Marc Bergevin - Would I lie to you Edition

[Harry22]

Several of us, including myself, laid a plan of action years ago that would have resulted in a better team, which we know as we now have hindsight. Bergevin mostly made the wrong decisions and that's why we're where we are now.

This isn't PS4 bro, you cannot acquire top players via trades, you need to draft!

*points to multiple top 6 players traded in the last 3 years (including centers) and the bad drafting by Bergevin and Co*

Oh.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is what I am talking about. Very well said! Firing a GM and repeating the process every 5 years (+/-) is not the answer.

Nobody is suggesting we systematically replace our GM every five years. But five years is long enough to see what a GM is all about. He's taken a good young core and destroyed it to the point where we're talking about rebuilding five years later. That is unforgiveable. He should be removed ASAP, especially if we're going to start a new rebuild.

Our GM has made mistakes and you would have to be a fool to not realize this. However, our GM is not an idiot and he has the capacity to learn and adapt. He has shown he can be patient and I want to see how his crop of prospects turn out in the next few years while we rid ourselves of this soft forward group and pick up a key pieces here and there. I don't believe we are doomed and I feel we are in the mix if we keep improving our age 25 and under core while we stock pile picks. This is the key to our success but we really do need to accept this year as a off year. Relieving the pressure to win will do wonders.

He's more than shown that he's in over his head. And it's not about "making mistakes" it's about having no plan. He said he was going to build through the draft when he got here. That alone was strange considering the young core we'd already drafted. Why the hell did we need to build through the draft?

Moreover, we've produced nothing in our farm system. For a guy who's going to build through the draft he doesn't have much to show for it. There's no reason to give him more time here. He can't be learning on the job and that's exactly what's happened.

It's not about making a rash decision either. He's been given five years and broken this team. It's about cutting your losses and moving onto something better.

There are posters on this forum who could've done a better job.

 

[OldCraig71]

I think beyond needing to improve the offense, we needed to diversify how we create offense. We need a different dynamic up front, we need more "oomph" up the middle of the ice IMO. We're losing the middle of the ice and that to me is where the game is played.

I have disagreed with many things you have written here over the years but right here you nailed it, it is the reason why we are not a serious threat to do anything more than just make the playoffs. We have had some outstanding pieces in other positions and they will mask the flaws but will never be able to get the team to the next level like a good number one and two center will do.

We had all the makings of a contender with Subban and Markov and Price and Pacioretty and with Galcheyuk and Gallagher on the way but he blew it and now we sit probably much worse off than we were in 2012. The only thing that killed this teams chance of being a legit contender was a terrible GM and that is one title that Bergevin surely lives up to.

 

[417]

I have disagreed with many things you have written here over the years but right here you nailed it, it is the reason why we are not a serious threat to do anything more than just make the playoffs. We have had some outstanding pieces in other positions and they will mask the flaws but will never be able to get the team to the next level like a good number one and two center will do.

We had all the makings of a contender with Subban and Markov and Price and Pacioretty and with Galcheyuk and Gallagher on the way but he blew it and now we sit probably much worse off than we were in 2012. The only thing that killed this teams chance of being a legit contender was a terrible GM and that is one title that Bergevin surely lives up to.

Perhaps now you can understand why I didn't prioritize wanting to open up the vault for Radulov.

 

[Naslund]

Here's what our potential lineup could look like in a year or two if MB had made better decisions. No miracle was needed, just common sense. This lineup would be younger, faster, more talented, and cheaper.

Pacioretty-Danault-Radulov
Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Poehling-Debrincat
Byron-Hudon-Scherbak

Sergachev-Subban
Mete-Petry
Girard-Juulsen

Price
Lindgren

No aging Plekanec at 6 millions per yr
No Shaw at 4 millions for 5 yr
No Alzner for 4.5 millions for 5 yr.

Trading Plekanec at the deadline in the 2015-2016 season should have easily returned us a late-first in the 2016 draft. Maybe Sam Steel would be in our organization. Instead, with no pressure, MB resigned his vet for 12 millions over two yrs early in the season. Eller was more than ready to take the Plekanec job.

This would be a lineup that you could be rooting for, with a young defence anchored by an energetic guy like Subban. Guy Boucher could easily have been hired, bringing more energy and new ideas to our club.

None of these decisions needed great foresight or incredible luck (e.g. bending over backward a stupid GM in a trade). Passive decision making would have pretty much brought us this lineup. MB actively destroyed the Habs. He is the George W Bush of hockey GM. He works hard, has great intentions, but he is simply not very smart.

To fix the Habs now, which will likely take five years, these steps should be taken, in order:
1. Molson has to step aside as President.
2. Bring in a solid core of hockey people with credility, experience, smarts, deep attachment for the CH and REAL character to manage the club. Im thinking agroup of Gainey, Robinson, Lemaire, and Julien Brisebois. Not Roy!
3. Smartly start getting rid of your assets that are not going to be part of the rebuilt. Weber, Pacioretty, Price and Galchenyuk (sorry Galchenyuk fans, he needs to go. This guy is not winning anything ever).
4. Don't worry about the dead weight Shaw and Alzner. They will help us lose in the next few years. Unload them when we are ready to compete again.

 

[OnceWasNot]

Bergevin was hired in May of 2012. You are right he didn't trade any picks for short term success. Why should he? In May?
He inherited 9 picks in the three first rounds in his first 13 months.
Then trades away his 2nd pick in three straight drafts.
He then acquires two additional picks in the three first rounds of 2017. (You are right about the 2nds, my typo.)
For a net of minus 1 pick over three years.

2018 is irrelevant, we can have 0, 5, 15 picks, Bergevin may not even be the GM by then - we don't know.

Slice it any way you want.
If a GM stresses he should build through the draft he should acquire more quality picks than he trades away.
IMHO.

Marc Bergevin's idea of building through the draft: 6 top 60 picks in the last 4 years.

 

[OldCraig71]

Perhaps now you can understand why I didn't prioritize wanting to open up the vault for Radulov.

This is where we still disagree, giving Radulov money and term is not problem but spending 15 million per year on Plekanec, Alzner and Shaw is the problem and it has always been where Bergevin falls down. You have to pay for talent, every team does but we are in trouble by overpaying average/past prime players to big salaries and that makes them become key players on the team. We could replace all three of those guys for 6 million per year max and have plenty of money for Radulov and a center. We should also be in a position to have good young players coming from the AHL on league minimum contracts to fill our bottom 6 and move up when injuries dictate but we are not.

We should have already had the center ice issue conquered by the time Radulov comes along, like Dallas maybe. You need competitors like Radulov , you could stick him on any line and it instantly becomes better.

 

[Price is Wright]

The be patient and trust Bergevin types have turned quick into fatalist this was inevitable nothing could be done types eh?

 

[ArtPeur]

Here's what our potential lineup could look like in a year or two if MB had made better decisions. No miracle was needed, just common sense. This lineup would be younger, faster, more talented, and cheaper.

Pacioretty-Danault-Radulov
Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Poehling-Debrincat
Byron-Hudon-Scherbak

My main problem with that lineup is that we still have shit depth at center (or call it weak if you want). Strong wingers though. I'm not sold on your D neither, way too young. Most teams that have such young players in their backend usually have some trouble winning games. Columbus probably has one of the youngest D in the league but Bobvrosky saves their asses so many times

 

[417]

This is where we still disagree, giving Radulov money and term is not problem but spending 15 million per year on Plekanec, Alzner and Shaw is the problem and it has always been where Bergevin falls down. You have to pay for talent, every team does but we are in trouble by overpaying average/past prime players to big salaries and that makes them become key players on the team. We could replace all three of those guys for 6 million per year max and have plenty of money for Radulov and a center. We should also be in a position to have good young players coming from the AHL on league minimum contracts to fill our bottom 6 and move up when injuries dictate but we are not.

We don't really disagree... unfortunately, I can't go back in time to undo the Plekanec and Shaw contracts, he did them and has to deal with them.

If he didn't do those deal, then fine, overpay to keep Radulov...

But those deals made going after Radulov, IMO, a luxury, not a necessity (given we have bigger needs already previously discussed).

Maybe now folks can understand why I was advocating trading Plekanec before his last extension.

He should have already had the center ice issue conquered by the time Radulov comes along, like Dallas maybe. You need competitors like Radulov , you could stick him on any line and it instantly becomes better.

Yes, correct, he should fixed center ice the second he walked into the job, again, I argued that at the time vehemently. But he didn't.

And now, our need down the middle (and on D) is so drastic, that we can't afford the luxuries we should be able to afford (Radulov).

 

[Naslund]

My main problem with that lineup is that we still have **** depth at center (or call it weak if you want). Strong wingers though. I'm not sold on your D neither, way too young. Most teams that have such young players in their backend usually have some trouble winning games. Columbus probably has one of the youngest D in the league but Bobvrosky saves their asses so many times

They would have been a bit young at the beginning, but with their talents, they would have caught up. And a young group of defensemen learning the game should be buffered by a ten million dollar goalie...

 

[OldCraig71]

We don't really disagree... unfortunately, I can't go back in time to undo the Plekanec and Shaw contracts, he did them and has to deal with them.

If he didn't do those deal, then fine, overpay to keep Radulov...

But those deals made going after Radulov, IMO, a luxury, not a necessity (given we have bigger needs already previously discussed).

Maybe now folks can understand why I was advocating trading Plekanec before his last extension.



Yes, correct, he should fixed center ice the second he walked into the job, again, I argued that at the time vehemently. But he didn't.

And now, our need down the middle (and on D) is so drastic, that we can't afford the luxuries we should be able to afford (Radulov).

We agree on the center ice issue and our D is shambles but that too is of Bergevins own creation, he had one of the best scenarios of any new GM coming into an organisation but he was simply unqualified to take on the job. Anyway, I have beer league hockey in 20 minutes so, a discussion for another day, I have to go and be Guy Lafleur.

 

[Kriss E]

We don't really disagree... unfortunately, I can't go back in time to undo the Plekanec and Shaw contracts, he did them and has to deal with them.

If he didn't do those deal, then fine, overpay to keep Radulov...

But those deals made going after Radulov, IMO, a luxury, not a necessity (given we have bigger needs already previously discussed).

Maybe now folks can understand why I was advocating trading Plekanec before his last extension.



Yes, correct, he should fixed center ice the second he walked into the job, again, I argued that at the time vehemently. But he didn't.

And now, our need down the middle (and on D) is so drastic, that we can't afford the luxuries we should be able to afford (Radulov).

You sign Radu, which makes Galch-Patches way more expendable, because you have Radu-Drouin to fall back on.
You also talked about that ''oomph''..Radulov has that. Even if he's a winger, having that edge of competitiveness no matter the position is great. PK also had it.
This should have been done, as well as retaining Markov. Letting go of this long time Habs for no reason whatsoever is truly bizarre.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

There is some truth to Habs over turning GMs every 5 years.

The last long serving GM we had was Serge Savard. He was replaced by Houle, who was terrible and didn't last that long, although it seemed like forever.

Then we had Andre Savard who seemed to be going in the right direction with team, but quit after 2 years so Gainey could be GM.

I thought Gainey would be GM for life, but the death of his daughter really changed things for him and he didn't last that long.

Then Gauthier another short timer who was awful, although he did know enough to sell & get some draft picks.

Finally, Bergevin.

This organization has had a GM problem for awhile. No wonder the team hasn't been able to sustain any mild success.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There is some truth to Habs over turning GMs every 5 years.

The last long serving GM we had was Serge Savard. He was replaced by Houle, who was terrible and didn't last that long, although it seemed like forever.

Then we had Andre Savard who seemed to be going in the right direction with team, but quit after 2 years so Gainey could be GM.

I thought Gainey would be GM for life, but the death of his daughter really changed things for him and he didn't last that long.

Then Gauthier another short timer who was awful, although he did know enough to sell & get some draft picks.

Finally, Bergevin.

This organization has had a GM problem for awhile. No wonder the team hasn't been able to sustain any mild success.

You have things backwards.

We've had a string of very poor GMs. That's why they've only lasted 5 years. Should we have given more time to Houle or Gauthier? No thanks.

We need to do a better job of hiring in the first place.

 

[badbrains]

Lets be serious here. The amount of negatives that I am referring to is not just about this year. This has been happening for a while now. Maybe not you, but open your eyes. People are throwing Weber, Shaw, Alzner, etc under the bus because they were acquired by Bergevin. All of our draft picks are "meh" until they make the NHL. When they make the NHL, they are forever non impact players. Drouin is worse than Sergachev because Bergevin made this trade.

This is the BS that is happening because people dislike our GM. Congrats to those who have thrown our team under the bus for several years because they dislike our GM. Finally, you have a season where you can say you have prove and we will forever suck until Bergevin is fired. Sorry, It's not something I support. I'm not one to exaggerate and I don't believe our GM is as bad as some are saying. Just because we have an off year, it don't mean we will suck next year.

Well we just fundamentally disagree I guess. Your examples of Weber, Shaw and Alzner are big reasons why. The Weber trade was a bad hockey trade for this team. Not because I dislike Weber or think he is a poor player, but rather I feel acquiring him didn't fill any needs, in fact it created more questions than answers.

Two 2nd rounders to acquire Shaw and then extending him 6 years was a bad move. Shaw type players are not that valuable. Weise could have been kept at about half term and price and provided better value. Shaw isn't a difference maker but he's paid like one.

Alzner is what he is. Overpaid and too much term. His best years are behind him. Again, a bad fit for this team at this time.

Those players are criticized more heavily than others because they simply shouldn't be here, they don't make this team better. Bad moves by MB for this team at this point in time and magnified by his Radulov and Markov blunders this summer.

He's reaping what he's sown and that's on him.

 

[JunglePete]

Bergivin knows his days as GM are numbered. Made way too many mistakes. Price's contract is the match in the powder barrel. Giving a 31 year old with bad knees +$10M. Lefevre in the AHL is a disaster. Let Radulov go for nothing. 19 points in 20 games. If he manages to keep his job past December, it'll be astonishing in what I would consider the biggest upset in recent years in Montreal. And I bet Subban is counting his blessings at this exact moment.

 

[NORiculous]

I don’t see the point in going back on the Drouin trade.

I can live with that trade.

Now, play Drouin on the wing and he is/will be a great player.

Habs NEED talent like Drouin. I’m not saying Habs don’t need talent like Sergachev but I just feel that players like Drouin are garder to get.

I don’t see the trade as a mistake.

I do understand that it was probably a reaction to a mistake (Radulov), but still.

To his defense I can say that:
Drouin has been put at C, playing with much less talent then in TB, has much more pressure then many for a 22 year old, is only in his 3rd full season and he is still going to hit 50+ pts as he did last year with TB dispite the fact the the team is all over the place.

Give him another year, a little better conditions and he will be incredible.

 

[SakuKoivu11]

If anyone cares Bergervin is at Minnesota a game tonight. The wilds called up Joel Eriksson Ek and Luke Kunin. Not trying to put two different puzzle together.

 

[Runner77]

No that's not what I'm saying, perhaps I'm not expressing myself correctly.

I fully expected Radulov to put up points, I've never denied his ability as a player and what's more, he's getting to play with more talent this year, so it would be hard for him to not have a better year.

My issue has always been how better Radulov makes THIS team, with THIS roster better. We do not have a Seguin or a Benn, where Radulov can just seamlessly mesh in.

The Habs IMO, would be a lot more dependent on Radulov than the Stars currently are and I'm not sure, and still not, that he's THAT type of player. To be the kind of player you make your highest paid and essentially build your forward core around.



I love his motor as well, I've mentioned that several times in the past and I think even beyond his skill, it's what we miss the most.

But where I don't reach you is how it would be better to trade another asset, we're a team that needs to add without giving up what few contributing players we have. I guess it depends on the type of trade you're talking about...



and it appears that Habs were in it to the very end.

I don't get how a player who has Radulov's skill would not be able to help any team that is offensively challenged. We don't have a Benn or Seguin, but that doesn't make Radulov a lesser asset and he's precisely the type of player the Habs are not able to draft or buy. This was a unique opportunity.

And since Radulov is a winger, it would have opened the door to trade any other winger on the top 6 to try and land a center. You have much less of an opportunity to do that without him on the roster, goes without saying. Funny how the GM had no trouble throwing money at Shaw and Alzner but not for the PPG player that Radulov has been this year. And Radulov would have cost no asset in order to sign -- that has a lot of value on a team that is severely lacking in tradeable assets. Instead of that, there is no one to replace Radulov and the GM is left with a large amount of unused cap room and no one to spend it on.

 

[Runner77]

If anyone cares Bergervin is at Minnesota a game tonight. The wilds called up Joel Eriksson Ek and Luke Kunin. Not trying to put two different puzzle together.

I hope Bergevin stays in Minny and finds a job there. I don't even know how our milquetoast owner is even trusting Bergevin for anything at this point.

Thanks for the heads up, might have been more interesting if we actually had a competent GM out there.

 

[Runner77]

Owners should be passive. Presidents should not. The issue is that they are one and the same.

Well, we all know Bergevin is directly accountable to the owner, whether one calls him the owner or by his glorified hockey title.

However, ideally, it would be best to have someone other than the owner, to deal with the GM, no question.

 

[Runner77]

This is where we still disagree, giving Radulov money and term is not problem but spending 15 million per year on Plekanec, Alzner and Shaw is the problem and it has always been where Bergevin falls down. You have to pay for talent, every team does but we are in trouble by overpaying average/past prime players to big salaries and that makes them become key players on the team. We could replace all three of those guys for 6 million per year max and have plenty of money for Radulov and a center. We should also be in a position to have good young players coming from the AHL on league minimum contracts to fill our bottom 6 and move up when injuries dictate but we are not.

We should have already had the center ice issue conquered by the time Radulov comes along, like Dallas maybe. You need competitors like Radulov , you could stick him on any line and it instantly becomes better.

Unbelievably, Bergevin has repeated the same mistakes so many times that you'd think he had a secret truce with agents, to bring up the value of mediocre to average players. Given his track record, I don't get how he's still trusted by ownership.

 

[groovejuice]

Unbelievably, Bergevin has repeated the same mistakes so many times that you'd think he had a secret truce with agents, to bring up the value of mediocre to average players. Given his track record, I don't get how he's still trusted by ownership.

As you've mentioned, and several others, classic Dunning - Kruger. Can't recognize he makes mistakes at all.

Molson is a nebbish, free of hockey knowledge, and a wannabe mover & shaker in the hockey world.

He could start by giving his own head a shake, and moving Bergevin et thugs.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I don't know if this was already mentioned, but Engels has an interview with Radulov ahead of tomorrow's game. Here is a part where Radulov talks about what negotiations were with MB. He apparently had separate offers from Habs for different terms and different money in December. He obviously couldn't sign an extension, but nothing could stop them from having talks.

But Radulov also said that the five-year offer he was waiting for from Bergevin had come in December, when he was unprepared to sign anything, and that it had involved different salary figures than the ones he eventually settled on with Dallas.

“There was a three-year, a four-year, and a five-year offer in December, and the money was different for all three deals,” said Radulov. “But at that time I didn’t want to go and sign it. I had only had 35 games in the season. I wanted to take a chance and see. It was the middle of the season. I was thinking maybe I’ll feel better as the season goes on. Why would I force it if I could just play the whole season and then take my time and then we’ll see what’s going to be?”

Link to the article:
Stars' Alexander Radulov opens up about departure from Canadiens - Sportsnet.ca