McDavid - 20/21 vs. Crosby 10/11

[TopShelfYzerman]

There's a very big difference between playing 6 of 31 teams and playing 5 out of 6 teams, featuring the best players in North America. It's quite a bit easier to rack up points against a basement-dwelling Ottawa team with no star talent or Covid-ravaged Vancouver team, than it is a Montreal team with Beliveau/M. Richard/H. Richard/Moore/Plante/Geoffrion or a Leafs team with Keon/Horton/Mahovalich/Kelly.

Adding Europeans to the equation doesn't even come close to making up that gap in relative competition quality.

 

[Apotheosis]

McDavid pretty easily. "Muh only 6 teams" when the North isn't even the weakest defensively and we've see McDavid torch every other team in the league before.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You should apply a lot of context - and "adjust" scoring rates accordingly. Higher scoring league, better teammate (Drai 2021 > Malkin 2011), etc etc. But I think any sensible "adjustment" you do - McDavid's scoring rate this year still comes out slightly above Crosby's.

66 in 41 is 132 over 82 games.
96 in 52 is 151 over 82 games.

That's 14% higher production, with 11 more games played.

League wide scoring is closer to a ~5% gap than anything more than that.

Offensive production - McDavid 2021 has simply surpassed Crosby in 2011 imo.

To be honest, I don't think the bolded is being factored in enough. The big gap between the two comes down to their assist totals. I know it's impossible to say for certain exactly how much of that is due to linemates, but I'd argue that having Draisaitl on the receiving end of McDavid's passes will result in more assists than having Kunitz or Dupuis on the receiving end of Crosby's passes will.

 

[bobholly39]

To be honest, I don't think the bolded is being factored in enough. The big gap between the two comes down to their assist totals. I know it's impossible to say for certain exactly how much of that is due to linemates, but I'd argue that having Draisaitl on the receiving end of McDavid's passes will result in more assists than having Kunitz or Dupuis on the receiving end of Crosby's passes will.

He has 15% higher production over 25% more games.

I think that's becoming too big a gap, despite the teammate edge and lower scoring.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He has 15% higher production over 25% more games.

I think that's becoming too big a gap, despite the teammate edge and lower scoring.

What's the percentage gap in production between Draisaitl and Kunitz?

Again, ignoring linemates ignores context. The conclusion may very well be the same (ie. McDavid > Crosby), but ignoring the fact ANY player is likely to have more raw points playing next to Draisaitl than that exact same player would playing next to Kunitz/Dupuis just seems like it's omitting a pretty important factor in production.

 

[Future GOAT]

What's the percentage gap in production between Draisaitl and Kunitz?

Again, ignoring linemates ignores context. The conclusion may very well be the same (ie. McDavid > Crosby), but ignoring the fact ANY player is likely to have more raw points playing next to Draisaitl than that exact same player would playing next to Kunitz/Dupuis just seems like it's omitting a pretty important factor in production.

Clearly he's not ignoring linemates when his exact words are "despite teammate edge".

Also look at the gap McDavid has over said teammate. The guy who is the reigning hart and art ross winner is getting handily outperformed and out produced by McDavid while being on the same team and sometimes the same line.

This is comfortably McDavid.

 

[Son Goku]

Entering Gretzky/Lemieux level? dear lord. So this McDavid who feasts on Ottawa and Winnipeg is better than the Jagr who won four straight art rosses against Much greater competition in a lower scoring era? Nahhh

 

[nowhereman]

Clearly he's not ignoring linemates when his exact words are "despite teammate edge".

Also look at the gap McDavid has over said teammate. The guy who is the reigning hart and art ross winner is getting handily outperformed and out produced by McDavid while being on the same team and sometimes the same line.

This is comfortably McDavid.

You realize Crosby lead his team in scoring by 16 points that season, despite only playing half the year, right?

I don't think people are factoring in context nearly enough here.

 

[KCC]

McDavid does far more with less which makes it even more impressive.

 

[Gurglesons]

McDavid does far more with less which makes it even more impressive.

This isn’t true and I’m a PIT fan who voted McDavid in this thread.

 

[KidLine93]

Entering Gretzky/Lemieux level? dear lord. So this McDavid who feasts on Ottawa and Winnipeg is better than the Jagr who won four straight art rosses against Much greater competition in a lower scoring era? Nahhh

are you saying Jagr>>crosby?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Clearly he's not ignoring linemates when his exact words are "despite teammate edge".

Also look at the gap McDavid has over said teammate.[b/] The guy who is the reigning hart and art ross winner is getting handily outperformed and out produced by McDavid while being on the same team and sometimes the same line.

This is comfortably McDavid.

McDavid's linemate is currently 2nd in the entire league in points. And you even pointed out the fact he's a guy who literally swept the awards last season. Crosby's top linemate (Kunitz) had 28 points at the 41 game mark, which was good for 74th in the league, at the time Crosby went down to injury.

In regards to Malkin, who barely played with Crosby at 5on5, Malkin had 37 points that year, which is 29 less than what Crosby had. Not sure how that's more help for Crosby than having the 2nd leading scoring in hockey on his line.

 

[Regal]

But it's changing opinions on a 10 game sample rather than what your opinion is over the previous 40. Small sample or not, it's still a case of placing more importance over 10 games rather than the previous 41.

Let's look at it the opposite way. If someone believed McDavid was the superior player at Game 41 for each guy, then McDavid went on to score 5 points in the past 10 games, they shouldn't then use those 10 games to switch their vote to Crosby.

So then why would someone who thought Crosby was the better of the two when comparing their first 41 games suddenly feel McDavid is now the superior player after 10 extra games?

Also, this idea it's "bias" on my part (not you who suggested it) as a defense of Crosby are missing my entire point. I don't give a shit if someone chose McDavid. If you feel he's the superior player, then vote for him. What I'm saying is though it shouldn't be entirely because McDavid got red-hot over the past 10 games. Likewise, if McDavid had gone ice-cold over those 10 games, you shouldn't suddenly think Crosby was better based on McDavid's pace falling off.

But if things are incredibly close I don't see why a big run couldn't sway things one way or another. Similarly, people often say that we shouldn't use one season to judge two players, and complain about recency bias from it, but if two players are similar through 3 seasons, with player 1 slightly ahead, and then player 2 has a much better fourth season, I can see why that one season would put him ahead. It's not really recency bias in that case, because you're still considering the entire run of play, it's just that you're looking for anything that gives one the edge.

 

[Muggs]

Entering Gretzky/Lemieux level? dear lord. So this McDavid who feasts on Ottawa and Winnipeg is better than the Jagr who won four straight art rosses against Much greater competition in a lower scoring era? Nahhh

As a talent it's not a stretch to say he's on their level. If you can't see that my sympathies. Now if you want to measure talent with career achievements or production from past eras , then why even bother when nothing will likely ever touch the godly numbers of the 80's peak of the expansion era.

Isn't it amazing that if we look at the top 50 scorers of all-time, more then half are born in the late 50's to early 70's (or even more specific 60-70.) Which means as players their peaks were at the height of said era, and just before the butterfly began to revolutionize goaltending throughout the 90's and beyond.

Long-winded way to say it's a shame some fans can't appreciate greatness, or attempt to downplay it for whatever agenda, or against past era's, when the evolution of these players today is at peak level.

 

[Muggs]

Also, what I said for McDavid goes for Matthew's goal-scoring too.

 

[thadd]

Still think it isn't close?

If McDavid can run all over 31 other teams next year, sure. I'll go for my team's player.

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid really buried this comparison over the last 10 games or so.

 

[authentic]

If McDavid can run all over 31 other teams next year, sure. I'll go for my team's player.

100 points in 53 games now, but sure thing if you want to wait that long lol

 

[authentic]

McDavid really buried this comparison over the last 10 games or so.

His dominance is far too absurd to deny anymore.

 

[bobholly39]

His dominance is far too absurd to deny anymore.

Yeah, I agree. I still think taking everything into account (higher scoring, teammates, unique divisional play) - his edge over Crosby in 2011 isn't nearly as big as the raw numbers show - but overall, he's scoring at such a high clip. It's the better season.

29 points in his last 10 games. That's insane

 

[thadd]

100 points in 53 games now, but sure thing if you want to wait that long lol

Well I'm not really taking this season all that seriously. I think that most of the teams in the Northern division lack either 1 or all of blueline depth, solid goaltending and strong forechecking. There are a bunch of teams out there I still want to see McDavid play against before I decide that he's ascended into godhood.

 

[BraveCanadian]

McDavid. The league has evolved and today's players are better than ever. The game has changed and 2010/2011 Crosby just wouldn't be able to keep up.

 

[lawrence]

Mcdavid. Yes I know he had to play the same 6 teams over the course of 56 games with limited travel unlike Crosby who had to face every team in the NHL once scattered through a 82 games, but this one is Mcdavid despite that.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

McDavid pretty easily. "Muh only 6 teams" when the North isn't even the weakest defensively and we've see McDavid torch every other team in the league before.

The guy puts up 4 points a night against the sens Canucks and jets. No way he does this against the bruins pens caps etc. In the east that 100 points becomes 85 really quickly

 

[authentic]

Well I'm not really taking this season all that seriously. I think that most of the teams in the Northern division lack either 1 or all of blueline depth, solid goaltending and strong forechecking. There are a bunch of teams out there I still want to see McDavid play against before I decide that he's ascended into godhood.

Interesting. Crosby would be hard pressed to get more than 100 points in these same 53 games.