Marlies/Prospect Thread 13-14 V 1.0 - Gauthier signs ATO/Johnson RotY

[Bad Goalie]

Was at that game. Was a great game, great atmosphere and want to say Utica is a great town to see a game in. However, Utica played the next night at home again so it wasn't the last game.

Read the whole post stated up front that it was the Comets' "next to last game". Part you refer to was a typo. Sorry, but you should also have read the whole post.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I think Carrick and Leivo (especially him) need at least 1 more AHL, I would rather groom them so that they are able to step into the NHL comfortably, and in Leivo's case I want him to be a 2nd line guy for us, not a checker, think it's good to hone his skill down in the AHL.

Carrick was bounced around a lot previously and this is now truly his first AHL season, I think one more would be ideal.

 

[QMJHLfollower]

I think Carrick and Leivo (especially him) need at least 1 more AHL, I would rather groom them so that they are able to step into the NHL comfortably, and in Leivo's case I want him to be a 2nd line guy for us, not a checker, think it's good to hone his skill down in the AHL.

Carrick was bounced around a lot previously and this is now truly his first AHL season, I think one more would be ideal.

Agreed. I'm a big Carrick and Leivo fan, but I'd keep them another year in the AHL. No need to rush them.

Ashton, D'Amigo and Holland are the guys who are ready to make the jump, IMO. Abbott deserves a chance as well.

 

[highslot]

Not saying our bottom six hasn't been bad, I'm just disputing that it can't get worse. It can. As for D'Amigo and Ashton, playing fourth line minutes is very different from a top 9-position. That's why you usually see very specialized types of players on that line. Of course they are not done as prospects just because they struggle as fourth liners, that's ridiculous.

One of the things you do when a prospect struggles is to sit him or send him down again to get his confidence back and get a chance to figure out what is not working right now. You don't take a prospect and tell them to play through their difficulties, that is a great way to ruin their development.

And yeah, it would be great if our prospects could get ice time and take a position, but you don't just give it to them either. You put them in a situation where they compete for a spot and the best player at any given moment has the spot, preferably with some solid veteran depth players involved as well. I'm sorry, but you seem so angry over Carlyle refusing to give our prospects the time they deserve that you want to go to the other extreme, and I just don't think that's a smart thing to do.

i agree about not giving it to them. what i can say is that d'amigo and ashton did not look out of place in the nhl. while a small sample size, they were able to keep up with the plays. d'amigo has a major motor and could fill in for 2nd line in a pinch; he's a clutch player. in fact, i'd rather have him as a linemate of kadri than clarkson.

if you had bodie and jaymac and ashton on 4th, and holland, d'amigo, komorov on 3rd, it would be fine.

 

[Hotlanta]

Agreed. I'm a big Carrick and Leivo fan, but I'd keep them another year in the AHL. No need to rush them.

Ashton, D'Amigo and Holland are the guys who are ready to make the jump, IMO. Abbott deserves a chance as well.

I think Ashton, D'amigo, Holland, Kozun, Abbott, & Holzer get long looks in training camp next season. I believe Ashton, D'amigo & Holland will all make the team and it will be do or die for the other 3 as they are no longer waiver eligible.

The 5 dark horses who are waiver exempt are MacWilliam, Devane, Leivo, Carrick, & Granberg. I believe Granberg makes it from the get go with the other 4 getting chances at stealing roster spots over the season.

I think Broll, McKegg, Brown, Percy, Nilsson & Loov will have to wait to 2015-16 for their shots.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I think Ashton, D'amigo, Holland, Kozun, Abbott, & Holzer get long looks in training camp next season. I believe Ashton, D'amigo & Holland will all make the team and it will be do or die for the other 3 as they are no longer waiver eligible.

The 5 dark horses who are waiver exempt are MacWilliam, Devane, Leivo, Carrick, & Granberg. I believe Granberg makes it from the get go with the other 4 getting chances at stealing roster spots over the season.

I think Broll, McKegg, Brown, Percy, Nilsson & Loov will have to wait to 2015-16 for their shots.

I agree MacWilliam, Devane, Leivo, Carrick and Granberg can be NHLers

I also include Broll and Percy in that group

McKegg (if he's not in top 6), Loov, and Nilsson I wouldn't put money on making the NHL. More long shots.

Ashton, D'Amigo, Holzer (as 6 or 7), and Holland are NHLers now.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think Carrick and Leivo (especially him) need at least 1 more AHL, I would rather groom them so that they are able to step into the NHL comfortably, and in Leivo's case I want him to be a 2nd line guy for us, not a checker, think it's good to hone his skill down in the AHL.

Carrick was bounced around a lot previously and this is now truly his first AHL season, I think one more would be ideal.

Leivo to me is our best fwd prospect by a wide margin, I have felt this way for awhile, and how he has played this year has only reaffirmed this belief.

He's 21 in a month, if he can put on some more muscle this summer, improve his core strength and skating. This is going to be one of our best 3rd rd picks in a long time.

He will be up at some point next season, whether he starts in the AHL next year or the Leafs, Leivo is going to be one damn good hockey player for us.

Carrick has surprised me, he is 22, he might have another year in the AHL, but with Mcclement unlikely back, he's the perfect replacement for him to atleast start on the 4th line. Carrick may even work his way up in the line up with time. With a strong playoff, he will even put himself more on the radar to Leafs Mgt.

D'amigo 23 is the 3rd Leaf's fwd prospect I am high on, Kulemin is all but gone. Jerry should be able to fill his spot. He's a 200 ft player, works his butt off, he is a selfless player to use a Shanny adjective.

If these 3 guys make the Leafs next season, they will be great examples of draft, develop, and promote.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Leivo to me is our best fwd prospect by a wide margin, I have felt this way for awhile, and how he has played this year has only reaffirmed this belief.

He's 21 in a month, if he can put on some more muscle this summer, improve his core strength and skating. This is going to be one of our best 3rd rd picks in a long time.

He will be up at some point next season, whether he starts in the AHL next year or the Leafs, Leivo is going to be one damn good hockey player for us.

Carrick has surprised me, he is 22, he might have another year in the AHL, but with Mcclement unlikely back, he's the perfect replacement for him to atleast start on the 4th line. Carrick may even work his way up in the line up with time. With a strong playoff, he will even put himself more on the radar to Leafs Mgt.

D'amigo 23 is the 3rd Leaf's fwd prospect I am high on, Kulemin is all but gone. Jerry should be able to fill his spot. He's a 200 ft player, works his butt off, he is a selfless player to use a Shanny adjective.

If these 3 guys make the Leafs next season, they will be great examples of draft, develop, and promote.

Think Carrick and Leivo need 1 more year, only 1 year of pro in the AHL is not enough. I agree they will be good.

Leivo I want to give him another year in the AHL, really fill him with confidence, and the following season pencil him in for a spot on the 2nd line.

I also think Carrick will be a good replacement, I was thinking give Jay Mclement a 2 yr contract, and in the 2nd year of his contract, he could move to wing on the 4th line and mentor Carrick a bit.

D'Amigo is ready for the NHL, only thing he does not have on Kulemin is the size (albeit Kulemin did not use it as much as i'd like) but he's a good bottom 6 guy.

I agree in draft, develop, and promote.

The developing part is where the Leafs have struggled is the develop part. I think you look at Detroit, and they definitely develop their players. Example; Gustav Nyquist, drafted in 08, and he still spent some time in the AHL this year (probably more due to the cap) but he's 24 now. He's also a complete and productive player because of it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Think Carrick and Leivo need 1 more year, only 1 year of pro in the AHL is not enough. I agree they will be good.

Leivo I want to give him another year in the AHL, really fill him with confidence, and the following season pencil him in for a spot on the 2nd line.

I also think Carrick will be a good replacement, I was thinking give Jay Mclement a 2 yr contract, and in the 2nd year of his contract, he could move to wing on the 4th line and mentor Carrick a bit.

D'Amigo is ready for the NHL, only thing he does not have on Kulemin is the size (albeit Kulemin did not use it as much as i'd like) but he's a good bottom 6 guy.

I agree in draft, develop, and promote.

The developing part is where the Leafs have struggled is the develop part. I think you look at Detroit, and they definitely develop their players. Example; Gustav Nyquist, drafted in 08, and he still spent some time in the AHL this year (probably more due to the cap) but he's 24 now. He's also a complete and productive player because of it.

Interesting philosophies on development. For drafted players, depending on where they are drafted. Like a parent, I expect them to move out at 21-22. This gives a team 5 good seasons of usage of player before they go UFA unless signed.

I don't subscribe to the Detroit model of playing prospects to death in the AHL before they are called up. I rather look at it on a case to case basis, a season or 2 is enough seasoning for a prospect in the AHL pros.

I look at Kenny Ryan, and see him at 23 in July as one that is not going to make it. Time to move him out and give another player a chance.

In essence I am not hung up on the 3 - 4 seasons with the Marlies, I see players at 21-22 as time they should make a serious push for NHL jobs. If they are not like Ryan, they need to move out. As a parent would boot their offspring out of the house.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I don't subscribe to the Detroit model of playing prospects to death in the AHL before they are called up. I rather look at it on a case to case basis, a season or 2 is enough seasoning for a prospect in the AHL pros.

I don't buy that that's even a model. They just don't pick high enough to get players who can make the jump by 20. It's not like they always have a bunch of PPG AHL prospects.

 

[ULF_55]

Interesting philosophies on development. For drafted players, depending on where they are drafted. Like a parent, I expect them to move out at 21-22. This gives a team 5 good seasons of usage of player before they go UFA unless signed.

I don't subscribe to the Detroit model of playing prospects to death in the AHL before they are called up. I rather look at it on a case to case basis, a season or 2 is enough seasoning for a prospect in the AHL pros.

I look at Kenny Ryan, and see him at 23 in July as one that is not going to make it. Time to move him out and give another player a chance.

In essence I am not hung up on the 3 - 4 seasons with the Marlies, I see players at 21-22 as time they should make a serious push for NHL jobs. If they are not like Ryan, they need to move out. As a parent would boot their offspring out of the house.

I don't buy that that's even a model. They just don't pick high enough to get players who can make the jump by 20. It's not like they always have a bunch of PPG AHL prospects.

Are you sure it isn't that a team that is always in the playoffs doesn't have to rush prospects because unlike the Leafs they aren't continuously in panic mode?

 

[Joey Hoser]

Are you sure it isn't that a team that is always in the playoffs doesn't have to rush prospects because unlike the Leafs they aren't continuously in panic mode?

Well, that too, but they still just never acquire the prospects who can make the NHL as teens. They have no choice but to play them in the AHL.

I'm not saying they don't prefer leaving them in the AHL longer, but we don't really know that because they don't have guys you can point to and say "any other team and he'd be in the NHL by now".

 

[gabeliscious]

if a player can handle the nhl game meaning they are fast and strong enough then i think the leafs should give them an opportunity.

the leafs have fundamental issues both with culture and players. we havent made the playoffs in almost a decade save for one in a shortened season where we lost in the first round in such a fashion that will likely cause psychological trauma to the players for years to come. imo play the kids, its not like we can get significantly worse. let the kids grow together and change the mentality/culture of the maple leafs. the kids are hungry, let them go hunting.


players like ashton, damigo, holland should 100% be up with the leafs next season. i dont really consider bodie a prospect but he is basically considered an ahl player before this season i think he should 100% be back with the leafs next season. players like brennan, abbott, leivo, carrick, granberg, percy, and brennan should all be given ample opportunity in training camp to make the team.

every ufa that we could "possibly" sign will take an overpayment both in money and term. people penciling stastny and moulson at less money they are currently making and for 2 and 3 year deals are not being realistic. there are no ufas this summer who will change the destiny of the leafs. at a minimum we will remain very flexible cap wise which may help make a significant trade down the line. if we are going to have a stinker of a year 2015 is the one the do it in as well.

 

[theIceWookie]

Are you sure it isn't that a team that is always in the playoffs doesn't have to rush prospects because unlike the Leafs they aren't continuously in panic mode?

When their GM says the whole "Detroit model" has everything to do with not getting high picks, then yes, it has nothing to do with that.

Go peruse the Red Wings boards. Nyquist was basically locked in the AHL because they didn't have a roster spot because of team mismanagement at the NHL level. Fans weren't exactly pleased by this.

Jarnkrok was traded at a cut rate because the team didn't have the ability to give him a spot. That's not good. Detroit fans are pissed over this deal.

 

[WTFMAN99]

There is no "right way" to develop prospects.

I know with Chicago and Detroit, they have a back log of guys who could play in the NHL, and have had to hold back Nyquist for example due to cap/roster spots, you don't want to be in that scenario.

But I also don't want to rush players either.

 

[Hotlanta]

There is no "right way" to develop prospects.

I know with Chicago and Detroit, they have a back log of guys who could play in the NHL, and have had to hold back Nyquist for example due to cap/roster spots, you don't want to be in that scenario.

But I also don't want to rush players either.

I like to look more towards TBs current strategy. Play them in Juniors until they have outgrown it, then play them in the AHL until they are getting close to outgrowing it, and at this time, have enough depth that no player just walks onto the team. Typically 3/4 of the way through their second season (varies depending on the players development), they get a shot at the NHL, if they play outstanding, they will continue to get shots, if they play okay, they will usually be sent back for the AHL playoffs & if they sucked, they go back knowing what they need to do to get to the next level.

Typically its 1-2 more years in Junior, then 1.5-2.5 years in the AHL. For some players by 20-21 they are ready to make a push, and for others its 22-23. The thing is, management knows that the players who are ready 20 are not necessarily better than the ones that make the jump at 23, they just develop faster. That is a management that is doing a fine job of being patient with their players and should be a good example for us.

 

[Trapper]

There is no "right way" to develop prospects.

I know with Chicago and Detroit, they have a back log of guys who could play in the NHL, and have had to hold back Nyquist for example due to cap/roster spots, you don't want to be in that scenario.

But I also don't want to rush players either.

What's important also is bringing those players up when you have the right role for them. If you have players that are scoring 20+ goals in the AHL, you don't bring them up to play 3 minutes with Colton Orr. If you think a player like D'Amigo is a Kulemin replacement, then you move Kulemin @ 3 million for draft picks and put Jerry in his spot. They really need to learn how to do this.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I like to look more towards TBs current strategy. Play them in Juniors until they have outgrown it, then play them in the AHL until they are getting close to outgrowing it, and at this time, have enough depth that no player just walks onto the team. Typically 3/4 of the way through their second season (varies depending on the players development), they get a shot at the NHL, if they play outstanding, they will continue to get shots, if they play okay, they will usually be sent back for the AHL playoffs & if they sucked, they go back knowing what they need to do to get to the next level.

Typically its 1-2 more years in Junior, then 1.5-2.5 years in the AHL. For some players by 20-21 they are ready to make a push, and for others its 22-23. The thing is, management knows that the players who are ready 20 are not necessarily better than the ones that make the jump at 23, they just develop faster. That is a management that is doing a fine job of being patient with their players and should be a good example for us.

What's important also is bringing those players up when you have the right role for them. If you have players that are scoring 20+ goals in the AHL, you don't bring them up to play 3 minutes with Colton Orr. If you think a player like D'Amigo is a Kulemin replacement, then you move Kulemin @ 3 million for draft picks and put Jerry in his spot. They really need to learn how to do this.

Pretty much on the same page with you guys about your points.

Just to add to trappers point, thats why I want Leivo to take another year in the AHL.

I don't want him to come up, struggle, get regulated to 3rd line, lack confidence and screw up the development. I'd like another year of him in the AHL, let him dominate a bit, get confident, come up and aim for a top 6 roster spot, rather then getting stuck on a 3rd/4th line with Jay Mclement or whoever our bottom 6 centres are.

I think having Ashton up and either sitting in favor of Orr, or only getting 3-5 mins a night was awful, he was killing it in the AHL and should of gotten a decent chance in the top 9. It's a big reason why I don't think I could handle Randy coming back (but different topic entirely)

 

[The Winter Soldier]

With Finn, Rupert, Brown, Loov, Nilsson joining the Marlies next year, some of our lesser prospects may be moved out.

I view this as a positive, we now have players on the cusp of making the big club. This is what Burke rebuilt, and I hope Nonis continues. Nonis has a bad habit of trading mid rd picks. Only 11 picks the last 2 years. Having more picks is only good for our scouts but restocking the shelves.

 

[ChrisCall]

There's a reason Nilsson was nominated for rookie of the year.
Going to be interesting to see how good he can be.

 

[SprDaVE]

There is no "right way" to develop prospects.

I know with Chicago and Detroit, they have a back log of guys who could play in the NHL, and have had to hold back Nyquist for example due to cap/roster spots, you don't want to be in that scenario.

But I also don't want to rush players either.

It's pretty simple. If a player shows he can consistently play at the NHL level, you keep him there. If he doesn't show he can do it on a nightly basis, you send him down wherever he can go to keep progressing.

If anything, the Leafs have shown the ability not rush prospects in recent years. Kadri spent a lot of time in Junior and the AHL refining his game and it worked out pretty good, even when he actually played really well as a 18 year old in training camp. Rielly was sent down as a 18 year old top prospect to keep working on his game, all though the lockout helped out there. Gardiner spent time in the AHL even after playing well for long stretches. Frattin was the same as well.

Most of our young players went through the system and were slowly brought up.

I think we have actually been taking it too slow with some of our prospects. Ashton should have been up with the Leafs the whole year. D'Amigo proved he belonged as well. There's no way McLaren and Orr should have been playing over them... no ****ing way.

 

[topched]

It's pretty simple. If a player shows he can consistently play at the NHL level, you keep him there. If he doesn't show he can do it on a nightly basis, you send him down wherever he can go to keep progressing.

If anything, the Leafs have shown the ability not rush prospects in recent years. Kadri spent a lot of time in Junior and the AHL refining his game and it worked out pretty good, even when he actually played really well as a 18 year old in training camp. Rielly was sent down as a 18 year old top prospect to keep working on his game, all though the lockout helped out there. Gardiner spent time in the AHL even after playing well for long stretches. Frattin was the same as well.

Most of our young players went through the system and were slowly brought up.

I think we have actually been taking it too slow with some of our prospects. Ashton should have been up with the Leafs the whole year. D'Amigo proved he belong as well. There's no way McLaren and Orr should have been playing over them... no ****ing way.

I agree with you here, it's a lot on Randy and partly on Mgmt.

Why were playing guys like Trevor Smith, Troy Bodie and Jared Smithson over young guys is beyond me. Especially because they were providing just as much.

It's a combination of lack of trust in young players by the coach and a misconception that in order to win we need to have veteran experience

 

[FreeBird]

With Finn, Rupert, Brown, Loov, Nilsson joining the Marlies next year, some of our lesser prospects may be moved out.

I view this as a positive, we now have players on the cusp of making the big club. This is what Burke rebuilt, and I hope Nonis continues. Nonis has a bad habit of trading mid rd picks. Only 11 picks the last 2 years. Having more picks is only good for our scouts but restocking the shelves.

Shanahan must be bringing in some new scouts from winning organizations, some thing Burke never did. You would think a team that trades more draft picks than any one else would try and get some of the best ufa prospects from College hockey, we got Bozak then nothing since then. With our Charismatic GM Nonis that should have been easily done.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Shanahan must be bringing in some new scouts from winning organizations, some thing Burke never did. You would think a team that trades more draft picks than any one else would try and get some of the best ufa prospects from College hockey, we got Bozak then nothing since then. With our Charismatic GM Nonis that should have been easily done.

Tampa got another good Tyler for free also, Tyler Johnson. There are ways to improve your team without burning assets.

 

[FreeBird]

Tampa got another good Tyler for free also, Tyler Johnson. There are ways to improve your team without burning assets.

Philly has also done well with College UFA's.