Speculation: Matt Duchene Megathread pt3 - All News/Proposals Go Here

[mikeyp24]

Does anybody really believe he would miss two years of hockey? He loses $12 Million in those two years plus the chance at a pay raise on a long term contract to end his career. That would be unheard of levels of stupid.

God no I don't think so I think he's traded before the season. I think he sits out camp and will take it all the way until 1 or 2 pre season games are left and fall in at that point. Just wondering what Avs fans would want. Spite the guy and waste the asset out of principle or take the best available assets for the problem let the guy go and treat him like a dick every time he comes in and let him devalue himself for when he hits open market.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Ok question just for the hell of it. Would you rather...


Let Duchene sit out until his contract is over.

Or

Get one of the offer you guys turned down in the thread IE NFL, MUY, CBJ, etc...

If he sits out, the Avs could easily use the same argument that the Senators and NHL successfully used against Yashin when he tried the same thing, claiming that Duchene didn't fulfill his side of the agreement, and therefore still owes the Avs 2 years of service. If there's no clear path to UFA, it's not in Duchene's best interest to waste 2 years of his NHL career trying to play hardball.

But, if Duchene is stupid enough to try it, I'd drag my feet and let him sit at home for at least a few months while I explore my options, both legal and trade related.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Is their final offer "we'll tank for Dahlin as well and give you the first"? Montreal just isn't a good trading partner, and if that's the deal Sakic gets done he's done a bang up job and being just atrocious at his job.

Tell me why a tanking team would want Duchene right now though ? It makes no sense. Teams that are lining up trade offers for Duchene are the ones with a win now mentality.

That said, I don't think Montreal has the assets that Colorado would want in a trade, on the prospect side. On the ice, I think the Habs could deal Gallagher or Lehkonen + prospects / picks, which would be a decent return and perhaps even a steal for the Avs (especially Lehkonen, he's bound to break out as a 25+ goals complete player, IMHO).

If Sakic wants Galchenyuk, Montreal won't make that trade. Galchenyuk has 35+ goals / 70 points potential, and if he can stay healthy I have no doubt he can make it happen. I have doubts Duchene can produce as much as he has before. Or perhaps could you explain why his production dropped as low as it did last season, honestly I haven't seen much Colorado games last season (other than when the Habs play them)

 

[leeroggy]

If Hanifin was on the table, the deal would of been done. What you are really saying is we have Hanifin so Sakic should be calling us instead of Montreal because they don't have Sergachev anymore. We won't give you Hanifin but because we have him, you should negotiate with us?

The whole point as to why Duchene is still with the Avs and not traded yes is because the Sergachev and Hanifin types were never on the table to begin with! Open your eyes. Sakic has to work with other trade packages and they are likely 1st round picks and prospects not like the Sergachev type.

You completely misrepresented what I said.

I was responding to a Montreal fan who wanted to make a 3-way. I couldn't care less whether Colorado and Carolina talk or not as I'm not a fan of either, or Montreal. Take your snotty attitude somewhere else.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

That's right, anyone who agrees with anything Sakic has done must be a delusional homer and not care about the future of the team. It's apparently impossible to use critical thinking and see anything positive in the long term plan that Sakic is apparently trying to implement, building through the draft and not trying to rush the rebuild by making stupid trades that don't address the team's needs. We should all just agree with the assessment of HF's hive mind that Sakic is a horrible GM and can't possibly do anything right, regardless of any evidence that might contradict those claims, like the vastly improved prospect pool. Sorry if my willingness to see how his long term plan works out before judging his performance doesn't align with HF's hatred of him due to a lack of short term results and a few minor missteps.

And, you may not have used last year to devalue him (I'm not going to go back through every one of your posts), but that doesn't mean that you haven't adjusted what you'd be willing to take as a result of other people doing it. How many packages have you been willing to accept, just in this thread, that do absolutely nothing to address the Avs most pressing need? Juulsen (a RD) + 2 likely late firsts + Scherbak + Plekanec? 2 1sts or a good forward prospect? Neither one is going to fix the Avs LHD issues, but that's OK because the value is good compared to the plethora of crap proposals we've seen, right?

Wow, so much made up BS.

1) I didn't say "anyone". I just said you are.

2) it's not about agreeing with "anything". You agree with every single thing. Hence, being a homer

3) in this instance you are delusional because you think we are magically going to fix our LHD with a young, proven player. It's never going to happen. The sooner Sakic realizes that the better. And I'm sure you will be right there defending his decision even though you are so adamant about getting a Dman right now

4) where did I say you don't care about the future of the team? You obviously care more about Sakic.

5) blindly agreeing with everything is not critical thinking

6) People can acknowledge the evidence which is good. nobody said he can't do anything right. This is just more hyperbole by you. What does his overall resume have to do with Duchene anyways? Him booting Beauchemin says nothing about how he is handling Duchene.

7) A few minor missteps? Lol. More hyperbole.

8) I have not adjust anything based on what others are doing. You have no idea what I have and have not said. You are just blatantly talking out your ass. I've been for any type of fair trade since the draft when it became obvious Sakic wasn't getting the LHD he wanted.

9) Juulsen? More proof you have no clue what I've said. I've never agreed to a package with him. Not recently or even months ago. You are just straight up talking out your ass. If you knew anything about me you would have at least included Lindgren.

10) Actually, the only way we are going to fix our LHD issue (top pair) is by drafting one. But yeah, your right, extra 1st round picks wouldn't help with that. First you rant about being able to critically analyze the long term plan, but then you downplay a package including numerous 1st round picks. You are just contradicting yourself at this point.

 

[Ararana]

This thread went down the ****ter again. Lock it up and open #5 around the trade deadline?

 

[Viqsi]

That's right, anyone who agrees with anything Sakic has done must be a delusional homer and not care about the future of the team. It's apparently impossible to use critical thinking and see anything positive in the long term plan that Sakic is apparently trying to implement, building through the draft and not trying to rush the rebuild by making stupid trades that don't address the team's needs. We should all just agree with the assessment of HF's hive mind that Sakic is a horrible GM and can't possibly do anything right, regardless of any evidence that might contradict those claims, like the vastly improved prospect pool. Sorry if my willingness to see how his long term plan works out before judging his performance doesn't align with HF's hatred of him due to a lack of short term results and a few minor missteps.

This is how I can be both annoyed with and sympathetic towards Avs fans right now simultaneously. This rant in particular... swap out "Sakic" with "Howson" and it could have been one of mine from a few years ago.

 

[Captain97]

Does anybody really believe he would miss two years of hockey? He loses $12 Million in those two years plus the chance at a pay raise on a long term contract to end his career. That would be unheard of levels of stupid.

He could play in the KHL with an option clause based around being traded in the nhl.

 

[Tankster*]

The Habs need a center badly, and Duchesne is done in Colorado. The stars are aligned, we'll see i guess.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Wow, so much made up BS.

1) I didn't say "anyone". I just said you are.

2) it's not about agreeing with "anything". You agree with every single thing. Hence, being a homer

3) in this instance you are delusional because you think we are magically going to fix our LHD with a young, proven player. It's never going to happen. The sooner Sakic realizes that the better. And I'm sure you will be right there defending his decision even though you are so adamant about getting a Dman right now

4) where did I say you don't care about the future of the team? You obviously care more about Sakic.

5) blindly agreeing with everything is not critical thinking

6) People can acknowledge the evidence which is good. nobody said he can't do anything right. This is just more hyperbole by you. What does his overall resume have to do with Duchene anyways? Him booting Beauchemin says nothing about how he is handling Duchene.

7) A few minor missteps? Lol. More hyperbole.

8) I have not adjust anything based on what others are doing. You have no idea what I have and have not said. You are just blatantly talking out your ass. I've been for any type of fair trade since the draft when it became obvious Sakic wasn't getting the LHD he wanted.

9) Juulsen? More proof you have no clue what I've said. I've never agreed to a package with him. Not recently or even months ago. You are just straight up talking out your ass. If you knew anything about me you would have at least included Lindgren.

10) Actually, the only way we are going to fix our LHD issue (top pair) is by drafting one. But yeah, your right, extra 1st round picks wouldn't help with that. First you rant about being able to critically analyze the long term plan, but then you downplay a package including numerous 1st round picks. You are just contradicting yourself at this point.

I actually don't agree with everything Sakic has done. There are a number of things I would have done differently, but I can understand why he made the choices he has. Of course, I don't think the way he handled the Stastny situation or giving Iginla a year too long or Beauchemin an extra year or trading Holden for a 4th or signing Colborne or trading for Stuart or giving Bednar a second chance after last year or any of his other minor missteps will have a massive impact on the long term success of the team. In the grand scheme of things, they really don't matter that much, and are just means to an end, so I don't see the point in getting my panties in a bunch about them. That's why I call them minor missteps.

Looking at the big picture, I see that he's rebuilt the prospect pool into something respectable. The Avs appear to have a functional pipeline of young talent they can add to the team that hasn't really been there since they moved from Quebec. It's still early to say for sure, but if Rantanen is representative of things to come, the future is bright. He also got EJ, Barrie, and MacKinnon under longer term deals that don't hurt the cap too much, even if Barrie's negotiations didn't go as smoothly as I would have liked. Overall, the things he's done for the long term have been pretty good.

For point 9, someone offered Juulsen, 2 firsts, Scherbak and Pleks. You asked where they got 2 firsts, they said it would be 2018 and 2019, and your response was something to the effect of a 15-20 pick would make that good value. I interpreted your response as being amenable to the trade. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant to say, but neglected to type.

Lastly, I agree that drafting is the best way to get a top LHD. But, I'm not sure how getting mid-late 1sts really helps us with that. Do you think the team that lucks into Dahlin is going to give him up for 4th + 21st + 23rd (or whatever those picks end up being with Duchene on the team)? Or do you think the Avs end up taking McIsaac/Hughes/whoever at 4th to address the D issue, and just add young talent with BPA with the later picks? If we're still working under the assumption that the primary reason to trade Duchene (or anyone really) is to improve the Avs defense, then I fail to see how getting late firsts does that. I mean, sure, it gives us a chance to do that, assuming BPA with those late picks is a D who ends up making the team, but it doesn't really directly address the issue. That's why I have an issue with it, because it fails to achieve the primary goal of moving Duchene. And, at this instant in time, I don't see a compelling reason to abandon that primary goal yet. If Duchene fails to report to camp, or demands a trade, or any of the other potentially compelling reasons actually happen, then I'll be on board with getting the best return we can. But, objectively, there's no reason to change the plan yet.

 

[PrOuLx]

So with Ellis injury. Nashville is out?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

That's right, anyone who agrees with anything Sakic has done must be a delusional homer and not care about the future of the team. It's apparently impossible to use critical thinking and see anything positive in the long term plan that Sakic is apparently trying to implement, building through the draft and not trying to rush the rebuild by making stupid trades that don't address the team's needs. We should all just agree with the assessment of HF's hive mind that Sakic is a horrible GM and can't possibly do anything right, regardless of any evidence that might contradict those claims, like the vastly improved prospect pool. Sorry if my willingness to see how his long term plan works out before judging his performance doesn't align with HF's hatred of him due to a lack of short term results and a few minor missteps.

The Avs have never truly committed to a rebuild. Rebuilding teams don't trade picks and prospects for useless junk.

Sakic sucks.

The prospect pool would be even better with Kyle Wood and 3 2nd rounders.

There has been more than enough bad decisions on so many levels. It is known.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I actually don't agree with everything Sakic has done. There are a number of things I would have done differently, but I can understand why he made the choices he has. Of course, I don't think the way he handled the Stastny situation or giving Iginla a year too long or Beauchemin an extra year or trading Holden for a 4th or signing Colborne or trading for Stuart or giving Bednar a second chance after last year or any of his other minor missteps will have a massive impact on the long term success of the team. In the grand scheme of things, they really don't matter that much, and are just means to an end, so I don't see the point in getting my panties in a bunch about them. That's why I call them minor missteps.

Looking at the big picture, I see that he's rebuilt the prospect pool into something respectable. The Avs appear to have a functional pipeline of young talent they can add to the team that hasn't really been there since they moved from Quebec. It's still early to say for sure, but if Rantanen is representative of things to come, the future is bright. He also got EJ, Barrie, and MacKinnon under longer term deals that don't hurt the cap too much, even if Barrie's negotiations didn't go as smoothly as I would have liked. Overall, the things he's done for the long term have been pretty good.

For point 9, someone offered Juulsen, 2 firsts, Scherbak and Pleks. You asked where they got 2 firsts, they said it would be 2018 and 2019, and your response was something to the effect of a 15-20 pick would make that good value. I interpreted your response as being amenable to the trade. Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant to say, but neglected to type.

Lastly, I agree that drafting is the best way to get a top LHD. But, I'm not sure how getting mid-late 1sts really helps us with that. Do you think the team that lucks into Dahlin is going to give him up for 4th + 21st + 23rd (or whatever those picks end up being with Duchene on the team)? Or do you think the Avs end up taking McIsaac/Hughes/whoever at 4th to address the D issue, and just add young talent with BPA with the later picks? If we're still working under the assumption that the primary reason to trade Duchene (or anyone really) is to improve the Avs defense, then I fail to see how getting late firsts does that. I mean, sure, it gives us a chance to do that, assuming BPA with those late picks is a D who ends up making the team, but it doesn't really directly address the issue. That's why I have an issue with it, because it fails to achieve the primary goal of moving Duchene. And, at this instant in time, I don't see a compelling reason to abandon that primary goal yet. If Duchene fails to report to camp, or demands a trade, or any of the other potentially compelling reasons actually happen, then I'll be on board with getting the best return we can. But, objectively, there's no reason to change the plan yet.

Maybe you don't agree with everything, but you sure seem to defend everything. Those are not the only missteps. His major blunders include: hiring Bednar and re-signing him, having freaking Billington run the AHL/development, ever agreeing to sharing duties with Roy, and this Duchene situation is going terribly.

Actually I do remember that Juulsen conversation. Touché. But I only liked it if it include a mid round pick and both being in 2018, which it didnt. If we can get 2 1st round picks in 2018, one top20, plus some addition pieces on top of that then that is more than fair value.

Dahlin isn't our only hope. The first round, particularly top20 has been producing a lot of very talented Dmen.

The primary reason to trade Duchene is because he no longer wants to be here. At first the point might have been to upgrade the D, but now it's more than that. We just need him gone and nobody is trading the Dman we want.

Objectively there is no reason to change the plan? Let's look at some of comments and happenings over the summer and try and tell me you are being objective :

Barberio says it's best for both parties to part ways.
Brisson and Sakic get in a dispute on the draft floor.
Duchene basically admits he quit on the team in Jan, and justifies it because others did (those others are now gone, other than Soderberg and Colborne)
Grigo aired his frustration about the media circus in the locker room after every game
Duchene says he doesn't want to use the word divorce because that's a strong word (he is obviously thinking something similar)
Duchene claims he doesn't identify with any team right now
Duchene no shows to captains skate, something everyone traditionally shows up for
Lando seems frustrated that he was a no show

Dude, it's over. It's going to be a bad situation if Duchene returns to this team.

 

[S3rkie]

He could play in the KHL with an option clause based around being traded in the nhl.

Even if he had an out clause he would need to pass through waivers to play in the NHL, since he would have played games in another league in the same season. I.E. the ROR offer sheet and how bad Calgary would have beens screwed if the Avs didnt match.

 

[Video Coach]

Even if he had an out clause he would need to pass through waivers to play in the NHL, since he would have played games in another league in the same season. I.E. the ROR offer sheet and how bad Calgary would have beens screwed if the Avs didnt match.

I don't think he can play in the KHL. He has a contract, he's not like Pasta or AA. KHL and NHL honour each other's contracts. His only option would be to sit at home, which I guess he could do, but he can't just sign somewhere else.

 

[boredmale]

I really haven't paid much attention to this thread since early July, but is it true that Duchene might sit out? I read it somewhere earlier(forgot where) and I am wondering if the guy was talking out of his butt or it might be true

 

[RockyMtnRedhawk]

Habs get:
Matt Duchene

Canes get:
Alex Galchenyuk

Avs gets:
Jake Bean
Nicolas Roy
Car 1st

That's the base, mid/late picks could be added to balance value.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Maybe you don't agree with everything, but you sure seem to defend everything. Those are not the only missteps. His major blunders include: hiring Bednar and re-signing him, having freaking Billington run the AHL/development, ever agreeing to sharing duties with Roy, and this Duchene situation is going terribly.

Actually I do remember that Juulsen conversation. Touché. But I only liked it if it include a mid round pick and both being in 2018, which it didnt. If we can get 2 1st round picks in 2018, one top20, plus some addition pieces on top of that then that is more than fair value.

Dahlin isn't our only hope. The first round, particularly top20 has been producing a lot of very talented Dmen.

The primary reason to trade Duchene is because he no longer wants to be here. At first the point might have been to upgrade the D, but now it's more than that. We just need him gone and nobody is trading the Dman we want.

Objectively there is no reason to change the plan? Let's look at some of comments and happenings over the summer and try and tell me you are being objective :

Barberio says it's best for both parties to part ways.
Brisson and Sakic get in a dispute on the draft floor.
Duchene basically admits he quit on the team in Jan, and justifies it because others did (those others are now gone, other than Soderberg and Colborne)
Grigo aired his frustration about the media circus in the locker room after every game
Duchene says he doesn't want to use the word divorce because that's a strong word (he is obviously thinking something similar)
Duchene claims he doesn't identify with any team right now
Duchene no shows to captains skate, something everyone traditionally shows up for
Lando seems frustrated that he was a no show

Dude, it's over. It's going to be a bad situation if Duchene returns to this team.

There are more than enough people around here who are quick to jump on trashing every mistake Sakic makes, and echoing the same things everyone else is saying doesn't add anything to the conversation, so I tend to just nod and agree and go on with my day.

I agree that Bednar might have been a mistake. I'm willing to give him a second chance (what other option do I really have?), but his first season as head coach left a lot to be desired. I also heard rumors that Roy might have poisoned the well, talking to other potential coaching candidates and convincing them to stay away. Can't confirm anything, obviously, but I could see Roy doing it.

I also agree that Billington isn't a great choice for player development. But, it seems like a pretty specialized field, so I'd guess that qualified candidates are hard to find. I'm all for getting someone better in that role, but I don't think it's something that can or should be forced.

Roy was owner and GM of the Remparts, and had experience building teams. It kind of made sense for a neophyte GM to bring in someone he trusted with that experience. Obviously, it failed spectacularly, as Roy had a different idea for the direction of the team, but there was some logic behind the choice.

As for the Duchene situation, no, it's not ideal. But, I think that allowing the media to dictate what he does as GM would be a bigger problem. Yes, he could have squashed the rumors more firmly, but he told the media that he wasn't looking to move Duchene, wasn't looking to make a move just to make a move, and insinuated that most of the alleged rumors were just other teams trying to pick the carcass of a team that sucked. I struggle to blame him for the media ignoring his official statement and continuing to push the narrative that Duchene was being shopped, as I don't know what he could have said to get them to stop.


And, from a business standpoint, no, there is no objective reason to deviate from the plan yet. I don't give a **** if he's unhappy, he's under contract. If he doesn't want to honor that contract, he's welcome to retire. Otherwise, he needs to show up, do his job, and help management find a reasonable and mutually beneficial solution to his problem, on whatever timeline makes the most sense for everyone.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Habs get:
Matt Duchene

Canes get:
Alex Galchenyuk

Avs gets:
Jake Bean
Nicolas Roy
Car 1st

That's the base, mid/late picks could be added to balance value.

Carolina wouldn't swap Duchene for Galchenyuk in that hypothetical, imo. Galchenyuk is slightly cheaper and under contract for an additional year, but Duchene is a center and Carolina needs an upgrade on Ryan as the offensive pivot that complements Rask/Staal/Kruger.

Had Montreal not signed Galchenyuk to that extension, maybe it would be a different story.

 

[leeroggy]

As for the Duchene situation, no, it's not ideal. But, I think that allowing the media to dictate what he does as GM would be a bigger problem. Yes, he could have squashed the rumors more firmly, but he told the media that he wasn't looking to move Duchene, wasn't looking to make a move just to make a move, and insinuated that most of the alleged rumors were just other teams trying to pick the carcass of a team that sucked. I struggle to blame him for the media ignoring his official statement and continuing to push the narrative that Duchene was being shopped, as I don't know what he could have said to get them to stop.

And, from a business standpoint, no, there is no objective reason to deviate from the plan yet. I don't give a **** if he's unhappy, he's under contract. If he doesn't want to honor that contract, he's welcome to retire. Otherwise, he needs to show up, do his job, and help management find a reasonable and mutually beneficial solution to his problem, on whatever timeline makes the most sense for everyone.

That's where you are wrong right now. It's not the media dictating this narrative, it's the agent and player. There is no way this ends well.

The second paragraph is now wishful thinking. This is now a cancer in the locker room issue. It's beyond repair right now. If you doubt that just read up on the Kyrie Irving fiasco. Very similar situation. And the trade had to happen. Now, it's just how much can he fetch.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

So with Ellis injury. Nashville is out?

Nashville were never going to trade a top 4 D for Duchene anyway so I don't think this changes much. If anything, with Bonino also being hurt I'd think Nashville would be more eager to get Duchene. Fabbro + Tolvanen + draft pick for Duchene 50% retained!!

 

[DavidBL]

That's where you are wrong right now. It's not the media dictating this narrative, it's the agent and player. There is no way this ends well.

The second paragraph is now wishful thinking. This is now a cancer in the locker room issue. It's beyond repair right now. If you doubt that just read up on the Kyrie Irving fiasco. Very similar situation. And the trade had to happen. Now, it's just how much can he fetch.

Honestly this kind of reminds me of Jeff Carter after he was traded to CBJ. He still got a solid return but no where near the number of pieces that Sakic appears to asking for Duchene. If I wanted to figure out an offer I would start there and go down because of the difference in team control. You could also look at the Kesler deal as he had the same term.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Honestly this kind of reminds me of Jeff Carter after he was traded to CBJ. He still got a solid return but no where near the number of pieces that Sakic appears to asking for Duchene. If I wanted to figure out an offer I would start there and go down because of the difference in team control. You could also look at the Kesler deal as he had the same term.

Jeff Carter returned 25 year old Jack Johnson, who was averaging 23 minutes per night and ~40 points per season over the prior 3 seasons, along with a 1st round pick. I think the Avs would be ecstatic with that kind of return. You could even drop the 1st, and the Avs could add something on their side.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Who is this guy? I live in Denver and have never heard of him.