Speculation: More Players who need to be protected in an expansion draft.

JetsHomer

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
10,941
3,146
Actually he's number 50 on the dot. So why does everyone want him if he's such a piss poor prospect

This is where you are confused, no one wants him if the cost is Shattenkirk, Trouba or Barrie. In a world where Adam Larsson returns Taylor Hall, three guys that are better than Larsson are only worth Mantha? You see how that doesn't make sense, right?
 

Maukkis

EZ4ENCE
Mar 16, 2016
10,674
7,506
Your not under standing, I don't care what your player is worth. Shattenkirk is not a top 2 dman. Lol Colton,piety, lol he is not he is overrated just because he is "available" he's a rental lol I really doubt he would resign

Do you realize that a) I'm not a Blues fan, and b) proven trumps potential by an absolute long shot?

Trade for Shattenkirk now, and you'll get a full year of his services. That is not a rental. A rental is someone who you trade for at the deadline. Mantha does not come close to his value as of right now.

But yeah, keep laughing. Based on your prediction "I doubt he would resign", which doesn't even specify which team he wouldn't re-sign with, I don't think you know all that much.
 

burrythebiscuit*

Registered User
Mar 6, 2016
191
0
This is where you are confused, no one wants him if the cost is Shattenkirk, Trouba or Barrie. In a world where Adam Larsson returns Taylor Hall, three guys that are better than Larsson are only worth Mantha? You see how that doesn't make sense, right?

No I'm not confused. Hall for larsson is a horrible trade lol I'm content with Mantha going through growing pains
 

burrythebiscuit*

Registered User
Mar 6, 2016
191
0
This is where you are confused, no one wants him if the cost is Shattenkirk, Trouba or Barrie. In a world where Adam Larsson returns Taylor Hall, three guys that are better than Larsson are only worth Mantha? You see how that doesn't make sense, right?

Um also just so you know I'd trade trade any of those three for Mantha with more then a year left. A person that only has a year is considered a rental. PERIOD
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
Ummm your high, that is completely insane. Green did a solid job .

Never said he didn't. But Shattenkirk is younger and has been, as of the last three years, the superior player. That's likely not going to change with Green nearly 31 years old.

It's not up for discussion, the answer would be no. Let me say it one more time. NO!

So you don't want the better, younger player who will probably only command $500K-$1M more in salary? Why, exactly? Do you not like your team very much?

Everyone wants Mantha but he has " low value"

What value do you expect an unproven forward prospect to have, exactly? He's played exactly 10 NHL games and has yet to be an elite point producer in the league below the NHL.

green for shatty is a lateral move. And actually hurts the team.

Neither is remotely true. Shattenkirk has out-produced Green the last three seasons while playing better defence. He's also, as noted, younger. It absolutely helps Detroit.

You want some good in return of that value you stated . nothing that would interest the wings to do something that desperate.PERIOD.

Again, you must really dislike your own club if you wouldn't improve an important position for zero significant roster assets.

Either you accept it or don't. You guys are losing him that's very evident

I'm not a Blues fan, so there's another thing you're wrong on.
 

tucker3434

HFBoards Sponsor
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Apr 7, 2007
20,018
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Atlanta, GA
I'm not moving Mantha for shattenkirk without an extension. And Barrie for Mantha is insane. Undersized dman that has some compareables in our system like vili and hicketts for a huge power forward that has the upside to be worth a lot. The wings are not in a good trading spot for what's available. Holland is losing out on everyone available worth the cost. Barrie, shattenkirk do not make Detroit a better team for the price you'd have to give up

Wow, there's overrating your prospects. Then there's this...
 

oilerbear

Registered User
Jun 2, 2008
3,168
199
Vegas paid how much to get into the league? I think they deserve at least a half decent player from each team then. So the expansion rules seem fair to me.

Rosters are usually
14 fwd
7D
2 goalies

divide each by 2
7fwd
3.5D
1 goalie

so the
7 fwd
3 D
1 G is fair but the fwd/D ratio is 2 /1

so the options should be
7fwd; 3d; 1G
5fwd; 4D; 1G
3 fwd; 5D; 1G
 

oilerbear

Registered User
Jun 2, 2008
3,168
199
No I'm not confused. Hall for larsson is a horrible trade lol I'm content with Mantha going through growing pains

there are on avg 30 shots in a game.

there are 19.5 Low scoring chance area *****.
below league average in shooting 8.5% or less
25% of the games goals are scored from the 19.5 shots.

There are on average 10.5 high scoring chance area shots.
75% of the goals result from these shots.
Men allow 7.5 to 13.5 of these shots.

you kind of want the D that give up the leaatst HSCA shots.

larsson
top10 HSCAD
#9 Sa/60 D
#1 GA/60 D in the ;league
#12 PKGA D
He has taken over as the best def D in the game.

Plus he is atop 40 EVA/60 D. which is the most important part of an Off dman's game.
WHY?

cause when you look at the 5th best goal scoring D in the game.
175 forwards have generated equator more goals.

top 5 D and forwards #1-6 on most teams.
35 times as many

#6-15 Dmen and forwards #7 and #8 generate equal or more goals
6.5 time as many

#16 - 30 Dmen and forwards #9 and #10
4 times as many.

300 forwards score equator more goals than the top 30 D.

Can you guess who drives the offence in the game?
How quickly should men get the puck in Forwards hands?
ASAP!

you might want to learn some of the trite sayings.
"go to the net."
"defend the net"

When I first brought up the concept of effective shot area. HSCA
on lowetides site.it ws met with great resistance.

But it was a visual picture remembered from watching the flip flon bombers of Clarke; Leach; Stoughton as a 5-6 year old boy.
the violence was about going to the net and protecting the net.

and
shot targeting effectiveness should parrallel hunting targeting.
 
Last edited:

oilerbear

Registered User
Jun 2, 2008
3,168
199
This is where you are confused, no one wants him if the cost is Shattenkirk, Trouba or Barrie. In a world where Adam Larsson returns Taylor Hall, three guys that are better than Larsson are only worth Mantha? You see how that doesn't make sense, right?

you lack the understanding of how you win a cup.

Rhett warner one of the best HSCA anchor D
1996 cup final FLD
1998 cup final BUF
2004 cup final CGY

Had a great quote
"it takes
3 GF to outscore 2 GA
4 gf to outscore 3 GA
5 GF to outscore 4GA
in the playoffs 4 and 5 aint happening"

If you think that getting the best Expected GA d in the game for a top 30 GF forward.
is bad.

Enjoy the lottery!

Cup contending structure
1. top 8 HSCA save% goalie
2. 3+ top 60 HSCA D
3. 2-3 even scoring pairs or lines

PiT 2016:
1. Murray 2nd best HSCA save% start to career
2. Lovejoy; Dumoulin; cole
3. Malkin +; Crosby +; HBK

CHI: 2015
1. Crawford
2. Hjarlmasson; Oduya; Keith
3. Toews; Hossa; Kane Sharp; Saad; Shaw

LAK: 2014
1. Quick
2. Martinez; Muzzin; Voynov; Doughty; Greene; Mitchell 6 D in the top 20
3.Williams; copier; Carter; Brown; Toffoli; Paerson King 7 of the top 11 EVP fwd

CHI; 2013
1. Crawford
2. Hjarlmasson; Oduya; Roszival
3. Kane; Bickell; Sharp; Hossa; Toews; Handzus 6 of the top 14 fwds
Boston had 6 of the top 14
but there D did not perform at a top end HSCA level.

LAK: 2012
1. Quick
2.Doughty; Greene; Scuderi; Mitchell; Martinez; Voynov 6 D in the top 30
3. Kopitar; brown; williams; penner; all tied for 2nd in EVp; Doughty; Richards; Carter all tied for 9th.

So forgive my Gm for getting the best HSCA; EVGA; PKGA; d man in the game.
If your going get something!
shoot for the stars!
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,829
11,513
Hell
Holy god, Pulock is a painful one for the Isles. Five defensemen who all need protection now...

Is it one of Pulock or Strome now, Isles fans?

Thankfully no one worth a damn needs to be protected at forward.

Boychuk
Leddy
Hamonic
De Haan
Pulock
Tavares
Ladd

Give the last spot to Nelson/Strome/Lee based on how this year goes. Not ideal, but not awful either.
 
Last edited:

JetsHomer

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
10,941
3,146
you lack the understanding of how you win a cup.

Rhett warner one of the best HSCA anchor D
1996 cup final FLD
1998 cup final BUF
2004 cup final CGY

Had a great quote
"it takes
3 GF to outscore 2 GA
4 gf to outscore 3 GA
5 GF to outscore 4GA
in the playoffs 4 and 5 aint happening"

If you think that getting the best Expected GA d in the game for a top 30 GF forward.
is bad.

Enjoy the lottery!

Cup contending structure
1. top 8 HSCA save% goalie
2. 3+ top 60 HSCA D
3. 2-3 even scoring pairs or lines

PiT 2016:
1. Murray 2nd best HSCA save% start to career
2. Lovejoy; Dumoulin; cole
3. Malkin +; Crosby +; HBK

CHI: 2015
1. Crawford
2. Hjarlmasson; Oduya; Keith
3. Toews; Hossa; Kane Sharp; Saad; Shaw

LAK: 2014
1. Quick
2. Martinez; Muzzin; Voynov; Doughty; Greene; Mitchell 6 D in the top 20
3.Williams; copier; Carter; Brown; Toffoli; Paerson King 7 of the top 11 EVP fwd

CHI; 2013
1. Crawford
2. Hjarlmasson; Oduya; Roszival
3. Kane; Bickell; Sharp; Hossa; Toews; Handzus 6 of the top 14 fwds
Boston had 6 of the top 14
but there D did not perform at a top end HSCA level.

LAK: 2012
1. Quick
2.Doughty; Greene; Scuderi; Mitchell; Martinez; Voynov 6 D in the top 30
3. Kopitar; brown; williams; penner; all tied for 2nd in EVp; Doughty; Richards; Carter all tied for 9th.

So forgive my Gm for getting the best HSCA; EVGA; PKGA; d man in the game.
If your going get something!
shoot for the stars!

what are you even talking about dude
 

Avs44

Registered User
May 16, 2011
21,746
10,364
what are you even talking about dude

He has one stat that he clings to, HSCA, and he uses it to formulate every argument he ever makes. Words like context are not part of his vocabulary. He's basically the epitome of what is wrong with some of the advanced stats crowd; never watch games, but a few cherrypicked stats allows him to delude himself into thinking he knows everything. If you've read his post for the past few years, you'd be surprised the Oilers aren't a top cup contender, because he uses a few cherrypicked stats to display they're pretty much the best at everything.
 

Canada4Gold

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
43,001
9,192
He has one stat that he clings to, HSCA, and he uses it to formulate every argument he ever makes. Words like context are not part of his vocabulary. He's basically the epitome of what is wrong with some of the advanced stats crowd; never watch games, but a few cherrypicked stats allows him to delude himself into thinking he knows everything. If you've read his post for the past few years, you'd be surprised the Oilers aren't a top cup contender, because he uses a few cherrypicked stats to display they're pretty much the best at everything.

At least it's better than those who pick and choose stats to use when it fits their argument but don't like the same stats and choose others when they don't fit their argument :laugh:
 

Elric

Registered User
May 1, 2015
107
0
In Wheat
Thankfully no one worth a damn needs to be protected at forward.

Boychuk
Leddy
Hamonic
De Haan
Pulock
Tavares
Ladd

Give the last spot to Nelson/Strome/Lee based on how this year goes. Not ideal, but not awful either.

Sanity! Could be wrong but I figure Nelson gets protected, Strome goes later in a trade for good value given Isles have Barzal, and Lee is lost in the draft.
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,829
11,513
Hell
Don't worry Isles fans, Edmonton will help you out. Mark Fayne + 3rd 2017 + 2nd 2018 for Boychuk. You get to keep Nelson and get out from under the Boychuk contract four years sooner while paying less in the interim. Deal?

The only deal to be made is something around Eberle for Boychuk.

Any other (realistic) deal makes the NYI much worse short and long term.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
16,009
10,555
For Detroit to get a long-term solution to their defence while off-loading the Green contract without any sort of retention is a net boon for the Wings. They can't possibly afford both he and Shattenkirk. Even if they could, it's a good bet they'd lose a better player in the expansion draft due to protection limits. All things considered, Shattenkirk + 2nd + 3rd for Green + Mantha + Pulkkinen is a perfectly reasonable swap.

Wowzer bread, you do not understand the value of d-men. Green only nets a 2nd and a 3rd, when d-men are ridiculously overpriced nowadays, due to lack of good ones.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
16,009
10,555
For Detroit to get a long-term solution to their defence while off-loading the Green contract without any sort of retention is a net boon for the Wings. They can't possibly afford both he and Shattenkirk. Even if they could, it's a good bet they'd lose a better player in the expansion draft due to protection limits. All things considered, Shattenkirk + 2nd + 3rd for Green + Mantha + Pulkkinen is a perfectly reasonable swap.

The Wings aren't trying to offload Green's contract. It is only this year and next year, and if they want him gone bad enough, they leave him exposed in the expansion draft anyways.
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
The only deal to be made is something around Eberle for Boychuk.

Sorry, Snow had his shot at a top winger for a D in the form of Eberle and then Hall for Hamonic, but chose to whiff on both deals. You all will have to be content with Ladd and Parenteau leading the charge.

Any other (realistic) deal makes the NYI much worse short and long term.

So losing an important young player for nothing hurts less than converting a less-important asset into draft picks and keeping the U25 core pretty much intact? Okay.

Wowzer bread, you do not understand the value of d-men. Green only nets a 2nd and a 3rd, when d-men are ridiculously overpriced nowadays, due to lack of good ones.

Detroit can choose to do it or not, I don't really care. If they want to tie their hopes and dreams to the two years remaining on Mike Green's contract instead of actually acquiring a long-term solution, that's up to them. As it is, Holland hasn't ever really shown much of an appetite for upgrading the D, so I guess he's content with that and Red Wings fans should be too. However, both will remember this summer as their lost opportunity to get better at an important position for an incremental cost.
 

PatrikOverAuston

Laine > Matthews
Jun 22, 2016
3,573
989
Winnipeg
The Wings aren't trying to offload Green's contract.

For an upgrade? No, it doesn't appear as such. Weird choice but it's your team.

It is only this year and next year, and if they want him gone bad enough, they leave him exposed in the expansion draft anyways.

Or they could, you know, trade him for some sort of package containing zero salary while netting a guy who can lead the D for 8-10 years. However, if you'd rather have an older, less effective Green for the next two seasons and then have to start all over finding a top pairing guy on the open market in 2018, be my guest. As an Oilers fan, I know full well players Shattenkirk's caliber aren't available just any day of the week. If Detroit doesn't land him, they are likely not going to find a better option.

Just to prove that out, here's the 2018 UFA class as it stands now:

1. Mike Green (RHD)
2. Tobias Enstrom
3. Jason Garrison
4. Francois Beauchemin
5. Jack Johnson
6. ME Vlasic
7. Alexei Emelin
8. Cam Fowler
9. Kevin Bieksa (RHD)
10. Zdeno Chara
11, John Carlson (RHD)
12. Josh Gorges
13. Dan Hamhuis
14. Mark Fayne (RHD)
15. Luca Sbisa

Literally the only superior right-handed option to Green that is even approaching UFA two years from now is John Carlson. That is. It. Detroit then must either sign an inferior option, hope Green can still be an effective player until he's 40, or try for a trade. However, the Red Wings don't have an asset like Johansen or Hall to move, which rules out acquiring even a younger defenceman.

Not a good situation, but if that's to your liking, be my guest.
 

MikeyMike01

U.S.S. Wang
Jul 13, 2007
14,829
11,513
Hell
So losing an important young player for nothing hurts less than converting a less-important asset into draft picks and keeping the U25 core pretty much intact? Okay.

Yes, trading Boychuk for literally nothing of value (your offer) is worse than losing someone in the expansion draft (which will happen anyway).

Wowzer bread, you do not understand the value of d-men. Green only nets a 2nd and a 3rd, when d-men are ridiculously overpriced nowadays, due to lack of good ones.

You'd think after getting bent over a barrel by NJ, EDM fans would understand better than anyone what a defenseman is worth. :laugh:
 

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