Line Combos: Mantha is now on the 4th line

[dragonballgtz]

This is a bad case scenario.

On one had we have a coach that has proven he cannot get the best from his players. After taking over as head coach players, some who looked like upcoming superstars, have regressed.

Now on the other hand we have an elite talent that was known to take games off and lack effort at times.

This mix is not good at all. Now I will say there is nothing wrong with Trash demoting Mantha. If he is not showing up then you demote the player or scratch him, even Datsyuk was scratched a few times during his rookie season. But I think it comes back to Trash not being the coach the Red Wings need to grow younger talent at the NHL level. Maybe Mantha still won't get it with another coach but it's a move the Red Wings should make, moving Trash, based on all other aspects of the way players have regressed under him.

 

[TheMule93]

I am sorry but if someone says "well bowman did so can I" then you best be as good as bowman.

You're right he, is but if he isnt winning he is going to be criticized. And rught now, his coaching style isnt working

so unless you're at least tied for the best coach in NHL history (with bowman) you cant try to emulate some of his coaching strategies? What should coaches do then? Only learn from and emulate coaches who are (perceived as) worse than them?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

so unless you're at least tied for the best coach in NHL history (with bowman) you cant try to emulate some of his coaching strategies? What should coaches do then? Only learn from and emulate coaches who are (perceived as) worse than them?

Thats right

Or just dont say i am doing it because bowman did it so as to give yourself more credence.

Demote mantha all ya want, but demote zetterberg or kronwall too for the exact same reasons

 

[Winger98]

You don't have to be arguably the greatest coach in the history of the game, but I think you do need something to back up your say a bit other than your current head coaching title. Even with Bowman's history, he couldn't take on Yzerman here. He tried that battle and lost. Blashill may or may not be right about some of the things he thinks, but picking public battles with vets (Z and his effort level after the Vancouver game earlier this year) or publicly demoting younger, future core type players like he's doing with Mantha carry a bit more risk for Blash than it would for a guy like Hitchcock or Tippett.

I really think that part of this past losing streak where we were getting hammered every other night it seemed was that Blashill lost the room.

 

[SoupGuru]

This is where people lose sight of the fact that players get demoted for effort, not production. "Well, Kronwall sucks too, and he's not getting demoted!" Oh, he does suck, but he's already giving you all he can.

 

[RedWingzz]

Mantha last 13 games, 3 pts and -9.

I usually disagree with Blashill, I am honestly ok with this. Mantha has been garbage for a while now. Hopefully this motivates him to pick up his compete level. He has not been good enough at all of late. I don't mind if Blash puts him there for a game or 2, however if he leaves him there longterm than I'll have an issue with it.

Ridiculous though how Nyquist and Z are still paired on the top line.

 

[cjm502]

The Bowman-Yzerman talk is ridiculous and is a completely different situation then this, Stevie was never reduced to playing on the 4th line because Scotty was upset. Different calibers of both coach and player. Different role for said player. Not sure why any of that was brought up.

Also, I have no problem with reducing a players ice time if they do not play up to expectations. The problem is it seems only Mantha and AA are susceptible to this treatment no matter how invisible everyone else is. If a coach wants to have the locker rooms ear, a good start would be not giving half of the players special treatment while shitting on the other half.

 

[Shaman464]

This is a bad case scenario.

On one had we have a coach that has proven he cannot get the best from his players. After taking over as head coach players, some who looked like upcoming superstars, have regressed.

Now on the other hand we have an elite talent that was known to take games off and lack effort at times.

This mix is not good at all. Now I will say there is nothing wrong with Trash demoting Mantha. If he is not showing up then you demote the player or scratch him, even Datsyuk was scratched a few times during his rookie season. But I think it comes back to Trash not being the coach the Red Wings need to grow younger talent at the NHL level. Maybe Mantha still won't get it with another coach but it's a move the Red Wings should make, moving Trash, based on all other aspects of the way players have regressed under him.

Who looked like superstars? And who has regressed? Larkin and Mantha are both having their best seasons right now and both look to be reaching their realistic potential. So seriously who were these 'superstars'?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I remember when Babcock finally got sick of Franzen's floating (think it was during the Nashville series) and he demoted him to the third line. Don't think it made any difference.

 

[Heaton]

This is where people lose sight of the fact that players get demoted for effort, not production. "Well, Kronwall sucks too, and he's not getting demoted!" Oh, he does suck, but he's already giving you all he can.

This mentality is why this team sucks. Production is all that matters at the end of the day, Abdelkader has no business in the top 6, but he 'works hard' so he gets to put up 2 points in 10 games and have his IT increased.

Mantha has been absolutely ice cold, but he has no value as a 4th liner, may as well healthy scratch him if he's not going to play in the top 6.

 

[RedWingzz]

This mentality is why this team sucks. Production is all that matters at the end of the day, Abdelkader has no business in the top 6, but he 'works hard' so he gets to put up 2 points in 10 games and have his IT increased.

Mantha has been absolutely ice cold, but he has no value as a 4th liner, may as well healthy scratch him if he's not going to play in the top 6.

The way he has played of late, he does deserve to be healthy scratched though. I am usually a Mantha supporter, and I hate 99% of the decisions Blashill makes. I like this move. Send him the message that the way he has been playing is not acceptable. I think the 4th line is a bit harsh, but it sends a message. I'm interested in seeing Mantha's response. Personally I'd switch Glen and Mantha, but the Nielsen-Helm-Glen 3rd line has been pretty good, so I understand Blashill's reasoning in keeping them together.

The bottom line is that Mantha needs to play better. He always talks about how he wants to be great in interviews, and wants to be a difference maker. He has coasted far too often in the last 15 games. We already have inconsistent 2nd line scorers, we need Mantha to be more than this, but it's looking more and more like he's just another 45-55 point 2nd line inconsistent scorer.

 

[Heaton]

The way he has played of late, he does deserve to be healthy scratched though. I am usually a Mantha supporter, and I hate 99% of the decisions Blashill makes. I like this move. Send him the message that the way he has been playing is not acceptable. I think the 4th line is a bit harsh, but it sends a message. I'm interested in seeing Mantha's response. Personally I'd switch Glen and Mantha, but the Nielsen-Helm-Glen 3rd line has been pretty good, so I understand Blashill's reasoning in keeping them together.

The bottom line is that Mantha needs to play better. He always talks about how he wants to be great in interviews, and wants to be a difference maker. He has coasted far too often in the last 15 games. We already have inconsistent 2nd line scorers, we need Mantha to be more than this, but it's looking more and more like he's just another 45-55 point 2nd line inconsistent scorer.

It's a useless message since Blashill doesn't hold any other player accountable for their actions. You won't see Abdelakder, Helm, Tatar or Nyquist demoted or any message sent. And please don't tell me that they never need to get a message through to them, Nyquist and Tatar were HORRIBLE last year overall.

 

[RedWingzz]

It's a useless message since Blashill doesn't hold any other player accountable for their actions. You won't see Abdelakder, Helm, Tatar or Nyquist demoted or any message sent. And please don't tell me that they never need to get a message through to them, Nyquist and Tatar were HORRIBLE last year overall.

Abdelkader and Helm are in different roles, so they don't really relate. We don't look for Helm to put up numbers (although with his salary he should contribute a bit). Helm has never had any issues whatsoever with his compete level. He is one of the few players who is always trying. Abby did see time on the 4th line last year, he's different than Mantha though in that he is not simply a scorer.

Tatar and Nyquist I somewhat agree with you, especially last year. In my opinion though, Tatar is always trying, and I have never questioned his effort. Even when Tatar is playing like garbage, you can at least say that he looks like he cares. Blashill loves Nyquist for whatever reason, and never holds him accountable for anything.

Still, 3 pts and -9 in 13 games, where he has seen a good amount of ice time, and PP time as well isn't helping his case. Does Blashill treat the kids differently? Yes. Is it always fair? No. Can Mantha play better? Yes. If he was playing better would he be punished? No.

 

[Redder Winger]

All the people justifying Blashill's decisions don't seem to address the fact that there have been plenty of underperforming Red Wings who never get dropped to the 2/3rds of line 4 line.

 

[Ezekial]

It's not an ideal move but it's too early to call it useless.

 

[lilidk]

can someone please move Blush to the GR

 

[Heaton]

Abdelkader and Helm are in different roles, so they don't really relate. We don't look for Helm to put up numbers (although with his salary he should contribute a bit). Helm has never had any issues whatsoever with his compete level. He is one of the few players who is always trying. Abby did see time on the 4th line last year, he's different than Mantha though in that he is not simply a scorer.

Tatar and Nyquist I somewhat agree with you, especially last year. In my opinion though, Tatar is always trying, and I have never questioned his effort. Even when Tatar is playing like garbage, you can at least say that he looks like he cares. Blashill loves Nyquist for whatever reason, and never holds him accountable for anything.

Still, 3 pts and -9 in 13 games, where he has seen a good amount of ice time, and PP time as well isn't helping his case. Does Blashill treat the kids differently? Yes. Is it always fair? No. Can Mantha play better? Yes. If he was playing better would he be punished? No.

This doesn't bode well for the future of the Wings. Mantha is easily the most important piece we have and if he turns into just another 2nd line, secondary scoring role player, we're really f***ed.

 

[jkutswings]

This doesn't bode well for the future of the Wings. Mantha is easily the most important piece we have and if he turns into just another 2nd line, secondary scoring role player, we're really ****ed.

Realistically, I think Blashill needs to be replaced before they can be sure what Mantha really is, but if I had to guess, I'd say he's a bigger Tatar with more talent but less effort. I think Larkin's ceiling of tweener 1C/2C is their most important piece currently on the roster.

And yes, they're in trouble.

 

[SoupGuru]

It's not about production.
It's not about underperforming.

It's about effort. If you are competing every game and putting in the effort, it doesn't matter if you score goals or not. Honestly. I know you guys will say it all goes back to scoring more goals than the other team and that's true, but that is a system or coaching issue, not a player issue.

The least a player can do is try hard. If you can't try hard, find another job.

 

[TheOtherOne]

how exactly does Mantha have "no value as a 4th liner"? I thought he's supposed to be an elite goalscorer who should be able to compete against other teams' top lines. How is it that just because you put him on Glendening's wing all of a sudden he's useless? Maybe he should try working harder if that's really the case...

 

[jkutswings]

It's not about production.
It's not about underperforming.

It's about effort. If you are competing every game and putting in the effort, it doesn't matter if you score goals or not. Honestly. I know you guys will say it all goes back to scoring more goals than the other team and that's true, but that is a system or coaching issue, not a player issue.

The least a player can do is try hard. If you can't try hard, find another job.

But it has to be both, relative to salary and role and expectations.

If a team is counting on a guy to score goals, and he's giving 100 percent, but has zero goals in 30 games, that's unacceptable.

Otherwise, having a roster filled with players TRYING yet failing wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Ezekial]

how exactly does Mantha have "no value as a 4th liner"? I thought he's supposed to be an elite goalscorer who should be able to compete against other teams' top lines. How is it that just because you put him on Glendening's wing all of a sudden he's useless? Maybe he should try working harder if that's really the case...

Glendening hasn't been on the fourth line for a majority of the season. Helm-Nielsen-Glenny have been a regular matchup fixture.
Like I said in my first post, they're going to be seeing a different center like how they were rotating wings with AA and Frk

 

[bellringer77]

Possibly, but Blashill is almost certainly not coming back next seasom if we’re in a similar position by the end of the year, and the player’s know that.

That would be a nightmare if he came back

 

[Run the Jewels]

Leading goal scorer on the 4th line. The #StealthTank is a real thing!

 

[cjm502]

But it has to be both, relative to salary and role and expectations.

If a team is counting on a guy to score goals, and he's giving 100 percent, but has zero goals in 30 games, that's unacceptable.

Otherwise, having a roster filled with players TRYING yet failing wouldn't be a problem.

This 100%. I used to dislike nothing more then a lazy skilled player, but over these last few years I have grown to equally dislike when a player with little skill gets rewarded simply because of hard work and not production. Both Babcock and Blash are experts at rewarding hard work over results.