Proposal: Mitch Marner for Seth Jones

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Jesus how the **** is this **** show still running.

 

[Holymakinaw]

There are 16 centers better than him (at least).

Funny how, according to the NHL..........and what do they know, right?............Matthews is #4 in the "top-20 Centres in the league".

#NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Centers

 

[Atomos2]

There is a reason he plays limited minutes. Most young players struggle under heavier workloads. If Babcock felt he would be better with more minutes, he would play him more - that is clearly not the case. Stop acting like his production would increase with more minutes; you don't know that. He would likely be less effective with heavier minutes. His usage now keeps him from wearing down and getting too banged up as he is not done maturing/developing.

And apparently you know that? He plays limited minutes because the leafs are a deep team and their 1st powerplay unit run by Marner is one of the best if not the best in the league. It has nothing to do with the potential to "struggle under heavy workloads" lol. Leafs have a deep forward core and use it. Considering how strong of a team they were/are its not really that hard to understand.

 

[Spazkat]

Funny how, according to the NHL..........and what do they know, right?............Matthews is #4 in the "top-20 Centres in the league".

#NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Centers

You are referring to the same NHL pollsters who think Malkin isn't one of the top 100 players .... and using them as an authority of some sort on player rankings?

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are referring to the same NHL pollsters who think Malkin isn't one of the top 100 players .... and using them as an authority of some sort on player rankings?

Haha, good point.

 

[Holymakinaw]

You are referring to the same NHL pollsters who think Malkin isn't one of the top 100 players .... and using them as an authority of some sort on player rankings?

I don't know about that, but if you look at their list here, you'll find Malkin at #3.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't know about that, but if you look at their list here, you'll find Malkin at #3.

That's a fair point as well. I'm not a big believer in in lists but anyone who discards these lists and wants to argue that Matthews is the 17th best centre in the NHL should address what I posted earlier, I'd be curious as I'm still waiting to see what the thought process is behind putting Matthews that low. I'll post again the numbers I posted earlier, would be interesting to see who these 16 centres are ahead of Matthews and how they rank in 5v5 Pts/60 and so on. I'm not a huge stats guy and these were complied by someone else but they do look impressive!.



Matthews second year:
5v5 G/60 - 1.68 (1st in the NHL - 22% higher than second place Karlsson. Matthews was also 1st in his rookie season) (Tavares was at 0.93 last year. His best year was the shortened 2012/13 season when he was 1.32)

5v5 Pts/60 - 2.91 (3rd in the NHL behind McDavid and MacKinnon. 31st in his rookie season.) (Tavares was 2.02 last year. His best year was 2.38 in 2013/14)

5v5 Primary Pts/60 2.58 (1st in the NHL by a pretty healthy margin. 7th in his rookie season) (Tavares was 1.61 last year. His best year was 2.09 in 2015/16)

The last time a player had a 5v5 G/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Nash in 2014/15. Stamkos did in 2011/12. Ovechkin has not.

The last time a player had a 5v5 Primary Pts/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Perry in 2013/14. Crosby exceeded it (often by a wide margin) several years before that. Malkin did once. Patrick Kane has never come close.

Career 5v5 Primary Pts/60 Crosby has 2.25, Matthews 2.24, McDavid 2.22, Malkin 2.11. Barzal is at 2.04 Others are far behind (Kucherov: 1.83, Tavares 1.70, Drai: 1.53, Eichel: 1.39)

Career 5v5 G/60: Matthews 1.61; Laine 1.24; Boeser 1.22, Stamkos 1.19; Ovechkin 1.19; Nash 1.16 (Tavares 0.93) (The gap between number 2 and number 6 is very close. The gap between Matthews and the 2nd place player is bonkers)

What Matthews has done is pretty special. He hasn't had the luxury of getting to load up on points by playing 75% of the PP time on a top heavy unit. Kucherov, Drai, Eichel, Tavares etc. Despite all of them being older, none of them have been able to do what Matthews has been able to do.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Pfftt..The NHL what do they know?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Deleted double post

 

[BAM]

So now because of led minutes he jumps ahead of several better centers. Malkin plays behind Crosby, Mathews was number 1, Malkin gets ok time too. Doesn't score to much more during pk. Sorry but Mathews is not top ten yet maybe top 20 but not top 10

It's almost like the Pens were back to back cup champs and didn't need to go balls to the wall in the regular season...and wrong, Matthews's TOI last year was 18.08, Malkin playing behind Crosby still had 19.00 minutes of TOI a game. Crosby for reference had 20.41 of ice time.

Matthews had the 41st most ice time among centers in the NHL last year and was still on pace for 83 points...what do you think is going to happen when he plays around 20 minutes? or 21 minutes like McDavid.

In 225.79 more minutes than Matthews last year, Jack Eichel had 1 more point...LOL

In 116.85 more minutes than Matthews last year, Mark Scheifele had 3 less points...LOL


Babcock prefers to balance his ice time among his forwards and defensemen...which does no favours for their individual point totals. Considering the team success though from being dead last 2 years ago to 6th best record last year and 2 years of playoffs, it's not like his method isn't seeing results. As opposed to McDavid and Barkov playing 22 minutes a game for their team to have a shot at winning.

 

[BAM]

This below was recently posted in another thread, something to consider for the person who has 16 centres ranked ahead of Matthews. I doubt there is a good argument for ranking 16 guys ahead of Matthews but if there is, I look forward to seeing the supporting evidence.

Matthews second year:
5v5 G/60 - 1.68 (1st in the NHL - 22% higher than second place Karlsson. Matthews was also 1st in his rookie season) (Tavares was at 0.93 last year. His best year was the shortened 2012/13 season when he was 1.32)

5v5 Pts/60 - 2.91 (3rd in the NHL behind McDavid and MacKinnon. 31st in his rookie season.) (Tavares was 2.02 last year. His best year was 2.38 in 2013/14)

5v5 Primary Pts/60 2.58 (1st in the NHL by a pretty healthy margin. 7th in his rookie season) (Tavares was 1.61 last year. His best year was 2.09 in 2015/16)

The last time a player had a 5v5 G/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Nash in 2014/15. Stamkos did in 2011/12. Ovechkin has not.

The last time a player had a 5v5 Primary Pts/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Perry in 2013/14. Crosby exceeded it (often by a wide margin) several years before that. Malkin did once. Patrick Kane has never come close.

Career 5v5 Primary Pts/60 Crosby has 2.25, Matthews 2.24, McDavid 2.22, Malkin 2.11. Barzal is at 2.04 Others are far behind (Kucherov: 1.83, Tavares 1.70, Drai: 1.53, Eichel: 1.39)

Career 5v5 G/60: Matthews 1.61; Laine 1.24; Boeser 1.22, Stamkos 1.19; Ovechkin 1.19; Nash 1.16 (Tavares 0.93) (The gap between number 2 and number 6 is very close. The gap between Matthews and the 2nd place player is bonkers)

What Matthews has done is pretty special. He hasn't had the luxury of getting to load up on points by playing 75% of the PP time on a top heavy unit. Kucherov, Drai, Eichel, Tavares etc. Despite all of them being older, none of them have been able to do what Matthews has been able to do.

Hopefully it'll result in not having to pay him what McDavid, Eichel makes. Who knows, maybe that was part of the reason he did that with Matthews, to get a generational talent to underperform in "basic stats" that anyone and their grandma could look at on NHL.com by limiting his ice-time, power-play deployment to get him locked up into a better contract long term only to let the reigns off once he signs that big deal.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's almost like the Pens were back to back cup champs and didn't need to go balls to the wall in the regular season...and wrong, Matthews's TOI last year was 18.08, Malkin playing behind Crosby still had 19.00 minutes of TOI a game. Crosby for reference had 20.41 of ice time.

Matthews had the 41st most ice time among centers in the NHL last year and was still on pace for 83 points...what do you think is going to happen when he plays around 20 minutes? or 21 minutes like McDavid.

In 225.79 more minutes than Matthews last year, Jack Eichel had 1 more point...LOL

In 116.85 more minutes than Matthews last year, Mark Scheifele had 3 less points...LOL


Babcock prefers to balance his ice time among his forwards and defensemen...which does no favours for their individual point totals. Considering the team success though from being dead last 2 years ago to 6th best record last year and 2 years of playoffs, it's not like his method isn't seeing results. As opposed to McDavid and Barkov playing 22 minutes a game for their team to have a shot at winning.

I believe the theory is that Matthews might not be able to handle playing more minutes and if he were to play a couple more minutes per game, his production might plummet.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

JFC close this thread already @mods

 

[hector morrison]

Yah dump on Jackets fan because they dont want to trade you their better more valuable player for your lesser piece. Classy

That wasn't a dump! I think(thought) Columbus was for real! So...What happened? I feel it is a question of balance. As previously stated(not expecting folks to read every post here) Are the Jackets in need of offense ,cause Marner be bringin that by the boat load. At the cost of Jones,you feel it creates a hole on the back end. I get it! But ,isn't there anyone that can fill that hole at a decent level. Also, from my limited viewing, looks to me like Werenski will be thew one to take over.
It's a trade off that addresses needs on both teams...add assets where necessary, just keep it reasonable.

 

[NoName]

Funny how, according to the NHL..........and what do they know, right?............Matthews is #4 in the "top-20 Centres in the league".

#NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Centers

That's a fair point as well. I'm not a big believer in in lists but anyone who discards these lists and wants to argue that Matthews is the 17th best centre in the NHL should address what I posted earlier, I'd be curious as I'm still waiting to see what the thought process is behind putting Matthews that low. I'll post again the numbers I posted earlier, would be interesting to see who these 16 centres are ahead of Matthews and how they rank in 5v5 Pts/60 and so on. I'm not a huge stats guy and these were complied by someone else but they do look impressive!.



Matthews second year:
5v5 G/60 - 1.68 (1st in the NHL - 22% higher than second place Karlsson. Matthews was also 1st in his rookie season) (Tavares was at 0.93 last year. His best year was the shortened 2012/13 season when he was 1.32)

5v5 Pts/60 - 2.91 (3rd in the NHL behind McDavid and MacKinnon. 31st in his rookie season.) (Tavares was 2.02 last year. His best year was 2.38 in 2013/14)

5v5 Primary Pts/60 2.58 (1st in the NHL by a pretty healthy margin. 7th in his rookie season) (Tavares was 1.61 last year. His best year was 2.09 in 2015/16)

The last time a player had a 5v5 G/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Nash in 2014/15. Stamkos did in 2011/12. Ovechkin has not.

The last time a player had a 5v5 Primary Pts/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Perry in 2013/14. Crosby exceeded it (often by a wide margin) several years before that. Malkin did once. Patrick Kane has never come close.

Career 5v5 Primary Pts/60 Crosby has 2.25, Matthews 2.24, McDavid 2.22, Malkin 2.11. Barzal is at 2.04 Others are far behind (Kucherov: 1.83, Tavares 1.70, Drai: 1.53, Eichel: 1.39)

Career 5v5 G/60: Matthews 1.61; Laine 1.24; Boeser 1.22, Stamkos 1.19; Ovechkin 1.19; Nash 1.16 (Tavares 0.93) (The gap between number 2 and number 6 is very close. The gap between Matthews and the 2nd place player is bonkers)

What Matthews has done is pretty special. He hasn't had the luxury of getting to load up on points by playing 75% of the PP time on a top heavy unit. Kucherov, Drai, Eichel, Tavares etc. Despite all of them being older, none of them have been able to do what Matthews has been able to do.

So now we have all the advanced stats, as well as the traditional stats backing up the media insiders polls and the NHL player's survey I previously listed that all list Matthews as a top centre and one of the single most valuable players in the NHL, far ahead of Jones. Blue Jacket's fans do you have any hard data evidence to present supporting your case that Jones is worth similar or greater value than Matthews? Because right now the facts seem pretty conclusive.
All of this pretty much definitively shows why the Leafs would never consider trading Matthews 1 for 1 with Jones.

Also, some more Stats to add: Matthews is tied for 12th last season (with now fellow Leaf John Tavares) in points per game among centres with 1.02.

The one thing he was way below league average his rookie season was faceoffs. Last season he was 54.5%

Oh and here are his advanced stats: Auston Matthews Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Over past two season, overall NHL rank:
goals created per game: 9th
even strength goals: 1st, 5th
adjusted goals: 2nd
goals per game: 5th, 2nd
goals created: 8th
adjusted goals created: 8th
offensive point-shares: 9th

So yes, to reiterate, the stats as well as player and media opinions all back up that Matthews is near or at a top-10 level of centre right now and in the future will definitely keep climbing up the ranks.

 

[Leaf Fans]

So now we have all the advanced stats, as well as the traditional stats backing up the media insiders polls and the NHL player's survey I previously listed that all list Matthews as a top centre and one of the single most valuable players in the NHL, far ahead of Jones. Blue Jacket's fans do you have any hard data evidence to present supporting your case that Jones is worth similar or greater value than Matthews? Because right now the facts seem pretty conclusive.
All of this pretty much definitively shows why the Leafs would never consider trading Matthews 1 for 1 with Jones.

Well, that playoff series( the only one that mattered) is conclusive proof that Matthews will never perform in the playoffs. Besides he will sign an offer sheet for 5000000 to play in Arizona. Marner plays on the wing and we don't like that so there.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That wasn't a dump! I think(thought) Columbus was for real! So...What happened? I feel it is a question of balance. As previously stated(not expecting folks to read every post here) Are the Jackets in need of offense ,cause Marner be bringin that by the boat load. At the cost of Jones,you feel it creates a hole on the back end. I get it! But ,isn't there anyone that can fill that hole at a decent level. Also, from my limited viewing, looks to me like Werenski will be thew one to take over.
It's a trade off that addresses needs on both teams...add assets where necessary, just keep it reasonable.

This makes a lot of sense (addresses needs on both teams). TBH, if Jones was offered for Marner, our GM may well accept that deal, in fact my guess is he would. And of course Jones is awesome and he wouldn't be offered up for Marner alone. Then there's the fact that many of us Leafs fans simply do not want to part with Marner, maybe not even for Jones.

We do have another young player who is also awesome but who for whatever reason, we're not as attached to as we are to Marner. I'm wondering if CLB needs offence, what would we need to add to Nylander to pry Jones away? I assume CLB fans will say nothing less than Matthews will do and we wouldn't even trade Jones for Matthews blah blah blah but if they can't be realistic, maybe some neutral fans can chime in here? Would Nylander, Kapanen, Brown and a 1st be a reasonable offer?

 

[CujosMask]

Only on these forums is a first pairing, Norris contending defenseman not worth a second line winger.

Wasn't Marner playing fourth line last year? AM is the value for a Seth Jones. Leafs fans need to stop kidding themselves and even then, AMs next contract, which will be huge, means the Leafs would have to add on top with picks to get a stud like Jones.

LMFAO

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Easy no from Leafs

For Jones, we'd have to add something to our standard offer, so:

Jones for Carrick, Leivo, 2nd + 5th.

 

[hector morrison]

This makes a lot of sense (addresses needs on both teams). TBH, if Jones was offered for Marner, our GM may well accept that deal, in fact my guess is he would. And of course Jones is awesome and he wouldn't be offered up for Marner alone. Then there's the fact that many of us Leafs fans simply do not want to part with Marner, maybe not even for Jones.

We do have another young player who is also awesome but who for whatever reason, we're not as attached to as we are to Marner. I'm wondering if CLB needs offence, what would we need to add to Nylander to pry Jones away? I assume CLB fans will say nothing less than Matthews will do and we wouldn't even trade Jones for Matthews blah blah blah but if they can't be realistic, maybe some neutral fans can chime in here? Would Nylander, Kapanen, Brown and a 1st be a reasonable offer?

Yeah , I'm one of those fans that love watching Marner do Marner things so much,I really don't want to see him traded!. In the interest of winning though,it seems to be a general consensus that Leafs need some big time D guy. Jones appears to be an all-rounder of durable quality and would probably do well as a Leaf. However, I truly feel the Leafs can win it all with or without Jones or the like!

 

[Viqsi]

Congratulations, you've successfully chased away all Jackets fans. Can this thread now be moved to the Leafs board?

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

This makes a lot of sense (addresses needs on both teams). TBH, if Jones was offered for Marner, our GM may well accept that deal, in fact my guess is he would. And of course Jones is awesome and he wouldn't be offered up for Marner alone. Then there's the fact that many of us Leafs fans simply do not want to part with Marner, maybe not even for Jones.

We do have another young player who is also awesome but who for whatever reason, we're not as attached to as we are to Marner. I'm wondering if CLB needs offence, what would we need to add to Nylander to pry Jones away? I assume CLB fans will say nothing less than Matthews will do and we wouldn't even trade Jones for Matthews blah blah blah but if they can't be realistic, maybe some neutral fans can chime in here? Would Nylander, Kapanen, Brown and a 1st be a reasonable offer?

sens fan. AM for SJ is about as equal 1v1 as you can get. If I'm a GM of either team, i probably slightly favour AM, but it is hella close.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah , I'm one of those fans that love watching Marner do Marner things so much,I really don't want to see him traded!. In the interest of winning though,it seems to be a general consensus that Leafs need some big time D guy. Jones appears to be an all-rounder of durable quality and would probably do well as a Leaf. However, I truly feel the Leafs can win it all with or without Jones or the like!

Jones is obviously awesome and I'm sure he'd do amazing as a Leaf. The general consensus is wrong IMO, people love to parrot cliches like you can't win without a true #1C or a bonafide #1 Dman and so on and it's all BS, all you need to win is to be a good team and there are many ways of getting there. You'd think that Vegas getting to the final last season would open up some eyes among fans, we'll see if that happens or if the lessons learnt will soon be forgotten. So yes, 100% agree that we don't need Jones, our D is a LOT better than some people think and with Liljegren on the way and Dermott looking as good as he did last season, our D could be could be very good indeed if all we do is be patient and wait a bit. And with an offence as good as ours, we could win it all with our current D, PIT has already shown the world how that works.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

I believe the theory is that Matthews might not be able to handle playing more minutes and if he were to play a couple more minutes per game, his production might plummet.

no, that is not the theory. It is basic stats. The more matthews plays, the more likely his per 60 numbers will regress to the mean

 

[Gary Nylund]

Congratulations, you've successfully chased away all Jackets fans. Can this thread now be moved to the Leafs board?

How did did you get chased away? Was asking for a rationale behind ranking Matthews as the 17th best centre causing you too much stress?

sens fan. AM for SJ is about as equal 1v1 as you can get. If I'm a GM of either team, i probably slightly favour AM, but it is hella close.

LOL. You guys are understandably stressed about losing Karlsson so I won't judge you by this ludicrous opinion. And BTW, the question was what would have to be added to Nylander to make it fair, or are you suggesting that Matthews would be the add?