Speculation: Mike Babcock fired by the Leafs, should we take him back?

[Ezekial]

Most troubling to me is that Holland completely had Babcock's back on all of this. He was desperate to sign Babcock for 4 more years. Again, I think that's indicative of prevalent it is in hockey culture.

Yea, that's the part that looks really bad on Holland to me. His leadership group was over him and he wouldn't budge, I get standing by him in 11-12, but wanting to continue on with him with a group that clearly didn't want him at the helm. We knew that at the time though, we felt the same way as the players and were glad Babs moved on. That will continue to be a huge red flag for Holland to me. I did like what he did after that in the rebuild once we missed the playoffs, but that period of Holland's tenure will always be rock bottom to me.

 

[wingsnut19]

He deserved to get called out for his lazy play. Not have a nervous breakdown. You guys are way too sensitive.

Do you also think that Chelios is "too sensitive"? He played 2.5 decades in the NHL. You don't think a guy like him is able to distinguish between calling out a player for their lazy play and what he's describing as verbal abuse?

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

I still don't understand how he was medically allowed to come back those couple last times at the end of his career. He said openly in interviews that he was still having symptoms. And that he was on a rehab program of his own design.

It's unbelievable that was allowed to happen.

Hockey has a culture of idolizing warriors who play through injury. The fans love it and it benefits the owners, who make money out of it. Seeing a guy like Yzerman fight through pain is awe-inspiring. But, it's different when it's your brain.

Like I said, until the laws are changed none of the big leagues are going to do what's really necessary to protect their players. You can't really take the risk of concussion out of sports like hockey and football. When the only solution is removing star players from games and, possibly, careers, that cuts into bottom lines. Especially guys like Franzen, who are ticket sellers.

It also admits fault and opens the leagues up to lawsuits.

What's going to end up happening is top athletes are going to stop going into those sports.

 

[TheClap]

Franzen deserved it. He was absolutely atrocious that series. He refused to even bother going after the puck if it meant he had to try even a little bit. It was embarrassing to watch.

Even after knowing what we know now about his traumatic brain injuries and the symptoms he's still enduring, this is what you're going with?
Dude was a warrior simply trying to still play at that stage of his career. As others have aptly pointed out, he should have never medically been cleared to still be playing.
Cold, man. Just cold.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yea, that's the part that looks really bad on Holland to me. His leadership group was over him and he wouldn't budge, I get standing by him in 11-12, but wanting to continue on with him with a group that clearly didn't want him at the helm. We knew that at the time though, we felt the same way as the players and were glad Babs moved on. That will continue to be a huge red flag for Holland to me. I did like what he did after that in the rebuild once we missed the playoffs, but that period of Holland's tenure will always be rock bottom to me.

In the thread on the main boards they said Chelios stated that no one knew of Franzen's mental state before that incident. To me that puts this more in the category of old school hard ass mentality that doesn't really work anymore versus deliberately singling out a guy with a known mental issue. Still an asshole, but slightly less insanely malicious?

On the Holland point, it also dawned on me that Yzerman hired him to coach the Olympics and Shanahan was the one who hired him in Toronto. And also why I'd love to hear from people other than guys like Chelios and Commodore who've long since had an axe to grind. It was interesting hearing Colaicovo speak. He called him out for some things but also referred to him as a good coach. It seemed like a more credible version of what went down.

It's why I think Babcock is an asshole coach but not the extreme outlier in his behavior as is currently being portrayed. I say that not to excuse Babcock but to make the point that it's bigger than just him and needs to change.

All in all to me it seems like Babcock was trying to be Scotty Bowman in a generation where that kind of thing doesn't really work anymore. Times have change, and it's for the better.

 

[MBH]

These guys Yzerman and Shanahan HATED Babcock as players.
But they became executives and wanted to win... so no surprise, Yzerman (Canada) and Shanahan (Toronto) chose Babcock.
They saw what happened with Detroit.

But here's the other thing.
Babcock's behavior got worse and worse and worse in Detroit as his ego got fed.

 

[Winger98]

Chelios went on Spittin’ Chiclets and told a few stories about Babcock during his time in Detroit. The episode came out today. He said the worst incident he can remember is Babcock berating Franzen during the 2012 series against Nashville. He said Franzen had a nervous breakdown on the bench and then in the lockerroom afterwards. Pretty terrible. He also said a few guys went to Holland after this happened and Holland has Babcock’s back. Apparently Holland told the team they were welcome to ask for trades if they didn’t want to play for Babcock anymore.

so,we now know how Babcock responded to having his coaching jock strap handed to him by Trotz in that series. Wonder who he targeted when Quenville outcoached him again the following year.

 

[Red Stanley]

so,we now know how Babcock responded to having his coaching jock strap handed to him by Trotz in that series. Wonder who he targeted when Quenville outcoached him again the following year.

How dare you, sir!

 

[Run the Jewels]

Hockey has a culture of idolizing warriors who play through injury. The fans love it and it benefits the owners, who make money out of it. Seeing a guy like Yzerman fight through pain is awe-inspiring. But, it's different when it's your brain.

Like I said, until the laws are changed none of the big leagues are going to do what's really necessary to protect their players. You can't really take the risk of concussion out of sports like hockey and football. When the only solution is removing star players from games and, possibly, careers, that cuts into bottom lines. Especially guys like Franzen, who are ticket sellers.

It also admits fault and opens the leagues up to lawsuits.

What's going to end up happening is top athletes are going to stop going into those sports.

What's happening in the NFL is some guys are retiring early like Andrew Luck. They've made millions and don't need to work again for the rest of their lives. Why continue down a path that has high odds of resulting in an awful quality of life until you die prematurely when you can retire in your late 20s or early 30s and still live a reasonably healthy life into old age?

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

But here's the other thing.
Babcock's behavior got worse and worse and worse in Detroit as his ego got fed.

I have always felt like the pinnacle of Babcock's career was the 08 cup.

He actually reminds me a lot of Mike Keenan. A hardass coach with a decent career who ended up hardassing himself straight out of the NHL.

 

[2xJack]

In the thread on the main boards they said Chelios stated that no one knew of Franzen's mental state before that incident. To me that puts this more in the category of old school hard ass mentality that doesn't really work anymore versus deliberately singling out a guy with a known mental issue. Still an *******, but slightly less insanely malicious?

On the Holland point, it also dawned on me that Yzerman hired him to coach the Olympics and Shanahan was the one who hired him in Toronto. And also why I'd love to hear from people other than guys like Chelios and Commodore who've long since had an axe to grind. It was interesting hearing Colaicovo speak. He called him out for some things but also referred to him as a good coach. It seemed like a more credible version of what went down.

It's why I think Babcock is an ******* coach but not the extreme outlier in his behavior as is currently being portrayed. I say that not to excuse Babcock but to make the point that it's bigger than just him and needs to change.

All in all to me it seems like Babcock was trying to be Scotty Bowman in a generation where that kind of thing doesn't really work anymore. Times have change, and it's for the better.

Yzerman played a single season under Babcock. How much did he really know about Babcock crossing the line? What we do know is that Yzerman almost retired during the one season he played under Babcock, because he was hardly seeing the ice and didn't want to go out that way. It wasn't until Lang was injured on a western road trip and Yzerman was pressed into a large role, where he then went on a multiple game point streak, that turned his season around. The final straw for Yzerman, though, was the playoffs. Against Edmonton at the end of the game when we desperately needed a goal to stave off elimiation, Yzerman found himself on the bench, spectating. He skated off the ice after the game and knew that was it.

Now, obviously Yzerman was just hanging on and in a lot of physical pain, but like so many other respected veterans under Babcock he found himself in the dog house for no apparent reason, and with no way out. Maybe in hindsight Yzerman views it as a sort of favor, a gentle nudging out the door and making way for the new generation? Datsyuk and Zetterberg were ready to take leadership roles. Whatever the case, it doesn't sound like Stevie holds a grudge against Babcock over his role that season.

However, would Yzerman have had a different view if he saw and heard some of the other things that came out? Would Yzerman have stood up for Franzen? Would he have joined, or even led the veterans in talking to Holland about Babcock? I'm thinking yes. As good a leader as Yzerman was and is, I doubt very much he would have let that kind of behavior by a coach slide.

I'm seriously hoping that Babcock is done as a coach after all these revelations. He doesn't belong anywhere near a locker room.

 

[Ricelund]

 

[odin1981]

He deserved to get called out for his lazy play. Not have a nervous breakdown. You guys are way too sensitive.

Are you read up on what happens when you call out someone publicly with anxiety disorder?

There really is no excuse for it especially when the management and coaching is aware of said problem.

And I say this as someone who has bipolar disorder and probably PTSD but that won't ever be diagnosed because than the VA would have to pay me more disability than what they already do. So I am well versed in the depression and anxiety aspects of the problem I have.

Your negligent and most likely unaware aspect of what he suffers just comes across as completely ignorant and cruel. Don't get me wrong I am most definitely no saint in being judgmental in regards to other's. But your view is very shortsighted.

Edit: if they were unaware okay than. But after it came out what he suffered from he deserved an actual and sincere apology from that asshole.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yzerman played a single season under Babcock. How much did he really know about Babcock crossing the line? What we do know is that Yzerman almost retired during the one season he played under Babcock, because he was hardly seeing the ice and didn't want to go out that way. It wasn't until Lang was injured on a western road trip and Yzerman was pressed into a large role, where he then went on a multiple game point streak, that turned his season around. The final straw for Yzerman, though, was the playoffs. Against Edmonton at the end of the game when we desperately needed a goal to stave off elimiation, Yzerman found himself on the bench, spectating. He skated off the ice after the game and knew that was it.

Now, obviously Yzerman was just hanging on and in a lot of physical pain, but like so many other respected veterans under Babcock he found himself in the dog house for no apparent reason, and with no way out. Maybe in hindsight Yzerman views it as a sort of favor, a gentle nudging out the door and making way for the new generation? Datsyuk and Zetterberg were ready to take leadership roles. Whatever the case, it doesn't sound like Stevie holds a grudge against Babcock over his role that season.

However, would Yzerman have had a different view if he saw and heard some of the other things that came out? Would Yzerman have stood up for Franzen? Would he have joined, or even led the veterans in talking to Holland about Babcock? I'm thinking yes. As good a leader as Yzerman was and is, I doubt very much he would have let that kind of behavior by a coach slide.

I'm seriously hoping that Babcock is done as a coach after all these revelations. He doesn't belong anywhere near a locker room.

After he retired Yzerman worked in the Red Wings front office until May of 2010. He knew many guys on that team so I have to assume he knew what was going on in that locker room with Babcock.

That's why I'm not defending what Babcock did, but also thinking it wasn't as unusual or over the line as people are making it sounds right now.

 

[MBH]

Yzerman played a single season under Babcock. How much did he really know about Babcock crossing the line? What we do know is that Yzerman almost retired during the one season he played under Babcock, because he was hardly seeing the ice and didn't want to go out that way. It wasn't until Lang was injured on a western road trip and Yzerman was pressed into a large role, where he then went on a multiple game point streak, that turned his season around. The final straw for Yzerman, though, was the playoffs. Against Edmonton at the end of the game when we desperately needed a goal to stave off elimiation, Yzerman found himself on the bench, spectating. He skated off the ice after the game and knew that was it.

Now, obviously Yzerman was just hanging on and in a lot of physical pain, but like so many other respected veterans under Babcock he found himself in the dog house for no apparent reason, and with no way out. Maybe in hindsight Yzerman views it as a sort of favor, a gentle nudging out the door and making way for the new generation? Datsyuk and Zetterberg were ready to take leadership roles. Whatever the case, it doesn't sound like Stevie holds a grudge against Babcock over his role that season.

However, would Yzerman have had a different view if he saw and heard some of the other things that came out? Would Yzerman have stood up for Franzen? Would he have joined, or even led the veterans in talking to Holland about Babcock? I'm thinking yes. As good a leader as Yzerman was and is, I doubt very much he would have let that kind of behavior by a coach slide.

I'm seriously hoping that Babcock is done as a coach after all these revelations. He doesn't belong anywhere near a locker room.

Yzerman hated Babcock so much he nearly retired mid-season.
Babcock came in and had to prove he was the alpha dog.

 

[MBH]

After he retired Yzerman worked in the Red Wings front office until May of 2010. He knew many guys on that team so I have to assume he knew what was going on in that locker room with Babcock.

That's why I'm not defending what Babcock did, but also thinking it wasn't as unusual or over the line as people are making it sounds right now.

Look at the way the general hockey fan's attitudes have changed over 10-20 years.

Wings fans, for example, cheered on McCarty has he punched the turtling Lemieux.
Wonder how that same thing would be received today.

 

[MBH]

Are you read up on what happens when you call out someone publicly with anxiety disorder?

There really is no excuse for it especially when the management and coaching is aware of said problem.

And I say this as someone who has bipolar disorder and probably PTSD but that won't ever be diagnosed because than the VA would have to pay me more disability than what they already do. So I am well versed in the depression and anxiety aspects of the problem I have.

Your negligent and most likely unaware aspect of what he suffers just comes across as completely ignorant and cruel. Don't get me wrong I am most definitely no saint in being judgmental in regards to other's. But your view is very shortsighted.

Edit: if they were unaware okay than. But after it came out what he suffered from he deserved an actual and sincere apology from that *******.

Not saying I disgree with you man...
and this might sound trite - but thank you for your service.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

Look at the way the general hockey fan's attitudes have changed over 10-20 years.

Wings fans, for example, cheered on McCarty has he punched the turtling Lemieux.
Wonder how that same thing would be received today.

I would pay money to watch McCarty fight Lemieux. Today. Right now.

 

[odin1981]

Not saying I disgree with you man...
and this might sound trite - but thank you for your service.

Don't thank me it's meaningless. If you wish to give thanks to those that served bug the hell out of your local congressmen/woman and senator to give actual care instead of the crap they give us all.

Or give time or money or both to a service organization that actually tries to fix things for vets and improve their lives.

Ty though for your regards.

 

[MBH]

Don't thank me it's meaningless. If you wish to give thanks to those that served bug the hell out of your local congressmen/woman and senator to give actual care instead of the be they give us all.

Or give time or money or both to a service organization that actually tries to fix things for vets and improve their lives.

Ty though for your regards.

Will do.
And already do.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yzerman hated Babcock so much he nearly retired mid-season.
Babcock came in and had to prove he was the alpha dog.

See this is my problem with stories like Chelios's because then it starts snowballing and people start saying all sorts of unsubstantiated things. Someone on the main board was blaming Babcock for forcing Franzen back from a concussion prematurely, which is not what Chelios said at all.

At the time, Yzerman said he almost retired mid-season because he felt he simply couldn't compete at that level anymore. He couldn't do the things he used to be able to do and it was frustrating him. When he finally retired he said the only reason was because of his health. He just couldn't physically do it anymore.

People can speculate that playing for Babcock was a factor but I've never seen anything substantiating that.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Look at the way the general hockey fan's attitudes have changed over 10-20 years.

Wings fans, for example, cheered on McCarty has he punched the turtling Lemieux.
Wonder how that same thing would be received today.

That's a really good point. I wonder how it would be received today.

That's why I'm saying Babcock sounds like a total asshole coach but not an outlier. And he was rewarded for it by Holland, Yzerman, and Shanahan.

 

[MBH]

See this is my problem with stories like Chelios's because then it starts snowballing and people start saying all sorts of unsubstantiated things. Someone on the main board was blaming Babcock for forcing Franzen back from a concussion prematurely, which is not what Chelios said at all.

At the time, Yzerman said he almost retired mid-season because he felt he simply couldn't compete at that level anymore. He couldn't do the things he used to be able to do and it was frustrating him. When he finally retired he said the only reason was because of his health. He just couldn't physically do it anymore.

People can speculate that playing for Babcock was a factor but I've never seen anything substantiating that.

No, Babcock absolutely was a factor in Yzerman's unhappiness.
He was miserable. Babcock was f***ing with him and Lidstrom and Shanahan.
Shanahan flew the coup the second he could, Yzerman retired after the season.

Babcock was intent in proving to everyone he was king. And he did that by taking down the top dogs.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

No, Babcock absolutely was a factor in Yzerman's unhappiness.
He was miserable. Babcock was ****ing with him and Lidstrom and Shanahan.
Shanahan flew the coup the second he could, Yzerman retired after the season.

Then Yzerman picked Babcock to coach Canada not once but twice. And Shanny went on to hire him to coach the Leafs.

Yzerman played for Scotty f***ing Bowman. You think he couldn't deal with Babcock?

I never heard anything substantiated about Babcock being a factor in Yzerman's retirement, but feel free to provide a link.

 

[2xJack]

After he retired Yzerman worked in the Red Wings front office until May of 2010. He knew many guys on that team so I have to assume he knew what was going on in that locker room with Babcock.

That's why I'm not defending what Babcock did, but also thinking it wasn't as unusual or over the line as people are making it sounds right now.

Well, several or maybe all of the incidents coming out happened after 2010. That may be a factor. It seems that while Babcock was always a tough-guy coach at some point his antics may have jumped the shark. Also, I don't know how much Yzerman was still in tune with the day to day locker room happenings. What was his exact role in 2006-2010? Nill was the assistant GM that whole time, he didn't leave until 2013. Yzerman may have spent a lot of time out of town, doing scouting or something else. Finally, I'm not sure if there were any close friends of Yzerman's on the team when he retired. While I think he had a good working relationship with many in the locker room, I would not say that any of them were necessarily friends. In contrast, we know that Osgood, McCarty and Draper were very good friends, often seen together all over town. Hatcher and Chelios were good friends. The only players I know for a fact are good friends with Yzerman had all retired before he did.