sounds like he has deep pockets. Good margins in outsourcing.
Until I hear him say - We are committed to staying in Winnipeg - probably content to eat the losses (and Fines?) as a hockey fan. And cash out on his terms - what city wants to build him an arena?

The city won't build him an arena, at least not the City of Winnipeg itself. The original subsidy agreement with TNSE prevents that from happening. I think the province may also be implicated, I'm not sure.

He can try partnering up with other entities that might be interested in having an arena like the U of M, the Red River Exhibition, First Nations with land developments, maybe outlying towns interested in attracting the team, etc. But not Winnipeg itself. And to be honest, I doubt he ever expected that to be viable. The "build me an arena or I move the team" tactic will have absolutely zero impact if he were foolish enough to try playing that card.

 

[oldunclehue]

The city won't build him an arena, at least not the City of Winnipeg itself. The original subsidy agreement with TNSE prevents that from happening. I think the province may also be implicated, I'm not sure.

He can try partnering up with other entities that might be interested in having an arena like the U of M, the Red River Exhibition, First Nations with land developments, maybe outlying towns interested in attracting the team, etc. But not Winnipeg itself. And to be honest, I doubt he ever expected that to be viable. The "build me an arena or I move the team" tactic will have absolutely zero impact if he were foolish enough to try playing that card.

So then what's the solution? As a League the WHL wants professionalism and success, having a franchise play games in an old University arena with bench seats that houses 1600 fans tops isn't really a great look on the league, no matter if the organization is making/losing money and they are willing to lose money for the forseeable future.

Fact is they need an arena....it won't be built in Winnipeg unless it means the specifications that TNSE/City/province have in place. It isn't being built in the original area as thought. So with ZERO plan and ZERO construction happening they are what 3-5 years away, in a best case scenario, from having a rink.

WHL as a league shouldn't like that and won't like that AT ALL.