Speculation: Mike Babcock fired by the Leafs, should we take him back?

[Red Stanley]

What has Trotz done with the Isles? If you're going to rag on Babcock not winning multiple Cups. In terms of final success at end of year, Trotz ain't done a damn thing with the Isles.

The 2007 series against Anaheim was a hard fought series between two supremely talented teams. There wasn't a coaching flub... it was Bryz and his defense core doing the damn thing in that series. In 2009? The Wings all but had the Cup wrapped up and if not for the league doing some weird stuff (waiving the suspension Malkin should have had) or Pittsburgh doing fluky stuff (Crosby out early in Game 7, but Maxime Talbot trips into 2 goals), the Wings had that series. They were up 3-2 heading to Pittsburgh and lost two 2-1 contests.

I mean, Damn it. This is the crap that pisses me off. Babcock being competent or incompetent had nothing to do with the results of those two series. One goal affairs (particularly of the 1-0 or 2-1 variety) in the playoffs are luck. They're not some master stroke of brilliance, they're one team had puck luck help them out the other didn't. If you want to discredit his final appearance based on Giguere having a fluky good run, you must give an allowance for a fluky 2009 loss. Seriously, how the hell are you supposed to react in a pair of 2-1 losses where the guys that scored (Jordan Staal, Tyler Kennedy, and Maxime Talbot) are the secondary type guys that you are forcing to be able to beat you by blanketing the stars. The Wings played a solid, competent series end in 2009, it just didn't go their way. Nine out of ten times, they win that game 7. I mean, the Wings didn't get outgameplanned in Games 6 and 7. They played their game plan of not letting Malkin and Crosby beat them. Malkin and Crosby in games 6 and 7 didn't beat the Wings. It was just enough secondary scoring from grinders.

Like you're technically correct in that he could/should have won more Cups with the talent he had... but he wasn't playing against a bunch of stiffs. Anaheim and Pittsburgh "deserved" or "should" have won those series too based on the talent they had.

What bothered me the most about his tenure with the Wings was his unwillingness to stand up for his players. For a coach who demands so much, he sure as hell didn't appear to have their backs at all in public. We got absolutely jobbed by terrible reffing over and over and over again and not a peep. "We need to try harder" was the only thing you heard come out of him. Q might be a whiner, but at least he whined on his players' behalf. And they got tons of calls go their way because of it.

 

[deca guard]

what people call smug and arrogant in this case i call an unwavering leader whose outlook is that a team needs one voice at the helm which turns 23 players into its machine / robots . thats how a hockey team is most effective in what is the ultimate team sport where the more tightly meshed a team is the more effective they are . babs isnt like he is in attempt to belittle people , its his style of leadership that hes sees as what is best for all involved including the players . yes he might not be a great tactician / strategist , but hes excellent at getting a team all on the same page which you may have noticed got the redwings all kinds of years in the playoffs with rosters of lesser talent . but here he had a team culture created by holland of commited players . in toronto he done run into a bunch of cry baby snow flakes whom quit playing for him

 

[Dotter]

Yes. The team has to bottom out over 2-3 years to get the talent the team needs.

Exactly. Yzerman is here to do a "proper rebuild". That's going to take time and lots and lots of ugly losses like last night.

 

[Red Stanley]

1) Well, not to split hairs here, but that depends on how far you remove the 'successful dicks' bank accounts from their corporate facilitation. If I'm judging corporations, by proxy, I'm still judging 'personhood'... at least according to the Supreme Court.

2) Wealth inequality is a large causal factor in violent crime, this is well established. When World Bank economists are permitted to publish this sort of data, you can bet that the problem is bigger than we can imagine. Perhaps this is 'prejudicial thought', but I have intellectual and emotional investment outside of the 1st world. I've broken bread with people in the 3rd world, I've watched as they've buried and mourned their dead (collateral) children, mothers, and fathers, and many other things that stick with you well after. I did all that as I waited to return to my housing development that has zero lethal drone strikes per year, to my fully stocked pantry and refrigerator, and everything else that makes the developed world wonderful. I can't, in good conscious, ignore how wealth inequality influences violence at all levels.

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/Resources/Crime&Inequality.pdf

3) Yes... yes it does. It falls under the AMA definition of compulsive hoarding, so it's a clinically recognized mental disability. Not only that, but market economics gets pretty s****y when large portions of its finite money supply are kept from circulation. This has a direct negative impact on a majority of the world population.

Can we please not go there? It seems like you are passionate about these issues and I'm sure others are passionate about them in the opposite direction. This has nothing to do with hockey, though.

 

[Borlag]

While this could be shrugged off as just another Finn touting for another Finn, I firmly believe that the team needs a new coach with a record of overachieving with weak rosters. In the past DRW has been known for unorthodox methods, bringing in Russisans when no one else did, smuggling players etc. Time to try something completely new and bring in Jukka Jalonen as the head coach. Year after year he's shown that he can do it in a short tournament, what do we have to lose to try him out for the remainder of the season. He'd most certainly have a lot more to prove than the other options that are even being discussed, and he already has a good system that is proven to work against superior talent even if it is on the bigger ice.

 

[lilidk]

Wait, let me get this straight. According to this poll, 45% of people not only want Blashill to finish out this season, but also want him to coach the team next year as well?

I'm pretty sure if we get brand new poll it will be %90 get him out of here now

 

[Reds4Life]

He wasn't referencing his time in Washington. He was saying "Trotz is so good on the Island". When Trotz on the Island has won a single playoff series. And frankly, if you want to get down on Babcock for "only" winning a single Cup with Detroit... Trotz had a team in the mid 2010s that was every damn bit as good as those Wings rosters.

So you want to compare Babcock's most successful tenure (Wings) against Trotz's short stint with the Isles? lol

And no, Trotz never had a team with players of the very best caliber such as Z, Dats or Lidstrom.
Preds were good, but not as good as the Wings, especially when it comes to top-level talent.

Babcock had one card to play. He was always bad at adjustments during games or playoff series. In my opinion, Wings would have won more Cups with a better coach - maybe someone who can actually react on the fly and doesn't treat his players like a PoS.

 

[lilidk]

Let's see if leaves become red wings 2.0 in 4-5 years

 

[Red Stanley]

Let's see if leaves become red wings 2.0 in 4-5 years

It will for sure be interesting to watch that saga unfold.

 

[Henkka]

While this could be shrugged off as just another Finn touting for another Finn, I firmly believe that the team needs a new coach with a record of overachieving with weak rosters. In the past DRW has been known for unorthodox methods, bringing in Russisans when no one else did, smuggling players etc. Time to try something completely new and bring in Jukka Jalonen as the head coach. Year after year he's shown that he can do it in a short tournament, what do we have to lose to try him out for the remainder of the season. He'd most certainly have a lot more to prove than the other options that are even being discussed, and he already has a good system that is proven to work against superior talent even if it is on the bigger ice.

I wonder how could it work with Garpenlöv/Grönborg + Jalonen/Pennanen duos.

Create a Sweden+Finland -hybrid.

Current Sweden National team Head Coach Johan Garpenlöv played with Yzerman, so at least is the person is familiar.

 

[TheClap]

What has Trotz done with the Isles? If you're going to rag on Babcock not winning multiple Cups. In terms of final success at end of year, Trotz ain't done a damn thing with the Isles.

Well, Barry Trotz has more playoff series wins with the isles than Babcock's entire Toronto tenure. And he did it in one season. And to add to that, Trotz did with an Islanders team that lost their big franchise player that offseason. Mike Babcock meanwhile inherited that player and still couldn't do better than Trotz's Isles.

 

[avssuc]

5) However, Cola's level of play and level of success in Detroit is very pertinent. Haven't you ever heard of sour grapes? Cola was absolutely worthless in Detroit. Wasn't healthy and got bought out. This was like the Abdelkader friend of a friend of a friend talking when he "complained about the Swedish Mafia" Is entirely possible that Cola is taking the Mike Commodore tack and just being ******** because Babcock didn't want to utilize a ****ty hockey player. And it could have been Cola, Modano, etc. the guys who were veterans but not necessary team leadership that wanted him gone. Do you have evidence that Henrik Zetterberg and Kronwall went to Holland to get Babcock gone? Abby? The guys with any stroke in the room? I'm not going to take Cola's word for it because he's got every reason to slag Babcock particularly given the free board to attack him right now.

6) Ignoring the past isn't just as bad, but it can get you to the same spot.

7) Um... hasn't that been, on a lesser scale, what has happened with the prevalence of tanking? We're going to waste your talents and your money-making capabilities because we think you suck too much to make a run. Why don't we just skip the regular season if 90% of the teams aren't going to have a shot at doing anything and decide to play awful rosters to get better picks. But a big part of it is the players themselves who accept the subpar treatment for a monetary reward. I mean, Mike Commodore played for Babcock in Anaheim. Then he decided to sign with Detroit knowing that he was still the coach. Cola knew of Babcock and would have had players on the Wings or former Wings letting him know on Babcock, but he chose to sign there for 5M total. Don't act for a second like you're concerned with the humanity involved. The world would prob be a better place if they could develop robots that could function at the same level of proficiency as professional athletes. So instead of Mike Modano getting his wrist cut open with a skate or Clint Malarchuk having his throat ripped, you have RW Bot #2351 get a scratch on his metal exoskeleton.

5) You may be correct. I just figured Filppula, Bertuzzi, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, Abdelkader, or Helm would have spoken out to say that what he said was untrue. If team leadership, as we rightfully assume, isn't guys on 1 year deals in their 1st year with the team, then I wonder why they'd permit some journeyman scrub to put agendas in their mouths for one of the biggest hockey storylines of the year. Seems odd that they'd let a false narrative fly like this.

6) Who said anything about ignoring the past? I'm saying that we should learn and not repeat the past mistakes... so I'm glad we agree here.

 

[14ari13]

I think Tampa should try Babcock .

 

[Ricelund]

Chelios went on Spittin’ Chiclets and told a few stories about Babcock during his time in Detroit. The episode came out today. He said the worst incident he can remember is Babcock berating Franzen during the 2012 series against Nashville. He said Franzen had a nervous breakdown on the bench and then in the lockerroom afterwards. Pretty terrible. He also said a few guys went to Holland after this happened and Holland has Babcock’s back. Apparently Holland told the team they were welcome to ask for trades if they didn’t want to play for Babcock anymore.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Franzen deserved it. He was absolutely atrocious that series. He refused to even bother going after the puck if it meant he had to try even a little bit. It was embarrassing to watch.

 

[Henkka]

Franzen deserved it. He was absolutely atrocious that series. He refused to even bother going after the puck if it meant he had to try even a little bit. It was embarrassing to watch.

Okay?

Player who has mental problems collapses mentally, and you say he deserves coaches blame about it?

Ignore list, here we come again.

 

[Ricelund]

Franzen deserved it. He was absolutely atrocious that series. He refused to even bother going after the puck if it meant he had to try even a little bit. It was embarrassing to watch.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

He deserved to get called out for his lazy play. Not have a nervous breakdown. You guys are way too sensitive.

 

[14ari13]

Chelios went on Spittin’ Chiclets and told a few stories about Babcock during his time in Detroit. The episode came out today. He said the worst incident he can remember is Babcock berating Franzen during the 2012 series against Nashville. He said Franzen had a nervous breakdown on the bench and then in the lockerroom afterwards. Pretty terrible. He also said a few guys went to Holland after this happened and Holland has Babcock’s back. Apparently Holland told the team they were welcome to ask for trades if they didn’t want to play for Babcock anymore.

Wow, that was interesting to read.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Chelios went on Spittin’ Chiclets and told a few stories about Babcock during his time in Detroit. The episode came out today. He said the worst incident he can remember is Babcock berating Franzen during the 2012 series against Nashville. He said Franzen had a nervous breakdown on the bench and then in the lockerroom afterwards. Pretty terrible. He also said a few guys went to Holland after this happened and Holland has Babcock’s back. Apparently Holland told the team they were welcome to ask for trades if they didn’t want to play for Babcock anymore.

Terrible.What this highlights is the need for the concussion protocol and a substance abuse/mental health protocol like MLS has. That takes the decision out of the coaches and general manager's hands, two guys who have an incentive to value winning over player health. I said at the time that Franzen should have been a compliance buyout but there were lots of cynical hot takes that he could just be LTIR'd. Some of those people are now expressing outrage that a coach made a decision that really shouldn't have been his to make. Still awful and clearly unacceptable.

 

[redwings8831]

Chelios went on Spittin’ Chiclets and told a few stories about Babcock during his time in Detroit. The episode came out today. He said the worst incident he can remember is Babcock berating Franzen during the 2012 series against Nashville. He said Franzen had a nervous breakdown on the bench and then in the lockerroom afterwards. Pretty terrible. He also said a few guys went to Holland after this happened and Holland has Babcock’s back. Apparently Holland told the team they were welcome to ask for trades if they didn’t want to play for Babcock anymore.

Here's the audio.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Franzen deserved it. He was absolutely atrocious that series. He refused to even bother going after the puck if it meant he had to try even a little bit. It was embarrassing to watch.

Yeah, verbally abusing a player with a known history of anxiety is totally going to get him to play better.

Babcock with the big brain on that one.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Terrible.What this highlights is the need for the concussion protocol and a substance abuse/mental health protocol like MLS has. That takes the decision out of the coaches and general manager's hands, two guys who have an incentive to value winning over player health. I said at the time that Franzen should have been a compliance buyout but there were lots of cynical hot takes that he could just be LTIR'd. Some of those people are now expressing outrage that a coach made a decision that really shouldn't have been his to make. Still awful and clearly unacceptable.

MLS is heavily influenced by European protocols and standards. North American leagues will never take stances that have the potential to take money out of the owners hands. It will take legislative action and lawmakers will never do anything to piss off a bunch of billionaire donor class assholes.

Franzen should have been forced into retirement back in 2011 or 2012. Letting a guy like him keep playing with scrambled brains is just as much malpractice as letting Fischer play would have been.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

A few thought on this, some I'm guessing will be unpopular:

First and foremost, I'm glad this stuff is coming out because the culture is changing regarding hazing, verbal and physical abuse from coaching, and it's a good thing. The NHL needs to catch up.

Honestly this story about Franzen likely could've happened on half the teams in the league. Getting screamed at by your coaches is not uncommon. I don't put this in the same tier as the mindf*** of having your rookie make a list and then telling the team. To be clear, I'm not saying this behavior is ok and should continue. It's symptomatic of a larger problem. I think it was Bieksa on HNIC this weekend talking about how players still have mistrust for the mental health support provided by teams because they're (understandably) afraid it will get back to management. Franzen struggled with anxiety and depression but when you're paid millions of dollars, I don't think coaches and GMs really give a shit. In Devellano's words, they're cattle.

I wish the messenger was someone other than Chelios. "Verbal assault" is a bit over the top. Not because what I think happened was ok, but it waters down the word for actual assault. And Chelios is the guy who threatened Bettman's family during the lockout and is still bitter about not getting more ice time as a 47 year old.

Most troubling to me is that Holland completely had Babcock's back on all of this. He was desperate to sign Babcock for 4 more years. Again, I think that's indicative of prevalent it is in hockey culture.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

MLS is heavily influenced by European protocols and standards. North American leagues will never take stances that have the potential to take money out of the owners hands. It will take legislative action and lawmakers will never do anything to piss off a bunch of billionaire donor class *******s.

Franzen should have been forced into retirement back in 2011 or 2012. Letting a guy like him keep playing with scrambled brains is just as much malpractice as letting Fischer play would have been.

I still don't understand how he was medically allowed to come back those couple last times at the end of his career. He said openly in interviews that he was still having symptoms. And that he was on a rehab program of his own design.

It's unbelievable that was allowed to happen.