Value of: Mike Hoffman to the NYR

[PoutineSp00nZ]

McDonagh + Andersson
for
Chabot + Pageau

Sens get better LD to immediately complement Karl-meister.
If they turn it around --- and this improves their odds of doing that ---- great. If not, they have option to not only flip McD OR Karlsson, both to bundle the pair. McD is more expensive than elc Chabot, but is discounted for balance of his deal, and is cheap for what a 1LD would go for.

Andersson we don't know his upside vs Pageau, but as elc he is cheaper going forward.

Rangers get Pageau decent $ decent term for now, but more importantly, get elc rookie replacement for McD.

Very rare situation where various aspects [C for C, LD for LD, ele for elc, etc.] seem to balance out, so if both sides going for fair value, no need to add.

These are the guys to target, not Hoffman who Sens prefer to hold on to, I expect, but in any event would be too expensive.

Chabot is pretty much untouchable.

If the Sens make moves its to retool its vet forward group or blueline. Not trade out their most valuable young player.

The Sens aren't throwing in the towel until when/if Karlsson decides to move on. For better or for worse.

 

[Savant]

A swap for Kreider seems fair. Maybe play around picks to even it out.

I don’t think swapping Kreider for Hoffman makes sense. It’s an unecessary move.

 

[bernmeister]

This is all biased nonsense to the 7th level squared X 787,612,903.

It is not bias
I have demonstrated objective reasons for the position I took.
You are entitled to your erroneous posture backing an increasingly disproven win now philosophy.

Swapping kreider for Malkin instantly makes NYR a better team than they were before said trade, and there's no denying that

That is not a point of contention.
The short term of a declining, banged up Malkin at risk of injury, is NOT worth productive, still improving, healthier cheaper Kreider over longer term.
Build move superior to instant gratification.

Granted, Malkin was so top of the world elite 5 yrs ago, that what he is today relative to then is still all that and a bag of chips. But that again is not the point.

Kreider is good for another 6-7 years, possibly more. That's based on age, and unless NYR put him in crease too many times he is not more of target as to wear and tear.

Malkin already so banged up he had to miss games last couple of years. 2-3 years likely projected, beyond that we risk Chris Drury territory of fast and ugly breakdown.

NY has better chance to win w/Kreider as a solid core member for 7 years and add better pieces
than instead
2-3 years of improved talent but also improved risk of injury = you get nothing while he is out

-------------------

thread is about Hoffman
my point remains
would love to add Hoffman to Kreider, not at cost of him

do not see Sens taking currency other than that we would want to keep

 

[bernmeister]

i want to rip my eyes out
terrible for NYR

Why?
I suspect you are undervaluing what Chabot commands at the moment. That's like Skjei value for us.

Chabot is pretty much untouchable.

If the Sens make moves its to retool its vet forward group or blueline. Not trade out their most valuable young player.

The Sens aren't throwing in the towel until when/if Karlsson decides to move on. For better or for worse.

If you don't upgrade the team Karlsson is very much more likely to seek exit at end of contract, if not demand so before.

But ya wanna be careful and not go so all in now yer effed. This deal does avoid that.
McD is ideal partner for Karlsson now.
Like I pointed out, possible synergy if you do sell later, you sell both as a package.
McD is more $ than Chabot, but is cheap for 1LD.

Andersson elc replacing reasonably priced Pageau is big help to Sens on cost

Unless Chabot projects to be THAT good, unless his reasonably projected upside is Bobby Orr lite, Sens should do this deal

 

[Lays]

Why?
I suspect you are undervaluing what Chabot commands at the moment. That's like Skjei value for us.




If you don't upgrade the team Karlsson is very much more likely to seek exit at end of contract, if not demand so before.

But ya wanna be careful and not go so all in now yer effed. This deal does avoid that.
McD is ideal partner for Karlsson now.
Like I pointed out, possible synergy if you do sell later, you sell both as a package.
McD is more $ than Chabot, but is cheap for 1LD.

Andersson elc replacing reasonably priced Pageau is big help to Sens on cost

Unless Chabot projects to be THAT good, unless his reasonably projected upside is Bobby Orr lite, Sens should do this deal

I doubt Chabot gets up to McD's level. McD is still young.
Andersson for Pageau? Lol

 

[bernmeister]

I doubt Chabot gets up to McD's level. McD is still young.
Andersson for Pageau? Lol

Thanks for courtesy of reply.
If Chabot is parallel of Skjei, even if a little less than that and I am not saying that is the case, but just even going THERE; and if he is full 3 years elc; then you do this.

You do it to facilitate long term build of our blue line.

 

[Lays]

Thanks for courtesy of reply.
If Chabot is parallel of Skjei, even if a little less than that and I am not saying that is the case, but just even going THERE; and if he is full 3 years elc; then you do this.

You do it to facilitate long term build of our blue line.

Chabot for McD isn't terrible, it's like a Zib/Brass swap again sort of. I just don't see Chabot as a 1D. Straight up I would consider it a bit and I do think it's somewhat fair-ish but Andersson for Pageau is something that will never/should never happen.

 

[McSuper]

It is not bias
I have demonstrated objective reasons for the position I took.
You are entitled to your erroneous posture backing an increasingly disproven win now philosophy.



That is not a point of contention.
The short term of a declining, banged up Malkin at risk of injury, is NOT worth productive, still improving, healthier cheaper Kreider over longer term.
Build move superior to instant gratification.

Granted, Malkin was so top of the world elite 5 yrs ago, that what he is today relative to then is still all that and a bag of chips. But that again is not the point.

Kreider is good for another 6-7 years, possibly more. That's based on age, and unless NYR put him in crease too many times he is not more of target as to wear and tear.

Malkin already so banged up he had to miss games last couple of years. 2-3 years likely projected, beyond that we risk Chris Drury territory of fast and ugly breakdown.

NY has better chance to win w/Kreider as a solid core member for 7 years and add better pieces
than instead
2-3 years of improved talent but also improved risk of injury = you get nothing while he is out

-------------------

thread is about Hoffman
my point remains
would love to add Hoffman to Kreider, not at cost of him

do not see Sens taking currency other than that we would want to keep

I have to agree with you . Sometimes it not about value in a vacuum . It is about a long term out look of the team . As an Oiler fan there are many threads offering better players for Puljujarvi ( Simmonds , Philly and Patches Montreal ) but base on age , contract and where the team is at I wouldn't do it .

 

[bernmeister]

I have to agree with you . Sometimes it not about value in a vacuum . It is about a long term out look of the team . As an Oiler fan there are many threads offering better players for Puljujarvi ( Simmonds , Philly and Patches Montreal ) but base on age , contract and where the team is at I wouldn't do it .

Thanks for the vote of concurrence.

 

[bernmeister]

Chabot for McD isn't terrible, it's like a Zib/Brass swap again sort of. I just don't see Chabot as a 1D. Straight up I would consider it a bit and I do think it's somewhat fair-ish but Andersson for Pageau is something that will never/should never happen.

I appreciate the amplification and reconsideration.
Sens likely do not do Chabot straight up only b'c they are not the Canes and do not have big time youth depth at backline. McD is better now, Chabot has undetermined but high upside going forward. The key is his 3 years elc vs McD's age. That is what you are buying, and you can't get it 1:1.
That is why ele Andersson for Pageau is necessary.
Would have preferred Andersson + for Hoffman, but, shoe on the other foot, .... no.

So what I said before as a prop.

 

[McSuper]

Thanks for the vote of concurrence.

No need to thank me . People/fans bashing you with out reading what you said . No where did you say Malkin wasn't the better player . It was a simply statement to understand . With injuries concerns and his contract you wouldn't make the trade . I find most fans only see it one way . Player vs player . But when you consider Kreider at 4.6 VS Malkin at 9.5 . Cap space has value , Age and injuries lowers a players value it becomes a little more reasonable

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

The short term of a declining, banged up Malkin at risk of injury, is NOT worth productive, still improving, healthier cheaper Kreider over longer term.

You really need to stop with this false narrative that Kreider is still improving. He turns 27 in April. He is what he is.

 

[WhoTagz]

value sounds good but NYR has enough wingers and is super thin on D as it is

They are not thin on d, Prospect wise they are set, but forward wise not so much so to get a guy like hoffman a shoot first guy is worth it

 

[WhoTagz]

Ryan McDonagh would be nice....

McDonagh and gropp and a 3rd for Hoffman and Clasesson

 

[Kupo]

It is not bias

It 100% is. You have proven it over and over on numerous instances, for years. It’s kind of sad, actually.

 

[HawkeyTalkMan]

No need to thank me . People/fans bashing you with out reading what you said . No where did you say Malkin wasn't the better player . It was a simply statement to understand . With injuries concerns and his contract you wouldn't make the trade . I find most fans only see it one way . Player vs player . But when you consider Kreider at 4.6 VS Malkin at 9.5 . Cap space has value , Age and injuries lowers a players value it becomes a little more reasonable

and we also are ignoring that Malkin plays a critical position to drive stanley cup success whereas Kreider plays the least impactful position.

its not just about cap hit. losing Kreider and adding malkin is far more valuable near and long term for NYR because A) they need to maximize lundqvists window B) malkin allows zibenejad to 2C, Hayes to 3C, Miller back to wing where he is better, etc C) Improves NYR power play

NYRs lineup instantly becomes more balanced, deadly, and insanely strong down the middle

you're right, it wasnt considered in a vacuum but you didnt look at all the above either.

not to mention like someone else said, lets stop pretending Kreider, nearing 27, still has an steep upward career arc

he is on pace for 27 goals and 46 points this year, he is leveling out

Malkin is still a PPG player and well worth his cap hit at least for the next few years, and even if he does fall off in 2 years, lundqvist will be a fossil in net by that point and the window will be slammed shut

 

[haveandare]

I would easily trade Kreider if he returned Hoffman.

Honestly, why?

He's two years older and scores marginally more. Don't watch he Sens enough to know, but does he has the net front presence Kreider does?

 

[solidprospect]

Honestly, why?

He's two years older and scores marginally more. Don't watch he Sens enough to know, but does he has the net front presence Kreider does?

No not really,He stays as far away from the other teams net as possible. Most of his goals are from hard shots.

 

[haveandare]

No not really,He stays as far away from the other teams net as possible. Most of his goals are from hard shots.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to swap Kreider for him then. He scores a little more, but he's older and Kreider is fantastic in front of the net, which often doesn't show up in his stat line.

 

[McSuper]

and we also are ignoring that Malkin plays a critical position to drive stanley cup success whereas Kreider plays the least impactful position.

its not just about cap hit. losing Kreider and adding malkin is far more valuable near and long term for NYR because A) they need to maximize lundqvists window B) malkin allows zibenejad to 2C, Hayes to 3C, Miller back to wing where he is better, etc C) Improves NYR power play

NYRs lineup instantly becomes more balanced, deadly, and insanely strong down the middle

you're right, it wasnt considered in a vacuum but you didnt look at all the above either.

not to mention like someone else said, lets stop pretending Kreider, nearing 27, still has an steep upward career arc

he is on pace for 27 goals and 46 points this year, he is leveling out

Malkin is still a PPG player and well worth his cap hit at least for the next few years, and even if he does fall off in 2 years, lundqvist will be a fossil in net by that point and the window will be slammed shut

And here lies the problem . You are not considering the long terms health of the team

 

[bernmeister]

You really need to stop with this false narrative that Kreider is still improving. He turns 27 in April. He is what he is.

It is not false narrative, you just like to take shots regardless of validity.
Stepan is the poster child for somebody who hit a plateau, and would definitely not increase, only decrease, in performance.

Kreider is mid 20s goals.
If he adds just a couple each yr over balance of his deal, he is in the mid 30s.
And that is just one aspect.
Kreider has been unselfish and helps make Zib the monster he now is.

Is he going to be MULTIPLES better by end of career?
Jump from 25 to 50+? No
But he will continue to improve.
Barring injury, what I said stands.

 

[bernmeister]

and we also are ignoring that Malkin plays a critical position to drive stanley cup success whereas Kreider plays the least impactful position.

its not just about cap hit. losing Kreider and adding malkin is far more valuable near and long term for NYR because A) they need to maximize lundqvists window B) malkin allows zibenejad to 2C, Hayes to 3C, Miller back to wing where he is better, etc C) Improves NYR power play

NYRs lineup instantly becomes more balanced, deadly, and insanely strong down the middle

you're right, it wasnt considered in a vacuum but you didnt look at all the above either.

not to mention like someone else said, lets stop pretending Kreider, nearing 27, still has an steep upward career arc

he is on pace for 27 goals and 46 points this year, he is leveling out

Malkin is still a PPG player and well worth his cap hit at least for the next few years, and even if he does fall off in 2 years, lundqvist will be a fossil in net by that point and the window will be slammed shut

You are uninformed; we have a top Russian guy who looks like a world class netminder. He will be here we think year after next. There is ZERO concern about net, and we have another 1-2 guys who are solid prospects in net. Goal is 111% not a concern.

Kreider has some upside still.
Not to be X times better, but a bit every year, and he is a mid 30s scorer by end of his deal.
He is playing very well and is a big contributor to Zib's success

as to the rest of it:

A) they need to maximize lundqvists window
not really, and they absolutely do not want to do any more of the incredibly stupid win now **** that cost us repeatedly in recent years.

B) malkin allows zibenejad to 2C, Hayes to 3C, Miller back to wing where he is better, etc
The issue is not if adding Malkin is helpful now, the issue is whether or not that plus in the short term outweighs the long term cost, and it does not.
Kreider should play 1LW, Zib !RW
you have options for 1C, but atm Miller is a good fit there.

Miller is NOT better at C; he is equally comfortable at either, He is a natural C, always played pivot, drafted as a C.

Hayes is improved, with the right Ws he can be a 2C

Miller
Hayes
Nieves
Desharnais stopgap
with Andersson + Chytil here next year


C) Improves NYR power play
Malkin improves any line he is on, not just the power play, but is not worth the cost. period.

 

[bernmeister]

It 100% is. You have proven it over and over on numerous instances, for years. It’s kind of sad, actually.

What is truly sad is how you like to misrepresent what I say, and on occasion take so little care to use key words properly.

Bias in this case would have to be an irrational prejudice that is not supported by the facts. That is not the case.

Like everybody else, Kreider could theoretically be had for massive overpayment. No one goes there, because it is too expensive and self defeating to do so.

Why not settle for fair value?
Because unless there are reasons to justify it, such as a complementary swap of a lefty for a righty, or vice versa, you do not trade coke for pepsi. You make a deal if there is enough profit in it for you.

Of course 'enough profit' does not typically require 'massive overpay'. However, you have to consider what it will take to replace what you are giving up, not just what you are receiving.

There is the rub.
Other guys are fast, some about as fast as Kreider
Some are big, bigger than CK.
Let's say a few are even stronger then Chris.

And there are a couple that are ballpark physically the same and they deserve top recognition cause they have a special gift of hand-eye coordination; like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron in baseball, that is what set them apart; in NHL, McDavid is the obvious example.

But such an exception aside, NO ONE is the deadly combo that is Kreider, doing ALL of the speed, AND the size, AND the power.

We saw how coach AV, notorious for insisting things be done his way, had to finally bend, buckle and break and let Kreider be Kreider in the last playoff game vs Sens. CK utterly dominated.

That level can't be pressed every minute of every game, and even if it is, there are countermeasures defenses can be employed. But it is a statement not to be dismissed, which your assessment ignores.

It is not bias to recognize that he is worth more to keep than deal.

 

[Kupo]

It is not bias to recognize that he is worth more to keep than deal.

You have he audacity to wrongfully group Kreiders value up there with the real Elites of the league, yet you claim to be unbiased?

Look yourself in the mirror. Look at your post history. You’ve ultimately become flat out obsessed with a good player who you still feel has not only the potential to be great - but furthermore than that.

“The next Dave Keon”

You demand people to have an open mind, but the second someone disagrees with you about Kreider, you whip out your Magna Carta sized responses, filled with nonsense that highlights your Opinions, rather than Facts.

At the end of the day, Bern, you would prefer Kreider over Malkin going forward, which is truly the most asinine and biased thing I have ever read, aside for your ass-backward proposals.

You’re “that guy”.

 

[bernmeister]

You have he audacity to wrongfully group Kreiders value up there with the real Elites of the league, yet you claim to be unbiased?

Look yourself in the mirror. Look at your post history. You’ve ultimately become flat out obsessed with a good player who you still feel has not only the potential to be great - but furthermore than that.

“The next Dave Keon”

You demand people to have an open mind, but the second someone disagrees with you about Kreider, you whip out your Magna Carta sized responses, filled with nonsense that highlights your Opinions, rather than Facts.

At the end of the day, Bern, you would prefer Kreider over Malkin going forward, which is truly the most asinine and biased thing I have ever read, aside for your ass-backward proposals.

You’re “that guy”.

you said:
"You have he audacity to wrongfully group Kreiders value up there with the real Elites of the league, yet you claim to be unbiased?"

Audacity is another subject for another day.
You continue to use words as you see fit in a misguided effort to make a point which remains erroneous.

It is Kreider's physical talents which are undeniably elite, not so easy to replace, and a factor in his potential which helps drive value with current performance, along with non-performance items such as health, cap hit, etc.

Kreider is very reasonably priced -- not a bargain nor overpriced -- and he is close to 30 goals/season w/decent chance he will slightly go over that before deal's end.

That is worth more than a guy double that $, not doubling the output, with questionable health and high enough risk going forward, even if this guy was once a top elite.

As to “The next Dave Keon”
I stand by that claim, which, you will kindly bend, buckle, and break in your arrogance and stop misrepresenting people, when I said that, but said that as to his top ceiling.

We did not know everything about CK and how he would fill out. Fortunately he get bigger but not slower as well. His shot is still a work in progress, but adequate.

Based on actually elite speed, he could have Keon upside potential if he could also pass. Kreider came up as a C. It was decided to use him at W, so the point is moot.

However, it was not wrong to underscore how his elite speed would make him a force in this league. Just as was the case with Keon.

Thank God the win now crowd, of which you seem to be a part, who don't know how to BUILD, which is necessary to get team depth, are no longer in Slat's head.

Consider yourself demoted.
The inmates no longer run the asylum.