Marc Bergevin -'The answer is in that room'- Edition

[Rapala]

Quality Measures:

1) Per naturalstattrick.com, Montreal is 11th in SCF/60 and 2nd in HDCF/60. They're 9th in SCF/60 and 4th in HDCF/60 at even strength.
2) Per Corsica, Montreal is 8th in xGF% at even strength and 5th in all situations.

Montreal is getting good looks too. Because they're very good at getting to the net. They're good at grinding pucks out of corners and on the wall. They jump on rebounds.

I don't have stats available (its collected by private companies, not the NHL), but I suspect Montreal's scoring issues are down to skill, spacing and luck. This team is shallow in high-end talent at both forward (especially Center) and Defence. Good players make plays. And Montreal lacks playmakers and players that create their own space.

They also don't have D that can stretch the ice and create spacing for their forwards to force D and goalies to make difficult plays. This team is REALLY missing a D-man like Markov or Subban (or even Beaulieu's passing). Weber is a smart passer, but he's slow to act. Its why he didn't/doesn't really work on the half wall on the PP. He needs teammates to create time and space for him offensively. Petry is a good puck carrier and helps drive possession, but he's never been a great passer. The rest of the D are optimally 3rd pair guys. Luck is uncontrollable and not worth worrying about.

Do you have access to a single game example of the chart you used initially? I'm curious to see what the raw numbers would have looked like in last night's game for example where we were pretty much dominated despite our victory. Regarding our backend I concur wholeheartedly not much tape to tape capability there.
JBek showed some passing ability but CJ doesn't seem to trust him much. He did hit a few opposition sticks in his last outing but our forwards were all running deep routes at the time like they tend to do on occasion. So our backend is the main reason why I can't give an identity to this team. A good Grinding club requires a sound pinch IMO and a good transition team needs that tape to tape execution. This D corps does neither very well. Add to this our weakness straight up the gut and the results are assuredly what we are getting. Which is essentially why I questioned your take on the makeup and style of this current build.

 

[Rapala]

You trade for Weber , you’re in win mode then you don’t make any other significant moves. Instead you trade for King and Ott. Don’t get it.

The trade did nothing to put us in a win mode IMO.
It was done as a means to an end.
Some of us were calling out the front office indeed the entire organization when the campaign to tarnish Subban started.
I'm talking about their use of the Media (french in particular) to forward their agenda. It was evidently prep work to some of us in advance of Subban's dumping. I actually used the term trial balloon at the time. Besides MB doesn't understand or believe in win mode or windows and said as much. Fans assumed the trade was to put us in a win mode and or perceived that we were forced into a win now situation. We missed our win mode window after our ECF as far as I'm concerned. The subban deal was a flat-liner for the Habs.

 

[David Suzuki]

you really believe you will call for MB head?

It's been 5 years now. No number one centre in sight, why would you want him fired after the sixth year?

You will just say the same **** next september

wow what a brave post keep up the good fight glad soemone is doing it.

 

[sampollock]

MB will chase a bandaid, fix.....100% certain

 

[Tuggy]

I was quite concerned that MB would pick up Beleskey, but I'm hoping no news is good news.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Do you have access to a single game example of the chart you used initially? I'm curious to see what the raw numbers would have looked like in last night's game for example where we were pretty much dominated despite our victory. Regarding our backend I concur wholeheartedly not much tape to tape capability there.
JBek showed some passing ability but CJ doesn't seem to trust him much. He did hit a few opposition sticks in his last outing but our forwards were all running deep routes at the time like they tend to do on occasion. So our backend is the main reason why I can't give an identity to this team. A good Grinding club requires a sound pinch IMO and a good transition team needs that tape to tape execution. This D corps does neither very well. Add to this our weakness straight up the gut and the results are assuredly what we are getting. Which is essentially why I questioned your take on the makeup and style of this current build.

You need to subscribe to get game level heat maps from that site, but naturalstattrick.com has them freely available:

New Jersey Devils @ Montreal Canadiens, 2017-12-14

It matches my view that both teams got a lot of shots off, but the Devils had more dangerous chances. moneypuck.com also does a good job breaking down expected goals per game, even providing an estimate chance of scoring based on shot location, type of shot and game state:

MoneyPuck.com

And I've been harping on Bergevin's teardown of a D-core for a while.

The only reason I use the grinding identity is that its a catch-all identity in hockey. If you don't have a clear identity but you work hard, you're a grinding team. It was true for most of those trash Oilers and Leafs teams and its embraced by most teams short on talent. You don't need to be physically dominating, a great passer, a sniper or be a smart player to be gritty. You just need to battle.

I don't think Grinding teams need D who pinch, to me that's more of what an offensive oriented team would do.

 

[Harry22]

hand

Handcuffed how?

Weber, a gazillion years
Price, a gazillion years
Alzner, lol
Pac

Yzerman missed the playoffs last year, hence, according to a poster, this is FAILURE!!!!

If anyone has a problem with this they should bring it up with him/her

Lightning missing some of their best players - one point our of the playoffs with 94 points
Habs missing some of their best players - WORST COLLAPSE in franchise history, finished way off and drafted top 10.

Lightning made the Cup finals 2 years ago, again a top team this year.
Habs? Steady decline since their conference finals and NO IMPROVEMENTS to show.

 

[Harry22]

Weber for Subban was a move that wasn't needed. Considering this team badly needed offense back then, he trades his best playoff performer, his best offensive D for a more stay at home D with a booming shot. Yes the trade made a lot of sense.

Price literally had his best years with Subban anyway, why did he need a better fit? Shouldn't he add to the offensive style instead of making it worse?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I was quite concerned that MB would pick up Beleskey, but I'm hoping no news is good news.

Rumors I heard was Bergevin was interested in signing Beleskey back when but he backed out when Beleskey was asking for too much term. I was not a fan of paying him what he wanted for one decent season but lets not pretend there was not interest in him from across the league. I doubt anyone touches that contract.

 

[Andrei79]

And that's the difference, the drafting has been superb....Montreal's not as much, same with the development. I was on board for the sly firing

First thing Yzerman did was revamp his scouting team. Bergevin's drafting record is on him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Weber for Subban was a move that wasn't needed. Considering this team badly needed offense back then, he trades his best playoff performer, his best offensive D for a more stay at home D with a booming shot. Yes the trade made a lot of sense.

You're saying the trade was better for Price? Price literally had his best years with Subban anyway, why did he need a better fit? Shouldn't he add to the offensive style instead of making it worse?

Two points.

- I like the return we got for Subban but I don't like the reason why we traded him.

- The trade was not made to turn us into a win now mode. The trade was made because Weber and his style fit our GM's strategy of trying to make the Habs a tougher team to play against with one of the best goaltenders in the world.

This original point is being spiraled into a new debate about Subban vs Weber. I replied to a point where someone said we Acquired Weber to be in win now mode and didn't make any other moves after it. I don't agree. Weber was only 31 last year and we signed Radulov in the same summer.

 

[Harry22]

Two points.

- I like the return we got for Subban but I don't like the reason why we traded him.

- The trade was not made to turn us into a win now mode. The trade was made because Weber and his style fit our GM's strategy of trying to make the Habs a tougher team to play against with one of the best goaltenders in the world.

This original point is being spiraled into a new debate about Subban vs Weber. I replied to a point where someone said we Acquired Weber to be in win now mode and didn't make any other moves after it. I don't agree. Weber was only 31 last year and we signed Radulov in the same summer.

1 - Don't you think we should have gotten something more for one of our best assets? Like I don't know, a center?
2 - Did that work out? Habs are not tougher to play against since the trade.

 

[sandviper]

Incorrect.

We traded for Weber as he fits better in front of Price. I don't like the reason why we made the trade (Subban being a risky player and was bigger than the team BS) but we did not make this trade to be in win now mode. If Weber was age 35 today, I would agree with you. However, he is not and is 4 seasons away from that today. That't not win now mode

We didn't make any other significant moves? How about Radulov? Yeah we lost him after one season but that was a pretty significant move.

Where I would criticize Bergevin is not signing both Subban and Radulov to long term contracts when he had a chance as both players burned him on the next contract negotiation. This is one of his weaknesses for sure.

I don’t feel the first statement is correct. Weber didn’t necessarily fit better in front of Price but more that Weber fit better into the system the management and coaches envisioned. Price is going to be Price. I guess thinking about it, that statement might be accurate since the system is Price...

As for the win now, I think a more accurate statement is getting Weber is a move to win for the next few years. Basically, a guy like Weber has fewer years ahead than he did behind, so his peak was at the time of the trade and for the next few years. Sure, he could be like Chara and be effective past 35, but Weber isn’t a guy you get to lead a rebuild or to remain at status quo.

Obviously, Molson said it himself, the Habs aren’t and won’t rebuild, so Weber is here because the team is expected to be playoff bound perpetually.

Weber is great but he isn’t going to carry a team himself. He’s a complimentary piece. The problem is MB failed to add additional complementary pieces since. Sure, we got Alzner, but he isn’t complimentary to Weber. I know Mete has been good, and Weber is a great mentor, but as a long time vet, again with fewer years ahead than behind, he probably envisioned playing along side an elite crew and win soon.

Hence, Weber isn’t the player you’re trading for if you only expect to win in 3-5 years. You get him because you want to win today, next year and the year after. I guess for the most part, last year was a success (to management) but despite preaching patience, I am sure nobody is happy how this year is going. I don’t think Weber is the problem at all with this team, but he certainly isn’t the solution.

 

[Habs Halifax]

1 - Don't you think we should have gotten something more for one of our best assets? Like I don't know, a center?
2 - Did that work out? Habs are not tougher to play against since the trade.

A spinning debate... love it

1) Yes, I think we should of got more. I wanted a 2nd but Bergevin wanted to trade him before his NMC kicked in for some strange reason.

2) Tougher to play against? Not sure. What are your examples of us not being tougher to play against? How do we evaluate this? All I know is that Weber is a very tough defenseman to go up against and I know why Bergevin wanted him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don’t feel the first statement is correct. Weber didn’t necessarily fit better in front of Price but more that Weber fit better into the system the management and coaches envisioned. Price is going to be Price. I guess thinking about it, that statement might be accurate since the system is Price.

You don't agree he fits better in front of Price but you do feel he does fit better into the system the management and coaches envisioned?

 

[G0bias]

Gotta love it.

Used to be "if he doesn't get a center this summer and we start the season with 8M cap space, he needs to go". Then the goalposts shifted to November(?), the deadline... and now it's next off-season lol. Bless.

 

[waffledave]

LMAO, I thought it was the deadline? Have we already moved to ''this off-season''? So soon.

I didn't even realize that the limit to fix the team had moved to the deadline from November.

I guess I missed the memo.

So can someone please confirm what the official deadline is now to finally address this team's biggest issues? Is it the trade deadline? Draft? UFA? Next year's training camp? Maybe in 2020? I need to update my calendar.

 

[sampollock]

is there not a Subban thread?

 

[waffledave]

You don't agree he fits better in front of Price but you do feel he does fit better into the system the management and coaches envisioned?

The coach changed, and Bergevin changes his mind about this team's direction at least once a year. Usually it's every press conference.

 

[sampollock]

The coach changed, and Bergevin changes his mind about this team's direction at least once a year. Usually it's every press conference.

yes sir, every presser he comes up with a new sogan, "no excuses", but he sure has a few

 

[NotProkofievian]

I didn't even realize that the limit to fix the team had moved to the deadline from November.

I guess I missed the memo.

So can someone please confirm what the official deadline is now to finally address this team's biggest issues? Is it the trade deadline? Draft? UFA? Next year's training camp? Maybe in 2020? I need to update my calendar.

It's when the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars.

 

[sandviper]

You don't agree he fits better in front of Price but you do feel he does fit better into the system the management and coaches envisioned?

I didn't agree with how the statement was presented. PK was not traded for Weber to make Price himself better.

I should had been more clear, I meant to say the narrative from the team was the trade was done because Weber is better suited to fit into the system the management and coaches want to play. The team wanted a safer, lower risk structure of play. Weber fits this idea better, PK does not.

Does this automatically make Price a better goalie? I'd argue maybe, maybe not. I think Price benefits more from a faster moving team in order to leverage his puck handling abilities and to act as the 3rd defenceman with his outlet passes. It's clear whatever vision of the defence they had this season is not benefiting Price at all. It's not Weber's fault, but it's also clear he isn't making Price better either.

Let's not misunderstand here, the reality is the team management, be it Therrien, the assistants or Bergevin or some combination of all of the above is what resulted in PK being traded. He wasn't traded because they wanted Price to be better. They traded him because they just didn't like him.

So, I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, but I do disagree with how it was presented.

 

[Rapala]

yes sir, every presser he comes up with a new sogan, "no excuses", but he sure has a few

This is Excellent
sogan
a particularly poor attempt at creating an identity.
derived from the english word soggy.

 

[Rapala]

I didn't even realize that the limit to fix the team had moved to the deadline from November.

I guess I missed the memo.

So can someone please confirm what the official deadline is now to finally address this team's biggest issues? Is it the trade deadline? Draft? UFA? Next year's training camp? Maybe in 2020? I need to update my calendar.

FWIW
The quarter century mark has been fixed in my mind ever since the year of "The Foxhole"

 

[Harry22]

I didn't even realize that the limit to fix the team had moved to the deadline from November.

I guess I missed the memo.

So can someone please confirm what the official deadline is now to finally address this team's biggest issues? Is it the trade deadline? Draft? UFA? Next year's training camp? Maybe in 2020? I need to update my calendar.

ESPN 2?