Meeting Complete - Goodenow/bettman Joining Talks Tomorrow

[JOHNBOY]

This "Lock-Out" is not as worse as I first suspected.....................









































:lol :lol

 

[Slats432]

A very good point. The NHLPA was looking for this date so they can "sick" Goodenow on the NHL. I really don't know how this is going to end up. There isnt much more that anyone can say on the issue. I think the thread should be retired, since its more than 15 pages old, lol.

User CP>>>Edit Options>>>Thread Options>>>>50 posts per page.

 

[EdBelfour20]

I would hope Mr. Bettman will be making an annoucment of cancellation if their isn't a deal struck tomorrow..

 

[Scoogs]

User CP>>>Edit Options>>>Thread Options>>>>50 posts per page.

Yaaaaay :lol

 

[417]

A very good point. The NHLPA was looking for this date so they can "sick" Goodenow on the NHL. I really don't know how this is going to end up. There isnt much more that anyone can say on the issue. I think the thread should be retired, since its more than 15 pages old, lol.

Not to drag this thread on, just wanted to add this comment before I retire to my quarters...

Ted Saskin comments ( I like to break down what people say to the media)

"We have philisophical differences" = "We've hit a snag in the discussions"

"I won't characterize today's meetings" = "Progress has been made, I won't divulge to what extent, to protect the progress we've made and can potentially make in these negotiations"

 

[Scoogs]

I think that this is clearly, still posturing. This is going to remain like this until the very last minute. If there is still time, they will try and squeeze as much sugar as they can out of the owners... But when its 11:59, and do or die time, I believe the players will capitulate.

 

[I Hate You All*]

I would hope Mr. Bettman will be making an annoucment of cancellation if their isn't a deal struck tomorrow..

Me too.

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

This I dont understand. Is it a typo?
I think Bob has till tomorrow.

Not at all. Let's imagine Bob says, "Ooh, we finally see the light. We give! We give! Let's start negotiating. The first thing is to define revenues. Naturally we think the definition in the Levitt report is bunk. Let's agree on the auditer first. Then let's see how long it will take him to review the team books. Once his report is in, we'll have some numbers to negotiate around. Shall we again at the end of March to review the audit reports?"

It is no longer practical to negotiate the owner proposal. There are way too many acrimonious issues to be resolved that can be ignored if a revenues-salary linkage is ignored. They must be resolved before Bettman's deal can be signed. There isn't time.

If the players concede and start negotiating this there is no season. If the players don't concede there is no season because it does not look like the owners will conced either. It does not look like they will, so Goodenow will 1) Make Gary listen to their December 9th proposal again, and 2) end talks, or set a date to end talks.

It's over. Somehow or another most of the owner apologists on this board thought the players would concede as soon as they realized the owners were willing to lose the season. They won't. It's over.

Tom

 

[I Hate You All*]

Tom

 

[Cawz]

It's over. Somehow or another most of the owner apologists on this board thought the players would concede as soon as they realized the owners were willing to lose the season. They won't. It's over.

If theres money to be made, there will be a way to fit in a season, and expecially some sort of playoffs. Thats assuming they can come to some sort of agreement, which I dont think they can. I wish I could share in people's optimism.

 

[wazee]

Not at all. Let's imagine Bob says, "Ooh, we finally see the light. We give! We give! Let's start negotiating. The first thing is to define revenues. Naturally we think the definition in the Levitt report is bunk. Let's agree on the auditer first. Then let's see how long it will take him to review the team books. Once his report is in, we'll have some numbers to negotiate around. Shall we again at the end of March to review the audit reports?"

It is no longer practical to negotiate the owner proposal. There are way too many acrimonious issues to be resolved that can be ignored if a revenues-salary linkage is ignored. They must be resolved before Bettman's deal can be signed. There isn't time.

If the players concede and start negotiating this there is no season. If the players don't concede there is no season because it does not look like the owners will conced either. It does not look like they will, so Goodenow will 1) Make Gary listen to their December 9th proposal again, and 2) end talks, or set a date to end talks.

It's over. Somehow or another most of the owner apologists on this board thought the players would concede as soon as they realized the owners were willing to lose the season. They won't. It's over.

Tom

Actually, it is not over, until it is over...and we won't know it is over until Bettman announces the season is cancelled.

On your other points...How do you know that the NHL and NHLPA have not been working on defining revenue behind the scenes. If they have done so, they are in good shape to move forward on a 'linkage' based system. Then all they would have to do is agree on a percentage and agree on a auditor.

They could agree to play this season under the old CBA which would let them get going quicker, and would let everyone settle into the new system over the summer.

I don't have a strong feeling that it will get done...or that it won't. If it takes until this time next year to get a deal that allows a healthy league, I am ok with that. I be back yelling and cheering whenever they get their act together. It isn't like I can crack their heads together, lock them in a room, and refuse to let them out until they get a working CBA. So there is no use in letting them pull my strings. What is, is.

 

[Tom_Benjamin]

On your other points...How do you know that the NHL and NHLPA have not been working on defining revenue behind the scenes.

What Fantasy Island on you living on? They are defining revenue secretly? While holding rigidly to an impasse position publicly? If they are doing this, they come to an agreement long ago. The players would have conceded at least the possibility of playing under this system. They have not given one single hint that they would ever let the owners dictate a result.

They could agree to play this season under the old CBA which would let them get going quicker, and would let everyone settle into the new system over the summer.

Bettman promised that no play until every "I" is dotted and every "T" crossed. If they were willing to do this, they might as well play the rest of the season under the old CBA and then go back to fighting. That's still a possibility but I doubt it now.

I don't have a strong feeling that it will get done...or that it won't.

To dream the impossible dream...

If it takes until this time next year to get a deal that allows a healthy league, I am ok with that.

If we are in the same spot next year, we won't be talking about losing another season, we will be talking about losing the league. At some point, franchises will start to fail. My guesses are either Pittsburgh and Phoenix first. If the players don't give up now, what makes you think they will give up in a year?

What if the owners cave this time next year? Will you be okay with that?

Tom

 

[handtrick]

For what it is worth:
Just got off the phone with my dad, who is no hockey fan, but did negotiate labor relations agreements for General Motors for 20 years. I told him about the course of negotiations over the past month and asked him what he thought about about the "big boys" coming into the meeting tomorrow........He said that in all his years, the "big boys" never stepped back into the negotiations unless there is something very tangible to take credit and get the glory for. He expects it to be to finalize a deal or make a final push to a settlement. He felt that if they were truly at impasse, that they would be keeping their distance away not interjecting themselves into it. He also stressed not to believe ANY press releases at this point whatsoever.

Just something to think about from a guy who has been around the bush many times in regards to labor relations bargaining agreements.

As to me.....I have got my hopes up too many times before.....I am just numb to it all anymore.....just freaking shoot us and put us out of our misery......

 

[CarlRacki]

What Fantasy Island on you living on? They are defining revenue secretly? While holding rigidly to an impasse position publicly? If they are doing this, they come to an agreement long ago. The players would have conceded at least the possibility of playing under this system. They have not given one single hint that they would ever let the owners dictate a result.



Bettman promised that no play until every "I" is dotted and every "T" crossed. If they were willing to do this, they might as well play the rest of the season under the old CBA and then go back to fighting. That's still a possibility but I doubt it now.



To dream the impossible dream...



If we are in the same spot next year, we won't be talking about losing another season, we will be talking about losing the league. At some point, franchises will start to fail. My guesses are either Pittsburgh and Phoenix first. If the players don't give up now, what makes you think they will give up in a year?

What if the owners cave this time next year? Will you be okay with that?

Tom

Defining revenue need not be the Herculean task that you portray. Two major professional sports leagues have already done it in varying forms. The NHL could very easily work off one of those, tweaking it as necessary to meet their specific needs.

 

[jcab2000]

For what it is worth:
Just got off the phone with my dad, who is no hockey fan, but did negotiate labor relations agreements for General Motors for 20 years. I told him about the course of negotiations over the past month and asked him what he thought about about the "big boys" coming into the meeting tomorrow........He said that in all his years, the "big boys" never be stepped back into the negotiations unless there is something very tangible to take credit and get the glory for. He expects it to be to finalize a deal or make a final push to a settlement. He felt that if they were truly at impasse, that they would be keeping their distance away not interjecting themselves into it. He also stressed not to believe ANY press releases at this point whatsoever.

Just something to think about from a guy who has been around the bush many times in regards to labor relations bargaining agreements.

As to me.....I have got my hopes up too many times before.....I am just numb to it all anymore.....just freaking shoot us and put us out of our misery......

That's exactly my point for the last week. These labor negotiations are nothing new or special, it always looks hopeless right before it gets done.

 

[Scoogs]

Its a very encouraging post, thanks handtrick.

 

[wazee]

What Fantasy Island on you living on? They are defining revenue secretly? While holding rigidly to an impasse position publicly? If they are doing this, they come to an agreement long ago. The players would have conceded at least the possibility of playing under this system. They have not given one single hint that they would ever let the owners dictate a result.



Bettman promised that no play until every "I" is dotted and every "T" crossed. If they were willing to do this, they might as well play the rest of the season under the old CBA and then go back to fighting. That's still a possibility but I doubt it now.



To dream the impossible dream...



If we are in the same spot next year, we won't be talking about losing another season, we will be talking about losing the league. At some point, franchises will start to fail. My guesses are either Pittsburgh and Phoenix first. If the players don't give up now, what makes you think they will give up in a year?

What if the owners cave this time next year? Will you be okay with that?

Tom

To take your last point first. If the owners cave this time next year, then they do. It will mean a two-tier league with folding franchises. Even though the team I cheer for will be in the first tier, it won't be as interesting as it would be if there was a level playing field, but I will still watch the games. I am a hockey fan and will remain one.

I guess I am not as emotional about these negotiations as many people on this board are. There really is no point in me getting all excited about franchises folding or players finishing their career playing for peanuts somewhere. If the players don't care, why should I? And I am hardly worried about the owners. They were rich men before the bought NHL teams and they will be rich men if the NHL folds.

As far as my thoughts that the NHL and the NHLPA might be defining details of the CBA behind closed doors...I only say that because I have seen that kind of thing happen in other negotiations. I have also learned from observing negotiations close up and from a distance, to put no stock in what is said for public consumption. That is all posturing. The real work goes on behind the scenes.

Hope that answers your questions. Let me ask the same ones of you?

If the owners don't give up now, what makes you think they will give up a year from now?

If the players cave this year, or this time next year, will you be ok with that?

 

[SENSible1*]

Tom lives in a fantasy world where Goodenow is under no pressure from his constituency to get a deal done.

 

[Cawz]

For what its worth...

I just heard an interview with Saskin and one thing he said that stuck out was "Bob invited Gary to tomorrows meeting".

Also, Bob walked by reporters and was asked some questions, and he was pissed off, rude and not answering any questions.

So make whatever guesses you want from the 2 minute segment on the Score.

 

[HckyFght*]

Too much is adding up.... SOMETHING is going on for there to be hope.

This "season is dead" talk should be atleast halted for the time being... why would these two clowns meet? Because they represent their constituents and something will happen. What? It's already ruled out that they wouldnt cancel the season as a tandem.. so for the most obvious resolution.. they are either debating some minor issue or signing it.

Or they are taking route three, where Bettman and the BOG call Goodenow into a meeting, pull their pants down and moon him. Season over.

Why do I hope for the comical sake that route three is the one we see?

Why wouldn't they cancel the season as a tandem? When they announce the season is over, they must immediately begin posturing for the next phase; impasse. Both sides must then gain support for the notion that the other is to blame for the inability of both to get a deal done. Goodenow must face his members and Bettman the fans, owners and hockey people. They may even deem it cowardly not to stand and face the music. I would. Also, neither would want the other to have sole posession of the microphone as the new phase of the debate begins. The cancellation of the season will be world-wide sports news. DO you think Goodenow would let Bettman have all that face-time by himself? I think it could go either way. But I'm feelin pretty down about it as of now.
-HckyFght!

 

[Motown Beatdown]

His job was to get the best job possible. So far, he is losing that battle...

Actually your wrong. Lets say the NHLPA agrees to this proposal it's better than the ones the NHL has offered up before.

 

[CarlRacki]

Actually your wrong. Lets say the NHLPA agrees to this proposal it's better than the ones the NHL has offered up before.

Well, if this offer is the best he can do, then he's not very good at his job.

However, it's been my thinking all along (and admittedly I might be wrong) that had the PA came off its anti-cap stand months ago, they could have negotiated during the ensuing weeks a great cap deal, perhaps on par with that of the NBA.

But by instead taking a position that the owners will cave - one that looks increasingly wrong - he may have left his constituents over the barrel, being forced to take whatever the league wants to shove down their throats.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

MY RANT

I'm a natural born optimist. I always think there is a chance.

What really sticks out to me is that there are only a few real issues between the two sides now on the table...One, obviosly is a huge one in the linkage,Cap, Luxary tax debate.

But should a season really be lost on one big issue like that? is it worth it? If these two egomatic millionares who are in charge of running this league and the PA...can not get a deal done because of these issues, I think both should flat out be fired, and a mediator be brung in immedietely.

The NHL and NHLPA clearly agree on a few points, it's just that 1 major and a few minor sticking points that have held up serious talks of a deal being done.

What really sickens me is that this deal could get done, NOW! if both sides opened their eyes and realized..."Hey if I scratch their back, then they'll scratch my back here"

Why not let the players or owners win on their cap/non cap stance? Then the other side gets to pull some weight in their favor on the other issues...

I still agree with the owners in this lockout, but doesn't mean i'm down for the cause.

I Just want to see the NHL this year. I don't care if there is a cap, if there is a 24% rollback on salaries...I DON"T CARE! i'm a die hard fan that is freaking pissed off at both sides now, and I just want my product. Is it so much to ask after years of paying $300 for a night to travel to chicago to see the Sharks play?

IF the NHL looses this season, I will give them a collective ** and seriosly forget about it all.

GET THIS DEAL DONE!

 

[Scoogs]

Actually your wrong. Lets say the NHLPA agrees to this proposal it's better than the ones the NHL has offered up before.

Actually, you're wrong. I said "so far"... and "so far", nothing has been agreed on. When a deal is reached we will see how his job went.

The NHLPA can let the season go, piss off the NHL, and force the NHL to go to an impasse. Or not... we wont know until tomorrow, the earliest.

 

[Cawz]

Just got off the phone with my dad, who is no hockey fan, but did negotiate labor relations agreements for General Motors for 20 years.

I was watching the Score and they had a Lockout Segment, and it was brought to you by General Motors.

Fitting, I guess.