Marc Bergevin -'The answer is in that room'- Edition

[nhlfan9191]

Why don’t you do your own homework and provide your own 10 year span of drafting? Go check it out for yourself?

We’ve sucked the past 10 years in drafting. That’s why we’re on the verge of seeing our 4th GM in that time span. But will they finally clean out the guys in charge of scouting and mainly Timmins? I sure hope so.

 

[Roke]

Yes that’s why there is many other stats provided. Analyze how you see fit and how it compares to other teams

GP and Points/GP don't take into account draft position either .And the "top-100" bucket doesn't take into account the huge downslope in value of draft picks from #1 down into the 3rd round where it levels out a fair bit.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We’ve sucked the past 10 years in drafting. That’s why we’re on the verge of seeing our 4th GM in that time span. But will they finally clean out the guys in charge of scouting and mainly Timmins? I sure hope so.

Close your eyes when you look at the 2008-2011 years if that makes you feel better. You can look at the 2012-2017 Years which Bergevin was the GM

 

[Habs Halifax]

GP and Points/GP don't take into account draft position either .And the "top-100" bucket doesn't take into account the huge downslope in value of draft picks from #1 down into the 3rd round where it levels out a fair bit.

Average top 100 pick shows you an indicator of where each team typically drafted in the 1st 3 rounds and where this ranks vs other teams.

So it does show you draft position to some degree as an average over the years

 

[Roke]

Average top 100 pick shows you an indicator of where each team typically drafted in the 1st 3 rounds and where this ranks vs other teams.

So it does show you draft position to some degree as an average over the years

You can't look at these slopes and tell me that "top-100" is a good arbitrary bucket for getting an idea of how valuable the picks are. Picks early in the first round are incredibly valuable, a lot more than a fistful of picks in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.

If we move the arbitrary end-point to "top-10 picks" in your chosen time periods Bergevin had two. to the other time period's zero,

Marc Bergevin's had 2 of the 4 highest Habs draft picks since 1985 and he still hasn't managed to draft and develop an elite centre or use drafted & developed players to trade for an elite centre. Not great work considering he said the only way you get them is by drafting early.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Tony Marinaro is bashing the organization the entire season, then out of nowhere, he does a 180 and all media outlets are reporting that Subban was late to practice 18 times?

And we didn't hear that, once, during the season, in Montreal? Where they were already dragging him under the bus?

It was absurd and it was an insult to the intelligence of anyone with a brain cell.

 

[sheed36]

Yep.

Tony Marinaro is bashing the organization the entire season, then out of nowhere, he does a 180 and all media outlets are reporting that Subban was late to practice 18 times?

And we didn't hear that, once, during the season, in Montreal? Where they were already dragging him under the bus?

It was absurd and it was an insult to the intelligence of anyone with a brain cell.

Not only Tony but Chris Nilan did this as well. Tony was the first person I remember saying that Hab fans should maybe prepare themselves for a Subban trade that summer before anyone else was talking about the possibility. Tony was probably instructed by the Habs "braintrust" to start doing this since it did seem to come completely out of nowhere when it first started from him. Where's my foil hat again?

 

[nhlfan9191]

Close your eyes when you look at the 2008-2011 years if that makes you feel better. You can look at the 2012-2017 Years which Bergevin was the GM

Gainey and Gauthier got fired. We all know that span was terrible. Even as bad as that drafting was, those GM’s left a good core behind for Bergevin to inherit. If Bergevin is fired, the next GM will have a very difficult task. He’s left nothing special behind. Price and Weber are to old, and the rest are below average at best. Timmins absolutely has to go as well. His time passed a long time ago.

 

[Harry22]

Some of the best picks in the Habs last 20 years came from the management before Bergevin. Most of the picks weren’t even the obvious pick.

You say how the 2008-2011 drafts were terrible and yea they aren’t very good but it still got us our top scoring winger as we speak (Gallagher)

The picks made by Bergevin, if you disregard the obvious 3rd overall pick (a month in his tenure) haven’t been producing top players. When I mean top players, I mean regular top six role and producing. You would think the 2012-2014 drafts would start panning our by now but nope.

In the Gainey era, he produced one of the best goalie in his generation, a top winger with regular 30 goals seasons, a top six winger who is leading our team in scoring, a top defenseman who won the Norris trophy, another top defenseman who is captain of the Rangers. No player drafted by Bergevin comes close to that.

Bergevin inherited a fantastic core of young players and has not added anything of note to it. His great records are the work of players drafted by the previous era.

Was 2008-2011 bad? Sure it still got us our current leading scorer and the 2007 draft was the best in 30 years for this franchise.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Timmins absolutely has to go as well. His time passed a long time ago.

You mean the guy who drafted Price, Subban, McDonaugh, Sergachev, Chucky, Gally, Pac, Lehkonen and Mete?

Yeah he definitely has to go...

 

[nhlfan9191]

You mean the guy who drafted Price, Subban, McDonaugh, Sergachev, Chucky, Gally, Pac, Lehkonen and Mete?

Yeah he definitely has to go...

All those players were drafted 5+ years ago. Mete looked alright but he was nothing to drool about at the NHL level, although I hope he works out. Lehkonen put up 28 points on a good year. What is there to be boastful about? Timmins has been garbage for years. Anyone would’ve taken Sergachev when we did if he was still available. Not that it matters. We value wingers over elite defensive talents.

 

[Rapala]

Not only Tony but Chris Nilan did this as well. Tony was the first person I remember saying that Hab fans should maybe prepare themselves for a Subban trade that summer before anyone else was talking about the possibility. Tony was probably instructed by the Habs "braintrust" to start doing this since it did seem to come completely out of nowhere when it first started from him. Where's my foil hat again?

How many people wouldn't even admit there was a rift in the room? I remeber discussing it in depth on these boards at least a year perhaps even more before it came into vogue. I think Compile was deeply involved in the discussions at the time. Two clear factions were identified but once again the so called " knowledgable" people dismissed it out of hand.
Even though it quacked like a duck we were told it was something else entirely.

 

[Simarino]

Another highlight reel goal for Radu tonite. The genius really know how to bet on the right horses, Trade PK and loose Radu on back to back years and now we're stuck with a bunch of vanilla players that cant perform in the playoff like Pax Plek Weber Price and cie. This organization always hated high risk high reward players or players with strong personalities, it was like that back then with Lafleur,Chelios,Corson etc etc and it still like that 40 years later. Dont evolve morons

 

[Habs Halifax]

Gainey and Gauthier got fired. We all know that span was terrible. Even as bad as that drafting was, those GM’s left a good core behind for Bergevin to inherit. If Bergevin is fired, the next GM will have a very difficult task. He’s left nothing special behind. Price and Weber are to old, and the rest are below average at best. Timmins absolutely has to go as well. His time passed a long time ago.

Disagree about Timmins. He’s done very well considering our draft position

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

All those players were drafted 5+ years ago. Mete looked alright but he was nothing to drool about at the NHL level, although I hope he works out. Lehkonen put up 28 points on a good year. What is there to be boastful about? Timmins has been garbage for years. Anyone would’ve taken Sergachev when we did if he was still available. Not that it matters. We value wingers over elite defensive talents.

The key part of your comment is "in the last 5 years". Pray tell me what's the biggest difference between the last 5 years and tge ones before that? May it be management perhaps?

What I drool over is thinking of this:

McD-Subban
Mete-Serge
Price

Id like to have that as a starting point for any team I'd build.

Point is, I don't think Timmins is the problem. He's survived 3 different GMs before Bergevin. He'll probably survive Bergevin too.

My only beef with Timmins is that he should let someone else draft when it's time to pick forwards in the first round.

 

[nhlfan9191]

The key part of your comment is "in the last 5 years". Pray tell me what's the biggest difference between the last 5 years and tge ones before that? May it be management perhaps?

What I drool over is thinking of this:

McD-Subban
Mete-Serge
Price

Id like to have that as a starting point for any team I'd build.

Point is, I don't think Timmins is the problem. He's survived 3 different GMs before Bergevin. He'll probably survive Bergevin too.

My only beef with Timmins is that he should let someone else draft when it's time to pick forwards in the first round.

I have a problem with Timmins drafting the past 5 years. Or maybe it’s we’re awful at developing players, which is another knock against us. Not enough talent coming in. The GM’s deserve the most criticism out of anybody. We keep sending out a good portion of talent we do acquire for quick fixes or assets that aren’t or shouldn’t be holes. In no way would I ever defend that.

 

[Rapala]

Another highlight reel goal for Radu tonite. The genius really know how to bet on the right horses, Trade PK and loose Radu on back to back years and now we're stuck with a bunch of vanilla players that cant perform in the playoff like Pax Plek Weber Price and cie. This organization always hated high risk high reward players or players with strong personalities, it was like that back then with Lafleur,Chelios,Corson etc etc and it still like that 40 years later. Dont evolve morons

I never understood why people didn't understand he was an element we've sorely lacked for years. His physical makeup so similar to Jagr who played excellent hockey into his forties because his game was based on strong board work keep away and vision.
what a f***in' dunderhead and included in this group are posters who couldn't admit the value was there. You don't lead the K a couple of years running without a good measure of talent and desire. But seeing it wasn't the NHL his efforts got dismissed out of hand by many.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I have a problem with Timmins drafting the past 5 years. Or maybe it’s we’re awful at developing players, which is another knock against us. Not enough talent coming in. The GM’s deserve the most criticism out of anybody. We keep sending out a good portion of talent we do acquire for quick fixes or assets that aren’t or shouldn’t be holes. In no way would I ever defend that.

Development has been the issue more than drafting for me. Doesn't explain away some of the brain dead picks like Crisp, Koberstein and Pezzetta, but the development and philosophy organization wide is brutal.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Development has been the issue more than drafting for me. Doesn't explain away some of the brain dead picks like Crisp, Koberstein and Pezzetta, but the development and philosophy organization wide is brutal.

The development has been bad. But some of the blame has to go on the scouting team as well. They’ve struggled for long stretches throughout different periods of time. Maybe I’m being to hard on Timmins, but in an organization that takes no responsibility, it comes down to only opinion on who and shouldn’t take the bulk of the responsibility.

 

[WeThreeKings]

The development has been bad. But some of the blame has to go on the scouting team as well. They’ve struggled for long stretches throughout different periods of time. Maybe I’m being to hard on Timmins, but in an organization that takes no responsibility, it comes down to only opinion on who and shouldn’t take the bulk of the responsibility.

I wouldn't care if they fired Timmins and the entire scouting staff. I don't think a shred should remain in this organization. I think it should be a complete overhaul.

 

[Whitesnake]

The key part of your comment is "in the last 5 years". Pray tell me what's the biggest difference between the last 5 years and tge ones before that? May it be management perhaps?

What I drool over is thinking of this:

McD-Subban
Mete-Serge
Price

Id like to have that as a starting point for any team I'd build.

Point is, I don't think Timmins is the problem. He's survived 3 different GMs before Bergevin. He'll probably survive Bergevin too.

My only beef with Timmins is that he should let someone else draft when it's time to pick forwards in the first round.

Difference is that there are so many things happening, that you need to be as consistent as possible thorughout the years. Trades happen, injuries happen, it's impossible to be content with picks that happened 10 years ago. It's great to put Mete there....but Mete might be going in the Junior this year and who knows how he'll come back next year. Sergachev does prove that he,s a star already. Mete, while a good player is nowhere near him. And the day you him there is the day you have to look at every team and I can put a lot of players in that kind of list.

Not being THE problem does not mean that you shouldn't look at it. How many guys kept their job for so long? And does that mean that they are ALL bad except him? Could it be possible that at one piont, even if he's not awful, that you could look into a different direction? Pair of fresh eyes? While the direction is or isn't directed by management that a new head scout could come up with other ideas, other ways to evaluate and so on? I keep hearing how we would be done without him.....I mean...really? Other taems are doing great and they don't have him....if they can...why can't we? What would we have missed without him?

An organizatin should be versatile enough, not only to fix THE problem, but to make it better everywhere that it should. That's what makes an organziatino proactive, and that's what makes a "rebuild" go faster.

 

[CalgarySnow]

The notion of a secret management conspiracy to tarnish Subban is ridiculous. It's make-believe, without a shred of evidence. The biggest names in hockey were traded without any attempts to tarnish them. Esposito, Roy, Lafleur, Gretzky, etc., including Shea Weber himself -- where were the smear campaigns against them? Teams trade big names and hope the news fades and fans move on quickly. The LAST thing they want is more news coverage shining a spotlight on a controversial move.

Really no media tarnish? They said PK only did the hospital thing to be captain, I’m not even going to go there with Vanisheretty as Captain, funny he’s gone to Nashville and got the hospital involved there too, getting the kids to write to eat other. They said Markov hated PK, hated him so much he invited him to his wedding. Bergevin said trading PK was a win now thing and Weber would help them to the Cup, Nashville went to the finals and Habs went out in the 1st round again. Bergevin tried everything to tarnish PK to justify his trade when in reality most people have only good to say about PK, yes he’s a little Tigger-ish and I imagine he needs an on/off switch sometimes but he always comes across as eloquent, grateful and humble

 

[MaxDummy]

Bergevin said trading PK was a win now thing and Weber would help them to the Cup

I hate MB with a passion but I don't think he ever said that. At least I hope not for his sake. He would look so stupid

 

[sandviper]

I hate MB with a passion but I don't think he ever said that. At least I hope not for his sake. He would look so stupid

Yeah, I don’t like MB but I don’t think he ever said that either. I am pretty sure he has said he doesn’t believe in the whole “win now” and window of opportunity theory though. This is obviously true given the contracts he’s handed out to Alzner, Shaw and even Price. I can live with Price, but that Alzner contract... plus he added the modified NTC.

 

[Price is Wright]

Tony Marinaro is bashing the organization the entire season, then out of nowhere, he does a 180 and all media outlets are reporting that Subban was late to practice 18 times?

And we didn't hear that, once, during the season, in Montreal? Where they were already dragging him under the bus?

It was absurd and it was an insult to the intelligence of anyone with a brain cell.

I'll never get over people believing that. Subban got killed for everything he said that wasn't hunky dory but everyone just happened to miss him being late for practice? One missed practice without a reason like the hospital opening and it would have been front of the sports page: "$9 MILLION, CAN'T AFFORD A WATCH" but nah it's totally a conspiracy by the media to make Subban look good and now that he's in Nashville it's time to rip off the veil!