Marc Bergevin - Would I lie to you Edition

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isthatso

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I don't think I made it personal at all, I could see him going that route though.

As for the rest of your post...all good points, don't disagree at all.

I also get what you mean by it would be pointless to put a name on a possible trade, that type of conversation tends degenerate into nonsense.

But it's also essential to the argument he's trying to make.

If you're take is that re-signing Radulov makes trading Pacioretty easier.

Ok, fair...

But for what? If not names, then what's the template?

Is it a trade built around futures/prospects? Is it for established players?

I'm surely willing to consider another perspective, as I've done several times before.

On another note...welcome to the board.

I am honestly not sure that it is required for his point to be valid to any extent. The name of that possible target in return of Pacioretty could be so many things depending on so many factors. First one would be availability. What was ''possibly'' available this summer? What is ''possibly'' available now. And there are so many other factors that I don't believe it would be beneficial to take on this issue in a vacuum.

Like you said, that usually turns out to become nonsense.

The point remains valid: more assets, more options. Even if the team fumbles as hard as it did with Radulov on the roster. One more player to sell for future, if that is the chosen route. Especially that we do have the cap space as we speak.

The large ''template'' this summer would have been a center. Or, I guess, a PMD (won't touch the Markov situation). Now... That template can have a much broader range.
 
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MarkovsKnee

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You have things backwards.

We've had a string of very poor GMs. That's why they've only lasted 5 years. Should we have given more time to Houle or Gauthier? No thanks.

We need to do a better job of hiring in the first place.

That was actually my point. I wouldn't have wanted either Houle or Gauthier to have lasted longer than they did. I would've liked Andre Savard to hang on longer.

MB was hired as a rookie GM. I'm sure when he took over the job he thought he would build the team from the ground up through the draft.

But the core was better than people thought & 2012 we suffered through so many injuries it was ridiculous.

We got good fast & instead of picking top 10, we were picking in the 20s. Instead of thinking we were years away & needed to build more, we looked closer.

The result is that MB never really got to build his own core. Price, Pacioretty, Subban (which got us Weber), Plekanec, Gallagher were all already here & started contributing.

I'm not a fan of MB, but I'm starting to think he deserves a chance to dig himself out of this one. Every GM has had a down time & survived it.

My concern with MB is: he hires his friends & is overly loyal to them (see Lefebvre & J.J). Lefebvre has done nothing of note in the AHL to deserve continued employment. The assistant coaches should've went with MT.

There needs to be a bit of a house cleaning & a refreshing of the scouting staff. I don't know if MB is capable of that.

His foxhole mentality is not a positive image. Digging in as shots are fired at you is not an image I want associated with the GM of the Montreal Canadiens.

It doesn't seem like Molson wants to fire him & he may give him an opportunity to re-build a new core.
 

groovejuice

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He's right. But Savard also forgot why he was fired.... Trading Leclair and Desjardins for Recchi, + His less than stellar drafting in the last few years of his reign.

Why would you say that? Some people are actually capable of acknowledging their mistakes. Plus when one can recognize and understand their own flaws, it helps to identify those flaws in others.

Serge knows what winners look like. He won 8 as a player, and 2 as the Habs GM. I'll take his opinion over most other hockey people, every time.
 
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Kimota

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Ludwig: Radulov makes the Stars better

Listen to this interview with Craig Ludwig who handles the Stars and knuckles, both saying Radulov works his butt off every shift and its contagious.

And then tell me he's not worth 8 million per year. Bullocks! Such a stupid move by Bergevin to not offer this guy the moon and make sure he didn't get to free agency or thoroughly outbid the other teams even if he did...It's ridiculous, now we have to watch a crappy offensively impotent team all year...

Maybe Radu make the Stars better but they still suck.
 

Belial

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Thanks. Unfortunately, false narrative, exaggeration, hyperbole and whatnots are basically 90% of these forums nowadays. And frankly, even the best of you guys do it from time to time.

Then again, might have been an honest mistake.

Although, my opinion on the subject is as I presented it in my previous post. If you prone ''building through the draft'', you should at least bring in more picks than you ship out, so even without exaggeration, the point is still valid.

Especially when you acknowledge LIVE that drafting is a lot like a crap shot. Here goes my first snarky comment: ''Hey, who's that analytic guy Bergevin fired? He should have at least keep him around to explain simple odds calculation to him, right?''

So the teams that don't sell everything and tank are not building through the draft is this what you're trying to tell me? How are they building in your opinion? All the teams in the league are building through the draft or are trying to build through the draft would be more appropriate.

Just because you don't sell all your valuables players for picks and suck for years it doesn't mean you're not building through the draft.

Yes, more picks would've been nice, it's just logical but you have to look at how everything unfolded. This team made the PO more often than not and were usually buyers instead of being sellers at the TDL.

He kept all his first round picks, managed to get back all the second round picks he traded, acquired 2 extra third round picks + Shaw and + Petry...
 

Kimota

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Having Radulov and Markov back would of put us where? A bubble playoff team? A team not a cup contender and with more inflated contracts? In hindsight, an of year is the best thing to happen to us this year. It's time we relieve the pressure to win and take a few steps back. Don't care if it's with Bergevin or not with Bergevin.

When I was looking at the team last year, given how the Rangers so easily beat the Habs, we needed an upgrade. But that upgrade never meant losing Radu and Markov, since we were not strong enough WITH them, we should have added to our squad not replace them by someone else. Radu especially was part of the solution cause he was our more determined player in the playoffs!

My idea was always keep them but trade Gally and Chucky for a center and a left D to help Markov(given his age). Now I don't know Bergevin's brain works but what he did was like pretty much give away four roster players for free and sign Alzner and trade Drouin(not a center) was quite strange in managing assets. It felt like the 2009 Gainey blow up of the roster when in the summer he decided to not re-sign Saku, Kovalev and Tanguay and replaced them by Gomez, Cammy and Gionta. I mean you either add to make your roster better or you clean house and rebuild. Both Gainey and MB made mind-boggling horrible decisions.
 

Kriss E

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There's nothing difficult to understand about this point you're making, in fact, I have SEVERAL times expressed the sentiment that I DO understand that the roster would be better today if it had Radulov on it as opposed to not having him or anyone else.

I understand this very simple logic and have said so several times.

Check page 8 through 10 of the OT thread if you want, check my exchange with Gobias...
Well, maybe stop saying this then:
I dont think that makes us better...
So yes, it would make us better. Okay, let's move on.
Wrong again, I've also acknowledged that several times, in fact last week, someone argued just that and extrapolated the thought even further and I gave him credit for providing a perspective that I hadn't thought of.

Sign Radulov...trade Pacioretty...ok

I can get down with that depending on what that trade is.

Fair argument.

Only issue I have with this argument is that trading a Pacioretty on a team starved for goals doesn't really solve anything. If we trade him and add a center, who scores goals now?

Radulov? Galchenyuk?

Are we really better?

Difficult to say, you'd have to provide an example of a trade, otherwise is just crap against the wall.
I told you about this during the summer actually. I said keeping Radu+Drouin+Patches+Galch+Galla+Lek, gives us some very good depth on the wing. So overpaying Radu by an extra year and million is more than worth the gamble.
As for a trade, that depends the route we are taking. Are we trading Patches for a center that could help right away? Or a young one that needs space to blossom as a top one? Impossible for me to throw names as we do not know who is available. Needless to say, trades happen, and we are in a better position to trade Patches with Radu here, if the objective is to remain competitive. And yes, if we get a top center, that is more valuable than a perimeter scorer who tends to mostly score vs weaker teams.
If the goal is to rebuild, which I had no issue with for a while now, then let Radu go, trade Patches now. Also why I was against giving Price that contract.

Not sure what you mean by this but it appears you've decided the point is moot so I guess there's nothing for me to say lol
You argued for Bergevin that having 8M in cap space meant he could use that the next summer, so just because he hasn't signed anyone with it this year, it could all be part of his plan to get someone next summer.
He could have still done this with Radu here.

Kriss E...you don't want to go down the reminiscing lane with me. You keep re-positioning your arguments with me as it relates to Plekanec, but before he signed his extension and I was championing the cause to trade him as his VALUE was declining, you also laughed at me.

So let's put aside the ego contest for a second and just stick to the conversation...I'm not trying to be called 'boy' again tonight.
Not sure what Plekanec, what was it, 5 years ago, has to do with this. I am talking about things brought up a few months ago.
And really, you think you have the upper hand in reminiscing who's been more right or wrong about Bergevin's decisions over the years? Really?
Ya, let's not go there indeed buddy.
Anyways, no need to get into a childish debate. Let's move on from that talking point.
 

Runner77

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If I were Molson I'd do nothing until the media fully turned on Bergy.

I hope their main focus is not damage control. However, the fact that no move of substance was announced since last week's cratering shows that ownership may not feel a sense of urgency just yet.
 

isthatso

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So the teams that don't sell everything and tank are not building through the draft is this what you're trying to tell me? How are they building in your opinion? All the teams in the league are building through the draft or are trying to build through the draft would be more appropriate.

Just because you don't sell all your valuables players for picks and suck for years it doesn't mean you're not building through the draft.

Yes, more picks would've been nice, it's just logical but you have to look at how everything unfolded. This team made the PO more often than not and were usually buyers instead of being sellers at the TDL.

He kept all his first round picks, managed to get back all the second round picks he traded, acquired 2 extra third round picks + Shaw and + Petry...

In my opinion, they are either not building through the draft, or they are very bad at it. I never implied that any team have to sell everything and tank in order to be considered doing so, though.

For many reasons, some of which you have stated - like being buyers most of the time - and some we haven't discussed yet, they are more in a reactive way, which for me means a team that relies on FA and trades mostly. The most recent flagrant example of this could be the Sergachev VS Drouin trade, which could be considered fair value at the time. I don't think it is relevant to debate this particular trade to make my point here, though. Especially not in a vacuum.

Anyways,

1- They traded more picks than the acquired (3:2 ratio).
2- They are buyers for most part, sending occasional dead weight, but also picks and organizational youth.
3- A lot of drafted players have not panned out. That happens, but it happens at an especially quicker rate in MTL. We have all seen the stats of games played by player drafted by the same organization since the last 3-4 years, as well as seing that we are sitting near the back of the train.
4- They traded young assets drafted & developed by the organization away from the organization (Beaulieu, Sergachev, Andrighetto, Bozon, Tinordi, Leblanc, Collberg, Kristo, Subban, Gorges and I might be forgetting some).

The point here is not the quality of the players that were traded away, as in some of those cases they acquired just as bad of players as they sent, but here would be my possible conclusions:

a) Systematic problem of drafting and developing, therefore many young assets need to be traded away (in a perfect world, if we would have to do this, we should at least do it before their value plummets), which in turns would mean to me that if they are building through the draft, they are not very good at it.

b) Since they get rid of more picks than they acquire, send away youth that doesn't pan out (regardless of why), acquire many vets at TDL, trade younger players drafted by MTL for older players not drafted by MTL, therefore they are not truly building through the draft.

Bottom line, if you build your team through trades, your are not building through the draft. DLR, Chucky, Gally, Hudon, Lek, Pac, Plek, Mete, Price. Those are the only players drafted and developed by MTL, while playing regular shifts here. A bit more than a third and I don't want to derail this even further, but Chucky and Pac might very well be on their way out.

I believe that I was fair here, as I counted all of them, regardless of the regime in both occasions above (Plek and Gorges for example).

Unless you count the transactions of our youth and picks VS other teams' assets still building through the draft, but that would just mean that every team is building through the draft and render the whole terminologie quite useless.

Again, this is just my opinion, but no, they are not building through the draft, or they are very bad at it.
 

Habs100

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Not sure if this was posted already, but you should listen to this interview with Serge Savard in its entirety: «Un moment donné, il faut que tu payes pour tes décisions» - Serge Savard

In a very diplomatic way, he conveys that he is dumbfounded that MB hasn’t been fired yet.

Aren't we all. We all knew his moves this summer sucked. And everyone knew the Subban trade would play out like it has. Did anyone like giving up two early 2nd round picks for Shaw, the year Girard got drafted later in the 2nd round?
 

NotProkofievian

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Aren't we all. We all knew his moves this summer sucked. And everyone knew the Subban trade would play out like it has. Did anyone like giving up two early 2nd round picks for Shaw, the year Girard got drafted later in the 2nd round?

Well, we didn't all know these things. lol
 

Runner77

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Bergevin has tried to throw his players under the bus and it didn't work.

Now, he should be considering hiding his future implosions behind a bus:



Pro teams have already begun using the MARTA bus blocking technique:

h--kYN.gif
 

Lafleurs Guy

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That was actually my point. I wouldn't have wanted either Houle or Gauthier to have lasted longer than they did. I would've liked Andre Savard to hang on longer.

MB was hired as a rookie GM. I'm sure when he took over the job he thought he would build the team from the ground up through the draft.

But the core was better than people thought & 2012 we suffered through so many injuries it was ridiculous.

We got good fast & instead of picking top 10, we were picking in the 20s. Instead of thinking we were years away & needed to build more, we looked closer.

The result is that MB never really got to build his own core. Price, Pacioretty, Subban (which got us Weber), Plekanec, Gallagher were all already here & started contributing.

I'm not a fan of MB, but I'm starting to think he deserves a chance to dig himself out of this one. Every GM has had a down time & survived it.

My concern with MB is: he hires his friends & is overly loyal to them (see Lefebvre & J.J). Lefebvre has done nothing of note in the AHL to deserve continued employment. The assistant coaches should've went with MT.

There needs to be a bit of a house cleaning & a refreshing of the scouting staff. I don't know if MB is capable of that.

His foxhole mentality is not a positive image. Digging in as shots are fired at you is not an image I want associated with the GM of the Montreal Canadiens.

It doesn't seem like Molson wants to fire him & he may give him an opportunity to re-build a new core.
What has he done to warrant getting more time?

When he come on here we already had a good young core. If he couldn't see that after the 2013 season then he has no business being an NHL GM. Let's look at what happened during his tenure here:

- He hired terrible coaches at both the NHL and AHL level and stuck by them when it was beyond obvious that it was time to move on.

- He allowed Desharnais to be used as our number one. Went along with the dump and chase/grinding system that his coach advocated.

- Lowballed a great young player only to watch that player win the Norris and then get a huge contract. Then he backs his coach in an absolutely pointless feud against this player. Then he goes out and makes a so called 'win it now' trade for Weber and does nothing to bolster the roster to actually win something.

- Not only has he not gotten a center that we've needed, he's ruined the one we had in Galchenyuk. It's been a series of nickel and dime trades when the club could've contended with a big addition.

- Advocates a build through the draft strategy and has one of the worst prospect pools in the league.

- Finally, there has been no real direction with this team. No sense of a real plan. He does the minimum on additions for the team and the minimum on development. The result has been a club that has been overly reliant on great goaltending and not much of a prospect pool to show for his five years. Not only are we not contenders but we also don't have much in the way of up and coming talent.

There are more points that could be made here but these should be sufficient enough. He's an objectively bad GM and it's way past time to move on. There's absolutely now way he should get a second bite at the apple after squandering the good young core he already had. You don't re-up with incompetents, you move on from them.
 
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Habs Halifax

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When I was looking at the team last year, given how the Rangers so easily beat the Habs, we needed an upgrade. But that upgrade never meant losing Radu and Markov, since we were not strong enough WITH them, we should have added to our squad not replace them by someone else. Radu especially was part of the solution cause he was our more determined player in the playoffs!

My idea was always keep them but trade Gally and Chucky for a center and a left D to help Markov(given his age). Now I don't know Bergevin's brain works but what he did was like pretty much give away four roster players for free and sign Alzner and trade Drouin(not a center) was quite strange in managing assets. It felt like the 2009 Gainey blow up of the roster when in the summer he decided to not re-sign Saku, Kovalev and Tanguay and replaced them by Gomez, Cammy and Gionta. I mean you either add to make your roster better or you clean house and rebuild. Both Gainey and MB made mind-boggling horrible decisions.

I honestly don't think it was Bergevin's plan to let both Radulov and Markov go. He was trying to get the best deal for our team so we had the room to make the improvements if the circumstances presented themselves for us. It just did no go to plan but like I said, In hindsight, I like that we are getting younger and we might acquire a lottery pick. In all honestly, that is how we are going to get this team over the hump. We are not going to become a cup contender by drafting in the 25+ position and a 1st round exit and trying to fill voids in our roster via trades and free agency

Radulov: I really don't think we had a shot at retaining Radulov once Dallas came into the picture. The situation in Dallas was too tempting for Radulov not to accept. That sucks but pinning this on Bergevin is not right IMO and it is yet another thing people want to point fingers because they are upset we are not the Pens. 'Bergevin tried to sign him starting last December with offering 3, 4, 5 year deals and also matching Dallas's offer once they came into the picture in UFA. A GM not named Bergevin would of experience the same frustrations with trying to retain Radulov. Add him to the list who choose a different team vs ours. I think if we had a better center depth, Radulov would of came back. The vibe and negativity of how we lose in the 1st round sets the tone and Radulov walked to Dallas because he has players to play with. The more the Habs "try" to be relevant, the worse our core will get. It's time to take a few steps back to acquire a few top 10 picks or even better!

Markov: Some people say we are running out of time with Weber (age 32). These same people also say we had a great core back in 2012 that Bergevin inherited. Well at that point, I believe Markov was age 34. I wanted Markov back but 2 years at $6M or 1 year at $6M is too much. The guy is 39 come this playoffs and he has 3pts in his last 18 playoff games. What are we paying him for? To be a defensive wizard at age 39? Sucks he did not want to take a $4M to $5M deal because I bet that's what the team was offering. Any GM would of done the same in that situation.

So what did we have back in 2012 really? Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd overall pick, Eller ? What prospects did we have that were going to fill the voids? Gallagher, Dumont, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn? Who else? Where is the center depth? Lets compare this to today?

1) Gallagher, Beaulieu < Lehkonen, Mete, Hudon, Lindgren

2) Dumont, Leblanc, Tinordi, Pateryn = DLR, McCarron, Lernout, Bourque, Morrow, Audette, Gregoire

3) ?????? <<<<<< Juulsen, Scherbak, Poehling, Brook, Ikonen, Bitten, Evans, McNiven, Fleury, Walford,

The strength to today's prospects is probably of hitting due to quantity. If people think our prospect pool is bad today, well, it was ridiculously very bad back in 2012. This was our biggest problem and it has taken years to overcome how bad our prospect pool was.
 
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Perrah

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If Yzerman was so brilliant, he would had let his small center Tyler Johnson available for the Draft and keep Drouin.. He had already Point to play on that 2nd line.

He gave a 7 y contract - 35M $ to Johnson.

5 mill for a center that puts up 42 pts in 47 playoff games. Almost 2 full runs at nearly a ppg. Instead he loses Jason Garrison, a bad contract, and gets Sergachev for Drouin and gets to keep his playoff horse. Fascinating concept keeping your players that perform in the playoffs.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Are you spewing this again? We went over this already... but since you may have forgotten...
Draft picks since MB was on board...
MB traded away
6 x 2nd picks
2 x 4th picks
5 x 5th picks
2 x 6th picks
2 x 7th picks
Total = 17 picks

MB acquired
3 x 2nd picks
2 x 3rd picks
4 x 5th picks
1 x 6th picks
Total = 10 picks

Please explain how that is building via draft? How do you build by trading away way more picks (which includes way more higher valued picks) than acquiring?? Take a look, traded SIX 2nd rnd picks and acquired three...yeah, okay buddy, MB is building via draft...
I'm patient, but at this rate there are less and less draft picks to build with. The only good thing so far is that he hasn't gotten rid of any 1st round picks. That's about it.

You are twisting things and trying to give credit at who acquiring what and this is a witch hunt IMO. At the end of the day, you start in 2012 before the draft. Including the next draft, we will have 28 top 100 picks (average of 4 per year). Then go look at how this compares to the rest of the league and we ranked in the top 5 or very close to it. Our problem is we did not have too many top 10 picks and one of them (Galchenyuk) has not become the #1C we needed him to be.

Of course Bergevin traded some picks. I'd like to see you compare this to other GM's over the last 6 years (since 2012) and see how many they traded? This might make your witch hunt look foolish. I would also like to see you focus at lower round picks (top 100 or something close to this) as this is where most NHL players are drafted. But wait, there was this 6th round or 7th round pick we traded and this counts! We were sure to draft a NHL player with this pick.

Here is something else for you to consider and it supports what I have been saying (that you put blind folds on towards)

1) Gallagher, Beaulieu < Lehkonen, Mete, Lindgren, Hudon

2) Tinordi, Leblanc, Dumont, Pateryn < Lernout, DLR, McCarron, Bourque, Audette, Gregoire, Addison, Carr

3) ?????? <<<<<<<<< Poehling, Scherbak, Juulsen, Ikonen, Brook, Bitten, Evans, McNiven, Fleury, Walford

You really need to just stop with your witch hunt. This is a night and day difference between 2012 and today. Plus we have another 5 top 100 picks coming.
 

DAChampion

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1) Gallagher, Beaulieu < Lehkonen, Mete, Hudon, Lindgren

2) Dumont, Leblanc, Tinordi, Pateryn = DLR, McCarron, Lernout, Bourque, Morrow, Audette, Gregoire

3) ?????? <<<<<< Juulsen, Scherbak, Poehling, Brook, Ikonen, Bitten, Evans, McNiven, Fleury, Walford,

In a few years you'll realize that this comparison is pure bullshit.

Nothing will convince you other than the passage of time and seeking most of these prospects bust.
 

CauZuki

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Feb 19, 2008
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Well, maybe stop saying this then:

So yes, it would make us better. Okay, let's move on.

I told you about this during the summer actually. I said keeping Radu+Drouin+Patches+Galch+Galla+Lek, gives us some very good depth on the wing. So overpaying Radu by an extra year and million is more than worth the gamble.
As for a trade, that depends the route we are taking. Are we trading Patches for a center that could help right away? Or a young one that needs space to blossom as a top one? Impossible for me to throw names as we do not know who is available. Needless to say, trades happen, and we are in a better position to trade Patches with Radu here, if the objective is to remain competitive. And yes, if we get a top center, that is more valuable than a perimeter scorer who tends to mostly score vs weaker teams.
If the goal is to rebuild, which I had no issue with for a while now, then let Radu go, trade Patches now. Also why I was against giving Price that contract.


You argued for Bergevin that having 8M in cap space meant he could use that the next summer, so just because he hasn't signed anyone with it this year, it could all be part of his plan to get someone next summer.
He could have still done this with Radu here.


Not sure what Plekanec, what was it, 5 years ago, has to do with this. I am talking about things brought up a few months ago.
And really, you think you have the upper hand in reminiscing who's been more right or wrong about Bergevin's decisions over the years? Really?
Ya, let's not go there indeed buddy.
Anyways, no need to get into a childish debate. Let's move on from that talking point.

What I take issue with is when people keep saying that he doesn't make us a contender. There is literally no piece other than maybe McDavid that turns this team into a threat. However acquiring Radulov and trading Pacioretthy (something that imo had no chance of ever happening) could have really been interesting.

Trade Pacioretty for a good top 6C (let's say Duchene just for argument sake)
Trade Plekanec for a pick.

Lekhonen - Galchenyuk - Radulov
Drouin - Duchene - Gallagher
Byron - Danault - Hudon
DLR - Mitchell - Shaw

Jerabek - Weber (sheltered role / similar to Mete's deployment)
Alzner - Petry
Schlemko - Benn

Looks better than what we have today imo.
 
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