Friedman: Marian Hossa will not play in 2017-18; Career in jeopardy

[Starat327]

That's all I'm saying.

I honestly wouldn't want the Hawks to fleece the NHL, and would be pissed at it too. But if he can't physically play, and I truly believe he can't... and they still try to screw over the Hawks... there's going to be an internal war between the NHL and NHLPA the likes of which we haven't seen before.

In the meantime, I welcome the extra cap money, and possibility of making moves. At the same time... Hossa is one of my favorite players of all time, and my favorite Hawk through this era. I'm gonna miss him playing badly, and the Hawks are going to miss him, badly. Such an absolute beast on the ice. I've never seen anyone do some of the things he does. This video just got shared on the Hawks board. So good at so many things...

Agreed. Great player no doubt, certainly don't wish any ill-will on him. Hawks will miss him next year, for sure.

The concern I have is "can he" vs "does he want to given circumstances". If the NHL is ok with it, I will assume they did their due diligence. But if they find that he can play and force him to play or retire (i.e - not LTIR eligible), i'd be ok with that as well.

 

[Off Sides]

If a player is under contract, and has an injury that prevents them from playing the game, and fulfilling that contract, then yes, they can go on LTIR if the injury will keep them off the ice 24 days, or 10 games. This applies to all players, all teams, and all contracts in the NHL. It's not a matter of wanting to do it. It's a matter of the player not physically being ABLE to do it.

Take... Pronger for instance. Blurred vision/loss of vision. Does he want to play? Sure. Can he? No. He'd get destroyed/hurt worse.

Take Hossa. Do you think he wants to hang em up when he had a 26 goal season at 38 years old? And was probably the 2nd or 3rd best player on the Hawks all season? Very doubtful. He's in the kind of physical shape and has the fitness level to play well into his 40's, very similar to Jagr. But if he's physically unable to perform his duties under his contract, he's entitled to the LTIR designation. Which allows him to continue to collect his pay from his contract for his livelihood. It's the way things work. No different than you getting hurt at work and collecting short or long-term disability benefits, if part of your benefits package.

Then how about M Staal he had an serious eye injury, I'm sure blurry vision and whatnot included.

In Hossa's case it did not keep him off the ice yet now all of a sudden it does?

What I am trying to state is there is no verification in the process. It's based on how a player feels. If he feels he can continue to play or not.

When there is financial incentives for him or his team to not feel like he can continue to play, I think that raises some concerns within the process.

 

[chethejet]

The fundamental problem is the benefit derived by keeping the AAV far below the true market in order to maximize the roster. In a salary cap league, you have to have some back end mechanism to limit or recover that artificial benefit. the Hawks gained 16 million in cap space for Hossa and now want to gain another 21 million with a 4 year LTIR while on the hook for only 4 million in salary. Does anyone think Hossa is coming back? So recapture has to be a cost to a franchise, call it dead money, for contracts structured to keep the AAV much lower by term and yearly payouts. Plus those avoidance contracts were deemed not in the best interest of the NHL competitive balance formula. I would say the same for Crosby's contract as well. But the Hawks have been for more aggressive in cap manipulations than all other franchises. Hossa may not be able to pay due to meds, but if he can't, Hawks can't get a pass again to gain another benefit.

 

[ChiHawks10]

 

[ChiHawks10]

Then how about M Staal he had an serious eye injury, I'm sure blurry vision and whatnot included.

In Hossa's case it did not keep him off the ice yet now all of a sudden it does?

What I am trying to state is there is no verification in the process. It's based on how a player feels. If he feels he can continue to play or not.

When there is financial incentives for him or his team to not feel like he can continue to play, I think that raises some concerns within the process.

Doctor evaluations. Tests. Including the previously released information that he had blood tests done every few weeks. Physical examination. What do you mean there's no verification?

If Staal had blurry vision and/or loss of vision, then a doctor likely wouldn't clear him to play. And he would remain on LTIR...

This is going completely over your head apparently...


Do you think that Hossa just says "I'm physically unable to perform my job, and fulfill my contract." and everyone just shrugs and says "Ok, bud. Have a good life."

 

[ChiHawks10]

The fundamental problem is the benefit derived by keeping the AAV far below the true market in order to maximize the roster. In a salary cap league, you have to have some back end mechanism to limit or recover that artificial benefit. the Hawks gained 16 million in cap space for Hossa and now want to gain another 21 million with a 4 year LTIR while on the hook for only 4 million in salary. Does anyone think Hossa is coming back? So recapture has to be a cost to a franchise, call it dead money, for contracts structured to keep the AAV much lower by term and yearly payouts. Plus those avoidance contracts were deemed not in the best interest of the NHL competitive balance formula. I would say the same for Crosby's contract as well. But the Hawks have been for more aggressive in cap manipulations than all other franchises. Hossa may not be able to pay due to meds, but if he can't, Hawks can't get a pass again to gain another benefit.

The contracts were "retroactively" ruled bad... and a cap recapture penalty added AFTER the NHL had already approved the contracts... Are you not understanding this? How can you punish a team for that? Particularly if the player can't actually play... to fulfill his contract. It was stupid of the NHL to do it. And now the LTIR is being used to bypass said recapture, when it's a legitimate reason, and people are pissy about it? Get over it. And numerous teams have done similar things going back a long time... not just the Hawks. I think your bias is clouding things up for you.

I swear... I get so tired of saying the same things to people over and over again...

Queue the typical "You're a homer, of course you'll defend the Hawks and Hossa." argument.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Good to get some additional info on this.

 

[Off Sides]

Doctor evaluations. Tests. Including the previously released information that he had blood tests done every few weeks. Physical examination. What do you mean there's no verification?

If Staal had blurry vision and/or loss of vision, then a doctor likely wouldn't clear him to play. And he would remain on LTIR...

This is going completely over your head apparently...


Do you think that Hossa just says "I'm physically unable to perform my job, and fulfill my contract." and everyone just shrugs and says "Ok, bud. Have a good life."

No I think it possible, note possible, Hossa was willing to play with whatever ailed him until the salary no longer made sense to do so.

Which many other players could likely do as well. They all have had tests, injuries, surgery, maintenance days off, throughout their careers which would corroborate why they can no longer play.

 

[ChiHawks10]

No I think it possible, note possible, Hossa was willing to play with whatever ailed him until the salary no longer made sense to do so.

Which many other players could likely do as well. They all have had tests, injuries, surgery, maintenance days off, throughout their careers which would corroborate why they can no longer play.

You are stretching so far on that you're gonna snap in two...

Yes... it's possible that he was willing to try and play through it for more money at the time... and now made the decision to not attempt it anymore as he deems it "not worth it". That's entirely his choice/decision if it's the case. If doctors/evaluations deem him physically unable to perform his job as a professional hockey player, then what's the damn problem with his decision to say "To hell with it, I'm in too much pain, and it's too stressful/irritating for me and my family, I'm done. I'm not going to go through this anymore."

Other than the typical response I expect from people "I don't like it, it's not fair to my favorite NHL team!" nonsense, obviously.

 

[TOGuy14]

Reading all the quotes it seems like this is a problem for Hossa, but one he has managed to deal with for years now.

It seems like he just doesn't want to deal with it for only $1M per season anymore. League shouldn't allow him on LTIR if that is the case.

 

[NickLidstrom]

Yes but why cant anyone understand...maybe its worth it to him to struggle through it for 5 million but not for 1 million..

If you had a job that physically hurt you wouldnt it make a difference if you made minimum wage or 35 bucks an hour.

Sure. But LTIR isn't for that, it's for players that legitimately can't play anymore. He should straight up retire in that case

 

[Off Sides]

You are stretching so far on that you're gonna snap in two...

Yes... it's possible that he was willing to try and play through it for more money at the time... and now made the decision to not attempt it anymore as he deems it "not worth it". That's entirely his choice/decision if it's the case. If doctors/evaluations deem him physically unable to perform his job as a professional hockey player, then what's the damn problem with his decision to say "To hell with it, I'm in too much pain, and it's too stressful/irritating for me and my family, I'm done. I'm not going to go through this anymore."

Other than the typical response I expect from people "I don't like it, it's not fair to my favorite NHL team!" nonsense, obviously.

So that should be the definition of what constitutes whether a player should retire or should go onto LTIR?

If that is the case why not many other players who also play through whatever is ailing them? Would they all have legitimate reasons to finally also say, I'm done but I am not going to retire.

 

[ChiHawks10]

So that should be the definition of what constitutes whether a player should retire or should go onto LTIR?

If that is the case why not many other players who also play through whatever is ailing them? Would they all have legitimate reasons to finally also say, I'm done but I am not going to retire.

Maybe an advancement in medicine is made and he's willing to come back after this season? IDK. Maybe he is only deciding to take one season off and not more than that? IDK. I'm not Marian Hossa, or part of the Hawks organization. Neither are any of the people spouting off with speculation and crybaby antics of "cheating". Hossa has never said he's completely done for his career. Never once. Everything points to him sitting this season out. But nothing has said that he's done for good. All announcements stated "Marian Hossa will miss the 2017-2018 season". Period.

 

[Off Sides]

Maybe an advancement in medicine is made and he's willing to come back after this season? IDK. Maybe he is only deciding to take one season off and not more than that? IDK. I'm not Marian Hossa, or part of the Hawks organization. Neither are any of the people spouting off with speculation and crybaby antics of "cheating". Hossa has never said he's completely done for his career. Never once. Everything points to him sitting this season out. But nothing has said that he's done for good. All announcements stated "Marian Hossa will miss the 2017-2018 season". Period.

Not trying to say I have the answers, I honestly have never seen any LTIR rules that define what qualifies and what does not other than games missed or games expected to miss or days.

It just seems like a gray area within the CBA and you are correct, in the name of fairness it seems like all the teams should be operating under the same rules and I'm not really sure they are.

I guess overall if things are not nefarious, great, but if they are, and I don't know why it would be odd to think GM are trying to take advantage of any grey areas, I'd rather every team be able to use that mechanism instead of just the few who believe they can use it.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Sure. But LTIR isn't for that, it's for players that legitimately can't play anymore. He should straight up retire in that case

No, retirement is for players that legitimately can't play anymore ever again.

LTIR is for players that can't play for an extended period of time. A month. A year. Five years, if that's what it takes.

And before you say "If Hossa can't physically play anymore, he should retire so the Hawks get hit with the cap recapture penalty." think of the Prongers, Robidas, Hortons, etc. of the world whose teams did the same thing with them even though they'll never play again. They should just straight up retire too! Especially Pronger, who was still an active player, on an active contract, collecting a salary from his team, and at the same time collecting an NHL employee's salary, and now, just as his actual active player's contract expires, will be collecting a team executive's salary...

I'll go out on a limb and say most people are just mad that the Hawks will be able to, yet again, maneuver out of cap hell. Some of your bias towards the Hawks simply for being successful, and wanting to see them fall back to the dregs of the NHL is simply ridiculous. And with the majority of those pissed about this, that's exactly what it is. Don't try to tell me it's not.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Not trying to say I have the answers, I honestly have never seen any LTIR rules that define what qualifies and what does not other than games missed or games expected to miss or days.

It just seems like a gray area within the CBA and your are correct, in the name of fairness it seems like all the teams should be operating under the same rules and I'm not really sure they are.

I guess overall if things are not nefarious, great, but if they are, and I don't know why it would be odd to think GM are trying to take advantage of any grey areas, I'd rather every team be able to use that mechanism instead of just the few who believe they can use it.

Neither am I, honestly. Just defending my favorite team/organization, and one of my favorite players from those spouting off "Cheating, Fake, Made up illness, etc."

All teams can, though. All teams have LTIR available for their use... if legitimate reasons are there for the player to go on LTIR. Which, I believe truly does exist for Hossa.

 

[dkollidas]

Sucks for Hossa. Good guy and a good player.

 

[CPHawksFan]

Sure. But LTIR isn't for that, it's for players that legitimately can't play anymore. He should straight up retire in that case

Hossa never said he wasn't ever going to play again...he said he is not going to play the 2017-2018 season. Who knows, maybe in the next year they come out with a new drug to treat his condition that doesn't come with the same side effects as the one he is currently taking and he decides to play again.

 

[91Fedorov]

Everyone should have seen this coming a mile away. This contract was designed to circumvent the salary cap. Everyone could see that he would look to "retire" once it dropped down to 1M. And now it all happens once the Hawks have cap trouble. Color me shocked. I hope, at the very least, the league makes him formally retire. I think Chicago should also be penalized some draft picks for this.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Poor Hossa. Hope to see him back before the contract is up but with his condition, who knows. Hopefully the race for a cure picks up. In the meantime, we'll all just have to sit back and watch this play out over the next 4 years. If it turns out he couldn't come back, we'll know 4 years from now and then Hossa can have a proper retirement, number retired and then join the organization in a different role if he wants.

 

[NickLidstrom]

No, retirement is for players that legitimately can't play anymore ever again.

LTIR is for players that can't play for an extended period of time. A month. A year. Five years, if that's what it takes.
And before you say "If Hossa can't physically play anymore, he should retire so the Hawks get hit with the cap recapture penalty." think of the Prongers, Robidas, Hortons, etc. of the world whose teams did the same thing with them even though they'll never play again. They should just straight up retire too! Especially Pronger, who was still an active player, on an active contract, collecting a salary from his team, and at the same time collecting an NHL employee's salary, and now, just as his actual active player's contract expires, will be collecting a team executive's salary...

I'll go out on a limb and say most people are just mad that the Hawks will be able to, yet again, maneuver out of cap hell. Some of your bias towards the Hawks simply for being successful, and wanting to see them fall back to the dregs of the NHL is simply ridiculous. And with the majority of those pissed about this, that's exactly what it is. Don't try to tell me it's not.

Dude, what? I WILL try to tell you it's not, because you sound really petty right now. What I hate is that the only team punished so far is the Devils. The NHL ****ed over the Devils(rightfully so, in my opinion) and then proceeded to, like you said, let every other team get away with it. No consistency whatsoever. Philadelphia wasn't even successful, so it's not just being 'jealous of success', it's that the league thinks we are all stupid. All those guys SHOULD retire. They basically are already anyway. And what was your point with saying

No, retirement is for players that legitimately can't play anymore ever again.

LTIR is for players that can't play for an extended period of time. A month. A year. Five years, if that's what it takes.

? If Hossa isn't planning on ever playing again due to an issue big enough to go on LTIR, how on earth does that not describe your definition of retirement?

 

[NickLidstrom]

Hossa never said he wasn't ever going to play again...he said he is not going to play the 2017-2018 season. Who knows, maybe in the next year they come out with a new drug to treat his condition that doesn't come with the same side effects as the one he is currently taking and he decides to play again.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think he is ever coming back. I could be wrong of course, but I think this is more about the salary then anything else and so do a lot of other people.

 

[CPHawksFan]

Everyone should have seen this coming a mile away. This contract was designed to circumvent the salary cap. Everyone could see that he would look to "retire" once it dropped down to 1M. And now it all happens once the Hawks have cap trouble. Color me shocked. I hope, at the very least, the league makes him formally retire. I think Chicago should also be penalized some draft picks for this.

Yes they should have, but even the NHL itself didn't. They approved the contract lol.

 

[CPHawksFan]

I think you are fooling yourself if you think he is ever coming back. I could be wrong of course, but I think this is more about the salary then anything else and so do a lot of other people.

Agree 100%

 

[ChiHawks10]

Dude, what? I WILL try to tell you it's not, because you sound really petty right now. What I hate is that the only team punished so far is the Devils. The NHL ****ed over the Devils(rightfully so, in my opinion) and then proceeded to, like you said, let every other team get away with it. No consistency whatsoever. Philadelphia wasn't even successful, so it's not just being 'jealous of success', it's that the league thinks we are all stupid. All those guys SHOULD retire. They basically are already anyway. And what was your point with saying ? If Hossa isn't planning on ever playing again due to an issue big enough to go on LTIR, how on earth does that not describe your definition of retirement?

Petty? That people are pissed off at the Hawk's success, and want to see them hit with the recapture for "cheating" "circumventing" or all the other ridiculousness they constantly spew? Yeah... not petty. Honest. Because it's all Hawks fans hear constantly on these boards. "Waaaaaaaaaaah the Keith contract.". "Waaaaaaaaaah the Hossa contract." People on here love to cry about the Hawks and their "cheating".

LTIR is for players who can't play for a minimum of 10 games, or 24 days. Anything over that. Could be a month, 6 months, 2 years. It's not intended to be used for players to "retire" on. And the Hawks didn't start that trend. Teams are using it as a loophole as a big F U to the league because the league approved contracts and then went back and fabricated a rule making it retroactive to punish said contracts that they already approved. That's it.

And what do you mean what is the point? Hossa never said he doesn't plan on playing again. He said he's going to miss the 2017-2018 season with a medical condition, at which point the Hawks are going to LTIR for the season, I would imagine. I would assume they'll check on his status after the season, and then see what happens.

I have no idea if he plans on never playing again, or will again after this season, or in two seasons, or what... And neither do you. Everything is just speculation. The point remains... if Hossa has a documented ailment that prevents him from playing this coming season... the Hawks can LTIR him for the season without repercussions. Period. End of story.