Marc Bergevin - Would I lie to you Edition

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admiralcadillac

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Oct 22, 2017
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If I were Molson I'd do nothing until the media fully turned on Bergy.

If I were Molson I wouldn't base decisions off of the media in any way.

What I take issue with is when people keep saying that he doesn't make us a contender. There is literally no piece other than maybe McDavid that turns this team into a threat. However acquiring Radulov and trading Pacioretthy (something that imo had no chance of ever happening) could have really been interesting.

Trade Pacioretty for a good top 6C (let's say Duchene just for argument sake)
Trade Plekanec for a pick.

Lekhonen - Galchenyuk - Radulov
Drouin - Duchene - Gallagher
Byron - Danault - Hudon
DLR - Mitchell - Shaw

Jerabek - Weber (sheltered role / similar to Mete's deployment)
Alzner - Petry
Schlemko - Benn

Looks better than what we have today imo.

Not much better. Galchenyuk as the no.1 centre lol - yeah okay
 

Wats

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Mar 8, 2006
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I don't think Leblanc or Tinordi, using them since you brought them up, really looked all that good in the NHL.

I mean Leblanc looked alright in a season where the team was a mess, I try not to read too much into seasons like that. The Habs if I recall correctly were icing lineups with guys like Michael Blunden in the top 6.


Well we're at complete opposite ends there because if anything, I think people underestimate the impact those 4 drafts had, since players from those drafts should be forming part of the nucleus of the team we have today.

Well I didn't say they looked good in the NHL. I'm saying the fact they were, at one point, good performers at their age group post draft shows they had some redeeming qualities that could have been developed. David Fischer on the other hand was lost cause pick that couldn't be developed since there was nothing there.

What are you basing the impact on? Let's compare it to the previous regime, the 4 years prior to Gainey taking over. How much of 1999-2002 impacted core 7-10 years later? Out of Plekanec/Komisarek/Higgins, latter 2 were out of the organization by 2009 for little/nothing.
 

Price is Wright

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Feb 5, 2010
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It's interesting to me the paralysis folks have had on trading Pacioretty. Not a lot of teams have a guy who scores as consistent as he does at his level but they definitely have guys who score 5 goals less with more leadership and drive. And they do it in lesser roles.

You trade Pacioretty, you don't replace his goals. You replace everything else. Many some are too young to remember Richer for Muller. Montreal never replaced those goals but they got someone they could actually rely on, who moved to centre and shined.

You have to ask yourself what's more important? A regular season 35 goal scorer who leads you nowhere or a new team dynamic that gets you somewhere?
 

Chili

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yianik

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Jun 30, 2009
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Good read, Serge didn`t pull any punches especially about the moves on defence.

The organization`s ears should be burning hearing some of what he said.

Pretty clear he views the PK trade as not doing what it was supposed to accomplish, that Rads and Markov should be wearing the C right now, and tearing apart the D and slapping something together was very poorly approached and poorly done.

So numerous mistakes listed and then " at some point you have to pay for your mistakes".

Also critical of the long contracts to MB and CJ, interestingly enough.

Pretty clear his view is you fire MB. Said factually, respectfully and logically, with class.
 

Schwang

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I cant believe he wasnt fired on Sunday. What the hell are they waiting for? All theyre doing is prolonging the misery. At least if they start the rebuild process, it takes the pressure off. Zero expectations about winning. Everyone would know whats happening and leave them be. If a team ever needed the first pick so badly, its the habs right now. If they get it, theyd best hope Dahlin comes over.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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I started paying attention to the Habs in detail around 2007.

I remember being excited about:

Andrei Kostitsyn, Sergei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Nicklas Torp, Kyle Chipchura, Andrew Conboy, Nathan Beaulieu, Jarred Tinordi, Louis Leblanc, Corey Locke, Thomas Beauregard, Alexander Avtsin, Mathieu Carle, Mike Komisarek, etc.

Some Habs fans were saying that they would not trade the Kostitsyn brothers for the Sedin brothers.
Habs management were leaking that they were considering whether or not Beaulieu and Tinordi could replace Subban.
Nicklas Torp was going to be a better Bouillon.

Given all of that, I see a lot of myself in @Habaholicgolfer and her excess enthusiasm for prospects like McCarron and Bitten.
 

Captain Mountain

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Jun 6, 2010
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I cant believe he wasnt fired on Sunday. What the hell are they waiting for? All theyre doing is prolonging the misery. At least if they start the rebuild process, it takes the pressure off. Zero expectations about winning. Everyone would know whats happening and leave them be. If a team ever needed the first pick so badly, its the habs right now. If they get it, theyd best hope Dahlin comes over.

Who are you going to replace Bergevin with mid-season? Especially with a language requirement.

J. Brisebois isn't going to be able to interview mid-season. There's pretty much a 0% chance you can woo Brisson. You basically get to pick between McGuire and Roy. Neither is palatable.

I'm waiting to see lower level changes. Like replacing Mellanby and/or Carriere with a guy in the Dubas mold.

Or the hiring of a real President.
 
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The Habs Fan

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May 24, 2006
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I think Bergevin should have been fired after last season and really should be fired right now. However, how often do GMs get fired in November? They're usually fired in the offseason. I hope not, but we might have to go through this whole season before MB is gone.
 

WeThreeKings

Habs cup - its in the BAG
Sep 19, 2006
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I started paying attention to the Habs in detail around 2007.

I remember being excited about:

Andrei Kostitsyn, Sergei Kostitsyn, Guillaume Latendresse, Nicklas Torp, Kyle Chipchura, Andrew Conboy, Nathan Beaulieu, Jarred Tinordi, Louis Leblanc, Corey Locke, Thomas Beauregard, Alexander Avtsin, Mathieu Carle, Mike Komisarek, etc.

Some Habs fans were saying that they would not trade the Kostitsyn brothers for the Sedin brothers.
Habs management were leaking that they were considering whether or not Beaulieu and Tinordi could replace Subban.
Nicklas Torp was going to be a better Bouillon.

Given all of that, I see a lot of myself in @Habaholicgolfer and her excess enthusiasm for prospects like McCarron and Bitten.

There's one thing to be excited about prospects but there's another thing to think they are guaranteed.

You learn that the more drafts you see go by and have 5 years from the date they were drafting. Even then, you still make mistakes, the best scouts in the world make mistakes.

But guaranteeing a prospect, it's rarely smart. Daigle was can't miss once, too.
 
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WeThreeKings

Habs cup - its in the BAG
Sep 19, 2006
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Who are you going to replace Bergevin with mid-season? Especially with a language requirement.

J. Brisebois isn't going to be able to interview mid-season. There's pretty much a 0% chance you can woo Brisson. You basically get to pick between McGuire and Roy. Neither is palatable.

I'm waiting to see lower level changes. Like replacing Mellanby and/or Carriere with a guy in the Dubas mold.

Or the hiring of a real President.

Hiring a real President might be the only move they can make. Someone who can be a check and balance for Bergevin until he's fired.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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There's one thing to be excited about prospects but there's another thing to think they are guaranteed.

You learn that the more drafts you see go by and have 5 years from the date they were drafting. Even then, you still make mistakes, the best scouts in the world make mistakes.

But guaranteeing a prospect, it's rarely smart. Daigle was can't miss once, too.

Eventually we all learn that every "in 5 years" lineup that gets posted will inevitably make the poster look stupid.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
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Hiring a real President might be the only move they can make. Someone who can be a check and balance for Bergevin until he's fired.

I think that, even if Molson stayed on as President, he could break up the management group in Montreal. Bergevin's team has not materially changed in 6 years. He could force a more data savvy exec in mid-season. Toronto did that when they added Dubas and Hunter.
 
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yianik

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Jun 30, 2009
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Who are you going to replace Bergevin with mid-season? Especially with a language requirement.

J. Brisebois isn't going to be able to interview mid-season. There's pretty much a 0% chance you can woo Brisson. You basically get to pick between McGuire and Roy. Neither is palatable.

I'm waiting to see lower level changes. Like replacing Mellanby and/or Carriere with a guy in the Dubas mold.

Or the hiring of a real President.

Serge Savard as an interim GM. The only pressing trade of great importance he would have to do is move Patches while he has solid value. Patches would be sought after so you look for C's and D's that are young players or top prospects, a pick. On a tear down would want to move Weber and the clock is ticking on his value, but Patches is first and foremost. At TDL Savard would look at unloading smaller bits teams may have interest for in exchange for picks, like Pleks.

Target Brisbois. he is on a team that is offense minded, hopefully it carries on so we would not have to watch this defensive garbage any more.
 

G0bias

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Oct 4, 2007
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A big issue waiting for the off-season to fire Bergevin means missing out on trading Pacioretty now while his value is still high. Or creating a bidding war at the deadline. And any other deadline trade that would help set us up for the upcoming draft.

They need to get rid of him ASAP or put him aside so new president can come in and see to those trades.
 
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Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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Serge Savard as an interim GM. The only pressing trade of great importance he would have to do is move Patches while he has solid value. Patches would be sought after so you look for C's and D's that are young players or top prospects, a pick. On a tear down would want to move Weber and the clock is ticking on his value, but Patches is first and foremost. At TDL Savard would look at unloading smaller bits teams may have interest for in exchange for picks, like Pleks.

Target Brisbois. he is on a team that is offense minded, hopefully it carries on so we would not have to watch this defensive garbage any more.

Here's the problems with Serge Savard as interim GM:

1) He's been out of the GM game a long time. The game has changed dramatically in that time.
2) He's absolutely bungled trades too (Recchi, Montgomery, Savard, etc.).
3) He'd still have the same pro and amateur scouting staff and the same hockey ops group advising him. The GM is one guy. Bergevin should be accountable, since they're all his guys, but only bringing in a new head isn't going to fix the problems that exist, that lead to the poor trades, drafting and signings of the past.
 

yianik

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Jun 30, 2009
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Here's the problems with Serge Savard as interim GM:

1) He's been out of the GM game a long time. The game has changed dramatically in that time.
2) He's absolutely bungled trades too (Recchi, Montgomery, Savard, etc.).
3) He'd still have the same pro and amateur scouting staff and the same hockey ops group advising him. The GM is one guy. Bergevin should be accountable, since they're all his guys, but only bringing in a new head isn't going to fix the problems that exist, that lead to the poor trades, drafting and signings of the past.

You are correct about Savard's own record. i would say though that he likely had as much bad as good, and his good helped us to 2 Cups. Main point is we just want a care taker until we get the GM we want. This is why I limited the necessary trade to just Patches as I figure Savard could see what the best offers are and pick the best that meet our rebuild needs. If the offers are not good enough just stand pat until the new GM comes in.

I just don't trust MB being in there.
 

Schwang

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May 6, 2002
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Who are you going to replace Bergevin with mid-season? Especially with a language requirement.

J. Brisebois isn't going to be able to interview mid-season. There's pretty much a 0% chance you can woo Brisson. You basically get to pick between McGuire and Roy. Neither is palatable.

I'm waiting to see lower level changes. Like replacing Mellanby and/or Carriere with a guy in the Dubas mold.

Or the hiring of a real President.
True. I was thinking more of an interim guy within the organization. I’m not sure I want him making moves at this point considering his track record. Plus, if they wait too long, some of these players value could continue to go down. Not to mention, unless they embrace a full rebuild, they might get enough points to get a worse draft pick. It’s not a strong draft this year, so that won’t help at all. I could see a lot of picks getting dealt.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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You are correct about Savard's own record. i would say though that he likely had as much bad as good, and his good helped us to 2 Cups. Main point is we just want a care taker until we get the GM we want. This is why I limited the necessary trade to just Patches as I figure Savard could see what the best offers are and pick the best that meet our rebuild needs. If the offers are not good enough just stand pat until the new GM comes in.

I just don't trust MB being in there.

You want a caretaker (less connected than the current guy) and then you want to empower them to move Montreal's most valuable trade asset, despite the fact that said caretaker has been away from the game for years and will be drawing from identical resources as the previous guy to make such a decision?

That seems like a recipe for disaster.
 

417

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Feb 20, 2003
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Well I didn't say they looked good in the NHL. I'm saying the fact they were, at one point, good performers at their age group post draft shows they had some redeeming qualities that could have been developed. David Fischer on the other hand was lost cause pick that couldn't be developed since there was nothing there.

What are you basing the impact on? Let's compare it to the previous regime, the 4 years prior to Gainey taking over. How much of 1999-2002 impacted core 7-10 years later? Out of Plekanec/Komisarek/Higgins, latter 2 were out of the organization by 2009 for little/nothing.

Gainey took over in 2003...let's look at the 4yrs prior to him becoming GM

2002 - Chris Higgins, Tomas Linhart, Michael Lambert, Andre Deveaux, Jonathan Ferland, Konstantin Korneev

2001 - Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin, Duncan Milroy, Tomas Plekanec, Martti Jarventie, Eric Himelfarb, Andrew Archer, Victor Ujcik

2000 - Ron Hainsey, Marcel Hossa, Jozef Balej, Tyler Hanchuck, Johan Eneqvist, Christian Larrivée, Ryan Glenn, Scott Selig, Peter Chvojka, Joni Purula, Jonathan Gauthier

1999 - Alexander Buturlin, Matt Carkner, Chris Dyment, Evan Lindsay, Dusty Jamieson, M-A Thinel, Matt Shasby, Sean Dixon, Vadim Tarasov, Mikko Hyytia, Jerome Marois

I'd say those drafts had a significant impact on the team under Gainey's regime...they could never land that premier forward we've been so desperate for, not by drafting or using their draft picks to trade for some.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can neglect how consecutive years of bad drafting have reverberating negative effects on the team 3,4,5,6,7 years later...

I mean, seems pretty matter of fact to me...you can't miss onn4 consecutive drafts. 4 consecutive drafts HAVE to produce more than 4 NHL'ers.

2008 to 2011 was even worse when you consider the only NHL players that came from those 4 consecutive drafts are Brendan Gallagher & Nathan Beaulieu (who let's be honest, is barely an NHL player at this point).

Brendan Gallagher is considered an important piece of the Habs...are you really suggesting this team wouldn't be a hell of a lot different if we had .....

Evgeny Kuznetsov or Charlie Coyle instead of Jared Tinordi?

Or Chris Kreider or Marcus Johansson instead of Louis LeBlanc?

Or Oscar Klefbom instead of Nathan Beaulieu?

Again, you can't strike out on 4 consecutive drafts and not feel the ripple effects down the line.
 

Luigi Habs

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Jul 30, 2005
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Here's the problems with Serge Savard as interim GM:

1) He's been out of the GM game a long time. The game has changed dramatically in that time.
2) He's absolutely bungled trades too (Recchi, Montgomery, Savard, etc.).
3) He'd still have the same pro and amateur scouting staff and the same hockey ops group advising him. The GM is one guy. Bergevin should be accountable, since they're all his guys, but only bringing in a new head isn't going to fix the problems that exist, that lead to the poor trades, drafting and signings of the past.

Well not only this. Serge Savard himself said this morning that he's been far from the hockey world since a while now. He hasn't been close enough to be able to make any educated decisions. Definitely a no to SS. He could be a good president though. However, he's the one who recommended Bergevin, even though he thinks he needs to be fired now, but obviously MB has proved to be a big mistake for this franchise.
 
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