WWE: Monday Night Raw 170 - Taking out the trash

[Kimi]

I hear that shawn hickenbottom guy was "Okay" too.

Don't get it twisted, the roster was absolutely STACKED from the late 90s on up.

Austin, Rock, HHH, HBK, Taker, Kane, big show, jericho, the hardys, edge & christian, the dudleyz, x-pac was alright, shane was a maniac, then there's other guys who were good but never got a real push like test. Then they brought in benoit, guerrero, angle etc.

If WCW was remotely competent, no one is jumping ship and the WWF dies.

The WCW roster blows WWF's out of the water. It isn't even remotely close. A lot of guys you list there were non-factors in the actual outcome of the 'war', they came along after everything was already decided.


WWF didn't win the war. WCW were so incredibly badly run that they kill themselves. WWF only just survived, and since then they've done a really good job of making people think that they 'won' with their re-writing and twisting of history. The reality is that WCW was always going to die, all WWF did was hang on long enough to see WCW crash and burn.


While Rock and Austin helped WWF massively, they would have 'won' without them. By 1997 WWF were basically the winners. Nothing after that point mattered as WCW were on the path to destruction.

Not that WCW couldn't have been saved. There was plenty of time for them to turn it all around, but it never happened.

 

[Emperoreddy]

WWF wasn't putting on very good shows week to week in 97.

WCW's ineptitude is absolutely legendary.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I wonder where wrestling would be or what would have happened if WCW won the war instead.

 

[Engebretson]

By 1997 WWF were basically the winners. Nothing after that point mattered as WCW were on the path to destruction.

I always bring it back to Starrcade '97.

If WCW doesn't blow the payoff to the Sting/Hogan match and what should have been the culmination of the NWO saga, they would have still had a fighting chance. Them screwing up that booking opened the door for WWF to get their own hot angle even hotter with Austin/McMahon and WCW was never able to fully recover.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I always bring it back to Starrcade '97.

If WCW doesn't blow the payoff to the Sting/Hogan match and what should have been the culmination of the NWO saga, they would have still had a fighting chance. Them screwing up that booking opened the door for WWF to get their own hot angle even hotter with Austin/McMahon and WCW was never able to fully recover.

Thing is it was impossible for them to get it right because of the contract and creative control Hogan had.

 

[Kimi]

I always bring it back to Starrcade '97.

If WCW doesn't blow the payoff to the Sting/Hogan match and what should have been the culmination of the NWO saga, they would have still had a fighting chance. Them screwing up that booking opened the door for WWF to get their own hot angle even hotter with Austin/McMahon and WCW was never able to fully recover.

For WWF that was an important moment, but for WCW it didn't really matter.


It should have been the beginning of the end of the nWo, with Sting leading the charge. But they failed completely and ruined their TV show (well, the story at least, the TV was already really bad). Early 98 was when the ratings flipped in favour of WWF, and this certainly had no small part in keep WCW on the slope down. The fans were sick of nWo and they started to leave.

But WCW's issues were already well entrenched backstage at this point. It's what lead them down the road they took in the first place. The outcome of this match doesn't change any of that so they were still going down.

 

[The Lunatic Fridge]

If WCW was remotely competent, no one is jumping ship and the WWF dies.

The WCW roster blows WWF's out of the water. It isn't even remotely close. A lot of guys you list there were non-factors in the actual outcome of the 'war', they came along after everything was already decided.


WWF didn't win the war. WCW were so incredibly badly run that they kill themselves. WWF only just survived, and since then they've done a really good job of making people think that they 'won' with their re-writing and twisting of history. The reality is that WCW was always going to die, all WWF did was hang on long enough to see WCW crash and burn.


While Rock and Austin helped WWF massively, they would have 'won' without them. By 1997 WWF were basically the winners. Nothing after that point mattered as WCW were on the path to destruction..

1) Triple H and Shawn Michaels were LITERALLY the reason WWE started fighting back against WCW. They both told vince straight up, whatt they're doing isn't working and its getting them killed and that he had to change it up and thats what started it all.

2) Austin was the real crown piece to kill WCW (not by himself obviously) Austin's character of kicking the **** out of his boss (something every low level employee on earth wanted to see) rocketted WWE to the moon and everyone instantly forgot what WCW stood for much less existed.

Maybe they could have "won without them" but they would have been a crippled mess in comparison to what happend with them.

 

[These Are The Days]

For WWF that was an important moment, but for WCW it didn't really matter.


It should have been the beginning of the end of the nWo, with Sting leading the charge. But they failed completely and ruined their TV show (well, the story at least, the TV was already really bad). Early 98 was when the ratings flipped in favour of WWF, and this certainly had no small part in keep WCW on the slope down. The fans were sick of nWo and they started to leave.

But WCW's issues were already well entrenched backstage at this point. It's what lead them down the road they took in the first place. The outcome of this match doesn't change any of that so they were still going down.

Completely agree with all of this. WCW couldn't put down the shovel and stop burying themselves. The entire NWO Hollywood/Wolfpac angle is arguably the biggest botch in wrestling history. All that leadup after Starrcade 97 for them to throw it away in a conspiracy screwjob ended by the fingerpoke of doom. WWF would've swung the ratings war back in their favor after Mania 14 almost no matter what happened but literally all WCW would have had to do was ride Goldberg in 1998 instead of continuing the NWO nonsense.

The advent of Bill Goldberg never ceases to amaze me. It's not a surprise he rose to stardom the way he did.... for once fans had something different than NWO. I honestly cannot believe that the big boys back stage actually let him have a run with the championship the way he did.

 

[DenisSamson3]

So many similarities that I can come up with comparing the battle of Stalingrad and WCW starcade in the monday night wars

 

[Emperoreddy]

Completely agree with all of this. WCW couldn't put down the shovel and stop burying themselves. The entire NWO Hollywood/Wolfpac angle is arguably the biggest botch in wrestling history. All that leadup after Starrcade 97 for them to throw it away in a conspiracy screwjob ended by the fingerpoke of doom. WWF would've swung the ratings war back in their favor after Mania 14 almost no matter what happened but literally all WCW would have had to do was ride Goldberg in 1998 instead of continuing the NWO nonsense.

The advent of Bill Goldberg never ceases to amaze me. It's not a surprise he rose to stardom the way he did.... for once fans had something different than NWO. I honestly cannot believe that the big boys back stage actually let him have a run with the championship the way he did.

So much of that is how much creative control they gave Hogan and Nash.

They were doomed the moment Hogan signed in the dotted line. Look at the **** he pulled without it with Vince. Giving that ******* control was never a good idea, no matter how desperate you were.

 

[ColePens]

My question in regards to Starcade 97... why was Sting so out of shape and not prepared? If he was building for 9 months, he could have went on the run of the century if he just prepared for it.

Is part of it his fault, too>?

 

[Emperoreddy]

Sting admitted he wasn't in the best shape for that match, but this was Hogan ******** **** through and through along with Easy E not making sure the ref knew what the damn finish was.

They knew where Sting was at during that period, but they stayed committed to putting him over in the biggest story line ever.

They still put the belt on Sting. All that happened was Hogan avoided doing the clean job...again and it cost them everything in the long run.

 

[Le Tricolore]

Sting then had to give up the belt a few days later because of the crappy finish. WCW was such a mess.

 

[The Apologist]

Of course the attitude era was luck. You had two generational stars (Austin and Rock) in one era. You had huge competition from WCW and Vince had his back against the ropes.

But even with his back against the ropes, Vince himself was less responsible for his company booming than the incompetent ownership of his rivals.

What I wouldn't give for a real monday night war right now.
This monopoly is absolutely killing the business.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I'm actually enjoying NJPW and ROH much more than WWE right now.

Could just be the newness of it cause I've never really followed/watched them other than in passing until recently but it also could be that it's mostly wrestling and not overbooked messes, cringe worthy segments, super pushes or the same matches over and over. Probably a bit of both.

 

[Kimi]

But even with his back against the ropes, Vince himself was less responsible for his company booming than the incompetent ownership of his rivals.

What I wouldn't give for a real monday night war right now.
This monopoly is absolutely killing the business.

For a business that's being killed, how come the indies are doing better than ever right now?

There are so much great wrestling right now, more than there has been in a long long time.

 

[The Apologist]

For a business that's being killed, how come the indies are doing better than ever right now?

There are so much great wrestling right now, more than there has been in a long long time.

I think we can both agree that while the indies are doing well they are hardly main stream. Perhaps I should have specified main stream as Im sure that wrestling will always have its hardcore base.

I'm actually enjoying NJPW and ROH much more than WWE right now.

Could just be the newness of it cause I've never really followed/watched them other than in passing until recently but it also could be that it's mostly wrestling and not overbooked messes, cringe worthy segments, super pushes or the same matches over and over. Probably a bit of both.

I think there's also the fact that they are able to 'fly under the radar' which gives them more flexibility. They generally have better stories and well thought out characters (some a little edgier) rather than the WWEs current flip floppy, changing every second, try to please everyone while really pleasing basically nobody mentality. The smaller promotions know who their fanbase is and plays to that well.
The WWE seems like theyre always trying to straddle that line between 'attitude' and 'cartoon superhero' and 'socially responsible'.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Holy **** guys!!! Kurt Angle is back!!!!!

 

[GKJ]

Indy's are doing better because they get more social media exposure, among some other things. They do well for themselves, but don't make up for what WWE has lost over the last 10 years

 

[BonMorrison]

Why am I watching this

 

[Emperoreddy]

Indy's are doing better because they get more social media exposure, among some other things. They do well for themselves, but don't make up for what WWE has lost over the last 10 years

The whole product of wrestling is niche right now.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Extreme Rules fatal 5 way for number one contender at Great Balls of Fire

Seth vs Joe vs Finn vs Bray vs Roman

 

[Brock Anton]

Finn is winning that.

 

[GKJ]

Finn obviously isn't winning is he isn't just given his chance. He shouldn't have to fight for a title he's owed a rematch to

 

[Emperoreddy]

Finn got the biggest pop. Roman got the most boos. Crowd didn't care about the other 3.