Confirmed with Link: Marco Kasper joining Grand Rapids for remainder of season (Recalled to DET 03.30.23)

[norrisnick]

Weaponizing cap space implies that you are using a resource to make your team better outside the scope of the player you are acquiring. What you are proposing actually makes the team worse outside the scope of the player you are acquiring. You limit the cap available to other players, you make a contract more immovable, you limit the return you can get, you increase the actual cost paid in salary or in retention, you set new bars for negotiation against internally with your own free agents.

You never approach free agency with the intention of winning a bidding war at any cost.

Leafs during the summer of Tavares say hold my beer...

 

[lilidk]

If Veleno became a Draper-like player, he could have a long term role on the team. He would have to become that shut down forward who has high FO% and score 10-15 goals per season and be able to play against the opposition's top line.

Not sure he has that ability.

He does, he has everything to become Draper like. He has wheels and physicality

 

[SCD]

He does, he has everything to become Draper like. He has wheels and physicality

Draper's level of toughness and compete will be hard to match.

 

[SantosHalper]

Weaponizing cap space implies that you are using a resource to make your team better outside the scope of the player you are acquiring. What you are proposing actually makes the team worse outside the scope of the player you are acquiring. You limit the cap available to other players, you make a contract more immovable, you limit the return you can get, you increase the actual cost paid in salary or in retention, you set new bars for negotiation against internally with your own free agents.

You never approach free agency with the intention of winning a bidding war at any cost.

Acquiring a proven top-6 center doesn't make the team worse. If i have 30 million in cap space, how i would limit the cap for other players if i offer 2-3 million over the asking price? And we are talking about a 2-year deal. Every contract is moveable, it might just require a third party, but idea here is that the player helps my team in to the playoffs. So contract doesn't have to be moved at any point, because i need that player in playoffs as well. I don't set bars here, im using the tools what i have to improve the team at the moment and i have prospects to replace him in the near future.

Hypothetical situation, player X is looking for a 4 years and 20 million. Team 1 offers 4 years and 18 million. Team 2 offers 4 years and 19,2 million. Team 3 offers 4 years and 20,8 million. Then i come in and i have 30 million in cap space. I offer 2 years and 15 million, where's the downside? In short it's called overpaying but since it has a negative clang and weaponizing the cap space has more positive clang, i don't understand why the term can't be used here. Im using the massive cap space to improve the team, not draft pick stock.

 

[lilidk]

Draper's level of toughness and compete will be hard to match.

Well, just give him similar linemates , then we'll see.

 

[newfy]

Draper's level of toughness and compete will be hard to match.

In todays softer NHL, you dont actually need to have that level of toughness or compete to be a modern Kris Draper though.

Veleno shows flashes of it every now and then, but it might be time he embraces that role completely

 

[Hen Kolland]

Acquiring a proven top-6 center doesn't make the team worse. If i have 30 million in cap space, how i would limit the cap for other players if i offer 2-3 million over the asking price? And we are talking about a 2-year deal. Every contract is moveable, it might just require a third party, but idea here is that the player helps my team in to the playoffs. So contract doesn't have to be moved at any point, because i need that player in playoffs as well. I don't set bars here, im using the tools what i have to improve the team at the moment and i have prospects to replace him in the near future.

Hypothetical situation, player X is looking for a 4 years and 20 million. Team 1 offers 4 years and 18 million. Team 2 offers 4 years and 19,2 million. Team 3 offers 4 years and 20,8 million. Then i come in and i have 30 million in cap space. I offer 2 years and 15 million, where's the downside? In short it's called overpaying but since it has a negative clang and weaponizing the cap space has more positive clang, i don't understand why the term can't be used here. Im using the massive cap space to improve the team, not draft pick stock.

You just gave Copp a 5 year, $5.6 million per year deal at 26 coming off a two year stretch at a 59-60 point pace. Then turn around and give O'Reilly $7.5 million per year at 31 after a two year stretch at 55 points per game to play essentially the same role at a lesser level and call it an upgrade to the team?

When you have to negotiate deals for Seider and Raymond and Rasmussen and Veleno and Berggren within the next two offseasons? Plus find a goalie to replace Ned/Hellberg, plus options to replace Suter, Perron, Kubalik? When you need to find ways to tangibly improve, not plug another hole?

What happens if Rasmussen comes in next year and continues his improvement we saw prior to being injured? His last 17 games this year he had 12 points, could have easily had more, and was one of the more influential players on the roster. Say he comes back next year and has a 55 point season and needs a new deal. Are you giving him $6.5m for 5 years? And are you ready if Kasper comes up behind him to be a 60+ point center to give him $8+?

Do yourself a favor, go back and look at the Larkin contract and that entire negotiation process and tell me if you think Steve Yzerman is about to go overspend by $2.5 million on any player, at any term, by choice without getting some additional benefit.

 

[norrisnick]

The trick here would be to see what Edm or LA or CGY are willing to give up to move on from their goalie clusterf***s. Campbell or Markstrom or Peterson could be serviceable tandem buddies for Husso while Cossa matures.

That's weaponizing cap space.

 

[PullHard]

The trick here would be to see what Edm or LA or CGY are willing to give up to move on from their goalie clusterf***s. Campbell or Markstrom or Peterson could be serviceable tandem buddies for Husso while Cossa matures.

That's weaponizing cap space.

I'm absolutely onboard with bending over LA or Edmonton to take on Petersen or Campbell

 

[SantosHalper]

You just gave Copp a 5 year, $5.6 million per year deal at 26 coming off a two year stretch at a 59-60 point pace. Then turn around and give O'Reilly $7.5 million per year at 31 after a two year stretch at 55 points per game to play essentially the same role at a lesser level and call it an upgrade to the team?

O'Reilly is better player than Copp, any day in the week and Copp got a long term deal.

When you have to negotiate deals for Seider and Raymond and Rasmussen and Veleno and Berggren within the next two offseasons? Plus find a goalie to replace Ned/Hellberg, plus options to replace Suter, Perron, Kubalik? When you need to find ways to tangibly improve, not plug another hole?

Bridge deals to Seider, Raymond, Berggren and Veleno. Ras will be reviewed after the season. Kasper and Mazur will replace Perron and Kubalik, Kasper replaces O'Reilly as a center after 2024-2025 season. After signing O'Reilly(7,5), Killorn(6,0), Mayfield(3,0), Suter(1,8-2,2), Chiasson(0,9) Veleno(1,2) there is still roughly 10 million in cap space to sign a backup goalie and 7th D.

What happens if Rasmussen comes in next year and continues his improvement we saw prior to being injured? His last 17 games this year he had 12 points, could have easily had more, and was one of the more influential players on the roster. Say he comes back next year and has a 55 point season and needs a new deal. Are you giving him $6.5m for 5 years? And are you ready if Kasper comes up behind him to be a 60+ point center to give him $8+?

Brigde deal to Kasper and if Ras keeps scoring giving him Perron's money transfers to him and getting rid off Fabbri opens more space.

tell me if you think Steve Yzerman is about to go overspend by $2.5 million on any player, at any term,

Where the Red Wings are the moment, yes, i would believe that Yzerman would overpay to improve the team. But only for short term deals.

 

[roman star]

has anybody posted the play of kasper vs leafs around the 10 minute mark of 3rd where simmons was penalized and kasper crashed into end boards ?

 

[Hen Kolland]

O'Reilly is better player than Copp, any day in the week and Copp got a long term deal.

Bridge deals to Seider, Raymond, Berggren and Veleno. Ras will be reviewed after the season. Kasper and Mazur will replace Perron and Kubalik, Kasper replaces O'Reilly as a center after 2024-2025 season. After signing O'Reilly(7,5), Killorn(6,0), Mayfield(3,0), Suter(1,8-2,2), Chiasson(0,9) Veleno(1,2) there is still roughly 10 million in cap space to sign a backup goalie and 7th D.

Brigde deal to Kasper and if Ras keeps scoring giving him Perron's money transfers to him and getting rid off Fabbri opens more space.

Where the Red Wings are the moment, yes, i would believe that Yzerman would overpay to improve the team. But only for short term deals.

You don’t seem to really understand asset and cap management and it would be better if we dropped this and leave it to the actual professionals.

Something to chew on, ROR isn’t the same player that you remember. He’s not that good. He’s well past his prime. Copp is better, as hard as it may be to believe

 

[Oddbob]

You don’t seem to really understand asset and cap management and it would be better if we dropped this and leave it to the actual professionals.

Something to chew on, ROR isn’t the same player that you remember. He’s not that good. He’s well past his prime. Copp is better, as hard as it may be to believe

No offence, but how is Copp better? ROR even this year had almost the same pts in a down year, is better defensively most of the time and is better in the faceoff circle.

 

[Ezekial]

I'd much rather have Copp signed the next 3 year than ROR, just my opinion.

I think next year coming in without the core surgery so he's ready for camp and a healthy Ras, I see them having a nice year together.

 

[Geezer WC]

In this scenario:

Kubalik-Larkin-Raymond
Kasper-Copp-Perron

If you go this route, are you OK with Veleno being your 3C? That is the only issue I have with putting Kasper and Copp on the same line. Ideally I think one is your 2C and one is your 3C.

In this scenario, I wonder what Lowry would cost if the Jets decide to blow it up? It's a good contract.

 

[dalem177]

I'd much rather have Copp signed the next 3 year than ROR, just my opinion.

I think next year coming in without the core surgery so he's ready for camp and a healthy Ras, I see them having a nice year together.

I'm dumb as hell, but I really want to see the team that almost was THIS year kick some boo-tay next year.

If Fabbs can stay healthy for a season, Ras mooses around, and Copp, Perron, Kubastank, and the rest of the NCOs can support D-boss, they can rotate up-and-in the green talent waiting to burst out. I think it can be really good.

BUT.

I don't know from goalies. And I think we have some weakness in goal for a full season's effort.

 

[norrisnick]

In this scenario, I wonder what Lowry would cost if the Jets decide to blow it up? It's a good contract.

Is it? Lowry's what you'd get if you smashed Suter and Erne together. I wouldn't give up any assets for anything that's not a needle mover. And Pius Erne isn't a needle mover.

 

[Gyldenlove]

Is it too much to ask that we field a 2nd line of Raymond, Kasper and Bedard next year?

 

[SantosHalper]

You don’t seem to really understand asset and cap management and it would be better if we dropped this and leave it to the actual professionals.

Something to chew on, ROR isn’t the same player that you remember. He’s not that good. He’s well past his prime. Copp is better, as hard as it may be to believe

I understand asset and cap management completely, the thing here is that you don't like my asset and cap management. Which is perfectly fine, no problem at all. My opinion still is that Kasper and Mazur starts in GR, and Yzerman acquires top-6 center and a winger. From the free agency or via trade, time will tell.

Copp is not a better player than O'Reilly, not now and not ever. There is not a single proof of evidence that can prove otherwise, and you don't seem to remember that O'Reilly was injured this year.

 

[Perfect Human]

Is it too much to ask that we field a 2nd line of Raymond, Kasper and Bedard next year?

We will know on May 8th.

 

[Hen Kolland]

No offence, but how is Copp better? ROR even this year had almost the same pts in a down year, is better defensively most of the time and is better in the faceoff circle.

You need to spend more time actually watching ROR play. He's not the same player that won the Selke and Conn Smythe. He looks like time is starting to wear on him. Pace isn't friendly to his game. Toronto is actually sheltering him at this point. TOI is down, PK usage is down, tough matchups aren't being given to him at the same rate. He's still a useful player, but I'll bet the narrative on ROR is very different in the next year or so. Whatever team ponies up 3+ years for his twilight years isn't going to be thrilled.

As for Copp, recently, the production gap the past two years has been negligible. Copp came into a new team off of a core muscle surgery and limited training only to have consistently taken the tough matchups for a worse team, is the highest utilized PK forward (a close second overall to Seider) on the team, and given a pittance of a role on the second powerplay unit that had plenty of bumps and struggles in its limited time.

Copp at this stage shoulders more responsibility that leaves him exposed and available for easy criticism because it doesn't easily appear on the stat sheet.

I understand asset and cap management completely, the thing here is that you don't like my asset and cap management. Which is perfectly fine, no problem at all. My opinion still is that Kasper and Mazur starts in GR, and Yzerman acquires top-6 center and a winger. From the free agency or via trade, time will tell.

Copp is not a better player than O'Reilly, not now and not ever. There is not a single proof of evidence that can prove otherwise, and you don't seem to remember that O'Reilly was injured this year.

Copp will never be better than the best version of O'Reilly. At this stage, O'Reilly is a far cry from the player you seem to believe he still is.

 

[jaster]

Red Wings have 30 million in cap space, it can be weaponize to to sign O'Reilly with a short term deal. Why every expects that O'Reilly has to be signed +4 year deal? He's a prizefighter, give him enough money and he will be eating from our hands. 2 years, 15 or 16 million.

Oof. That's the opposite of weaponizing cap space. ROR is on the decline. That's a massive overpayment that could help preclude Yzerman from actually weaponizing cap space in the future.

The idea of overpaying on a short-term deal is an idea that gets thrown around by fans a lot, as if it's some kind of sneaky way to find value, but it usually isn't and it just doesn't happen very frequently, for good reason. First, you're potentially throwing the salary structure and future negotiations on your own team out of whack. Second, it carries much more risk than gets acknowledged; if ROR bombs, he becomes an immovable contract (unless you allow another team to weaponize their cap space to take him off your hands).

Signing ROR is a bad idea, no matter which way you slice it. The only way it makes sense is if ROR has a stroke and signs for short-term and a low cap hit. But even then, it only makes sense until you realize you've signed a stroke victim and have to insert him into an NHL lineup when he can't even use his right arm and leg.

 

[jaster]

Copp is not a better player than O'Reilly, not now and not ever.

ROR is 3.5 years older than Copp. If Copp isn't better right now, he will be soon.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Signing ROR is a bad idea, no matter which way you slice it. The only way it makes sense is if ROR has a stroke and signs for short-term and a low cap hit. But even then, it only makes sense until you realize you've signed a stroke victim and have to insert him into an NHL lineup when he can't even use his right arm and leg.

At this point in your career, you would need O'Reilly on a Perron deal for it to be a plus value, and I just don't think O'Reilly is ready to be Perron yet.

O'Reilly seems like the kind of guy who will sign a modest deal on a playoff team that he thinks will be in the playoffs for the rest of his career, not someone looking to join a longer term window. Like with all their expiring deals, New Jersey as a middle 6 center that can be flanked with young blood like Mercer and Bratt. Then the top line is Nico, Hughes and Palat. Something along those lines.

 

[jaster]

At this point in your career, you would need O'Reilly on a Perron deal for it to be a plus value, and I just don't think O'Reilly is ready to be Perron yet.

O'Reilly seems like the kind of guy who will sign a modest deal on a playoff team that he thinks will be in the playoffs for the rest of his career, not someone looking to join a longer term window. Like with all their expiring deals, New Jersey as a middle 6 center that can be flanked with young blood like Mercer and Bratt. Then the top line is Nico, Hughes and Palat. Something along those lines.

This too. Even if ROR preferred a 2-year, $16M deal over a 3x5 or 4x4 (which I'm not sure he even would), the preference has to be completely negated when you consider the rest of that comparison is him playing for a rebuilding team vs a contending team.