Proposal: Mitch Marner for Seth Jones

[Notsince67]

And this strategy achieved what exactly? Certainly not playoff success

Babcock likes to balance the lines. I am not saying it is a good strategy

 

[Viqsi]

I think it was two years ago when some FLA fans were telling me that they wouldn't trade Ekblad for McDavid. Not trading Werenski for Matthews isn't quite on that level but still pretty bad.

Similar arguments could be made about not trading Marner for Jones. This is not a constructive line of discussion.

...then again, nothing in this thread is constructive, at this rate.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Similar arguments could be made about not trading Marner for Jones. This is not a constructive line of discussion.

...then again, nothing in this thread is constructive, at this rate.

Yup, it's summertime so ... not that these trade threads are usually of high quality anyway.

Disagree about similar arguments - not trading Ekblad for McDavid was obviously ridiculous whereas not trading Marner for Jones is at least somewhat understandable (at least I think it is ). I already said that in a vacuum, as of today Jones is worth more than Marner. That said, I see something special in Marner and I just don't want to trade him. I could see him dominating this season, if he puts up 90 points then then the Jones vs Marner conversation is completely different. Bottom line, if you're confident as I am that Marner is a franchise player then not trading him for Jones is reasonable, especially when you factor in that he's a few years younger.

I also get you wouldn't trade Jones for Marner, not arguing that you should. If you were offered Matthews for Werenski and turned that down though, that wouldn't be smart.

 

[NoName]

Jones before hitting his current top pair numbers got a 23yo 70pt 30g center. His value is Mathews. Now because his value is the same doesnt mean the leafs should trade Mathews because why would they with that 1 2 punch down the middle but the value is definitely equal

I sincerely doubt any NHL GM would share such an opinion. Or would the majority of neutral observers. Again, this looks like a fan overvaluing their own asset.

 

[Viqsi]

Yup, it's summertime so ... not that these trade threads are usually of high quality anyway.

Disagree about similar arguments - not trading Ekblad for McDavid was obviously ridiculous whereas not trading Marner for Jones is at least somewhat understandable (at least I think it is ). I already said that in a vacuum, as of today Jones is worth more than Marner. That said, I see something special in Marner and I just don't want to trade him. I could see him dominating this season, if he puts up 90 points then then the Jones vs Marner conversation is completely different. Bottom line, if you're confident as I am that Marner is a franchise player then not trading him for Jones is reasonable, especially when you factor in that he's a few years younger.

I also get you wouldn't trade Jones for Marner, not arguing that you should. If you were offered Matthews for Werenski and turned that down though, that wouldn't be smart.

Something something et cetera seeing something incredible and special in Werenski blah blah blah.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Something something et cetera seeing something incredible and special in Werenski blah blah blah.

Haha. What can I say, you got me there.

 

[mikeyp24]

I sincerely doubt any NHL GM would share such an opinion. Or would the majority of neutral observers. Again, this looks like a fan overvaluing their own asset.

You do realize my opinion is the one many in this thread are stat8ng outside of leaf fans right?

 

[The CyNick]

So Marner can win the Hart but Jones won't win the Norris eh . I'd put money on Jones winning the Norris before I put money on Marner winning the Hart.

ITT guy thinks Norris is equivalent to the Hart.

 

[The CyNick]

Jones is more likely to win a Norris then Marner is a hart...

You should hang out with that other guy.

 

[NoName]

You do realize my opinion is the one many in this thread are stat8ng outside of leaf fans right?

That is funny, because it isn’t an opinion that pundits or players seem to share:

NHL players see Leafs’ Auston Matthews as one to build around | The Star

NHLPA Player Poll: McDavid’s fastest, Crosby’s best, Kucherov's still underrated and Gretzky’s the GOAT

Jones doesn’t even make the list. Matthews is number three behind McDavid and Crosby. This can’t just be hand-waived as “Toronto bias”, this is from the players themselves. Matthews has substantially more value then Jones, at least to people who understand hockey best.

Here is another one done by ESPN writers: Which young player would you build a team around?

 

[Colt55]

That is funny, because it isn’t an opinion that pundits or players seem to share:

NHL players see Leafs’ Auston Matthews as one to build around | The Star

NHLPA Player Poll: McDavid’s fastest, Crosby’s best, Kucherov's still underrated and Gretzky’s the GOAT

Jones doesn’t even make the list. Matthews is number three behind McDavid and Crosby. This can’t just be hand-waived as “Toronto bias”, this is from the players themselves. Matthews has substantially more value then Jones, at least to people who understand hockey best.

Here is another one done by ESPN writers: Which young player would you build a team around?

Malkin hit 98 points, shouldn't he be ahead of Mathews. What about Tavares. There are a few more centers who performed better

 

[BAM]

Malkin hit 98 points, shouldn't he be ahead of Mathews. What about Tavares. There are a few more centers who performed better

Performed better or had more ice time than Matthews? Matthews plays less minutes than every other top scorer and still was on pace for 45 goals and 83 points in his 2nd season. Babcock hasn't let Matthews play the minutes that Eichel, McDavid, Tavares, Malkin play. That should start changing this year

 

[Colt55]

Performed better or had more ice time than Matthews? Matthews plays less minutes than every other top scorer and still was on pace for 45 goals and 83 points in his 2nd season. Babcock hasn't let Matthews play the minutes that Eichel, McDavid, Tavares, Malkin play. That should start changing this year

So now because of led minutes he jumps ahead of several better centers. Malkin plays behind Crosby, Mathews was number 1, Malkin gets ok time too. Doesn't score to much more during pk. Sorry but Mathews is not top ten yet maybe top 20 but not top 10

 

[Garbageyuk]

Matthews is the 17th best center in the NHL. He is nowhere near top-10.

 

[rent free]

Malkin hit 98 points, shouldn't he be ahead of Mathews. What about Tavares. There are a few more centers who performed better

The reason Matthews is number 2 on that list is because he says younger than malkin and Crosby and he's already amazing. Malkin and Crosby are better though.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Performed better or had more ice time than Matthews? Matthews plays less minutes than every other top scorer and still was on pace for 45 goals and 83 points in his 2nd season. Babcock hasn't let Matthews play the minutes that Eichel, McDavid, Tavares, Malkin play. That should start changing this year

There is a reason he plays limited minutes. Most young players struggle under heavier workloads. If Babcock felt he would be better with more minutes, he would play him more - that is clearly not the case. Stop acting like his production would increase with more minutes; you don't know that. He would likely be less effective with heavier minutes. His usage now keeps him from wearing down and getting too banged up as he is not done maturing/developing.

 

[boredmale]

Matthews is the 17th best center in the NHL. He is nowhere near top-10.

I am not disputing he is not a top 10 center(at least yet) but how exactly do you come up with the exact number 17?

 

[Garbageyuk]

I am not disputing he is not a top 10 center(at least yet) but how exactly do you come up with the exact number 17?

There are 16 centers better than him (at least).

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are 16 centers better than him (at least).

LOL. Looks like someone didn't understand what he was being asked.

 

[Armourboy]

LOL. Looks like someone didn't understand what he was being asked.

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer.

The question was anything but simple.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This below was recently posted in another thread, something to consider for the person who has 16 centres ranked ahead of Matthews. I doubt there is a good argument for ranking 16 guys ahead of Matthews but if there is, I look forward to seeing the supporting evidence.

Matthews second year:
5v5 G/60 - 1.68 (1st in the NHL - 22% higher than second place Karlsson. Matthews was also 1st in his rookie season) (Tavares was at 0.93 last year. His best year was the shortened 2012/13 season when he was 1.32)

5v5 Pts/60 - 2.91 (3rd in the NHL behind McDavid and MacKinnon. 31st in his rookie season.) (Tavares was 2.02 last year. His best year was 2.38 in 2013/14)

5v5 Primary Pts/60 2.58 (1st in the NHL by a pretty healthy margin. 7th in his rookie season) (Tavares was 1.61 last year. His best year was 2.09 in 2015/16)

The last time a player had a 5v5 G/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Nash in 2014/15. Stamkos did in 2011/12. Ovechkin has not.

The last time a player had a 5v5 Primary Pts/60 higher than Matthews in 2017/18 was Perry in 2013/14. Crosby exceeded it (often by a wide margin) several years before that. Malkin did once. Patrick Kane has never come close.

Career 5v5 Primary Pts/60 Crosby has 2.25, Matthews 2.24, McDavid 2.22, Malkin 2.11. Barzal is at 2.04 Others are far behind (Kucherov: 1.83, Tavares 1.70, Drai: 1.53, Eichel: 1.39)

Career 5v5 G/60: Matthews 1.61; Laine 1.24; Boeser 1.22, Stamkos 1.19; Ovechkin 1.19; Nash 1.16 (Tavares 0.93) (The gap between number 2 and number 6 is very close. The gap between Matthews and the 2nd place player is bonkers)

What Matthews has done is pretty special. He hasn't had the luxury of getting to load up on points by playing 75% of the PP time on a top heavy unit. Kucherov, Drai, Eichel, Tavares etc. Despite all of them being older, none of them have been able to do what Matthews has been able to do.

 

[Armourboy]

The question was anything but simple.

Sure it was, he didn't ask who the 16 players ahead of him were, he asked how he got to 17. The simple answer is, 16 players are ahead of him. If you want names, ask for the names.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sure it was, he didn't ask who the 16 players ahead of him were, he asked how he got to 17. The simple answer is, 16 players are ahead of him. If you want names, ask for the names.

The adults here know that 17 comes after 16, if you think that's what was being asked then you should focus on your studies before school starts in the fall.

 

[CBJx614]

Jesus how the f*** is this shit show still running.