Line Combos: Mantha is now on the 4th line

[Redder Winger]

This is where people lose sight of the fact that players get demoted for effort, not production. "Well, Kronwall sucks too, and he's not getting demoted!" Oh, he does suck, but he's already giving you all he can.

Yeah, I don't buy it.
Effort is physical and mental.
I watch Justin Abdelkader made weak-ass passes to nobody in particular. I watch Glendening ice the puck unpressured with under a minute to go in the game, leading to the deep zone faceoff that cost the Red Wings dearly last week.

Those are effort plays.
Take the extra two strides before you clear it. If you don't have a pass, put it on net or behind the net.

 

[raymond23]

Not a fan. I liked him on Larkin's wing (they've been an incredibly dominant line regardless of production) and I think you just need to give him time to figure it out. I really don't see it as an effort thing as much as him still trying to figure out his game.

I'd rather Blashill put give him different opportunities to succeed. Like playing with Z or moving up to the half wall on the powerplay.

He's never going to be the player it seems like a lot of people want him to be.

 

[Redder Winger]

The way he has played of late, he does deserve to be healthy scratched though. I am usually a Mantha supporter, and I hate 99% of the decisions Blashill makes. I like this move. Send him the message that the way he has been playing is not acceptable. I think the 4th line is a bit harsh, but it sends a message. I'm interested in seeing Mantha's response. Personally I'd switch Glen and Mantha, but the Nielsen-Helm-Glen 3rd line has been pretty good, so I understand Blashill's reasoning in keeping them together.

The bottom line is that Mantha needs to play better. He always talks about how he wants to be great in interviews, and wants to be a difference maker. He has coasted far too often in the last 15 games. We already have inconsistent 2nd line scorers, we need Mantha to be more than this, but it's looking more and more like he's just another 45-55 point 2nd line inconsistent scorer.

Mantha's shooting and hitting stats over the last 13
36 shots
12 hits
Over the previous 13 games
32 shots
13 hits

Is it a little bit possible that during that 13 game streak (7-5-12 -3) he had some puck luck?

It's also pretty clear that the 2nd PP unit has struggled recently.
Mantha had 4PP goals and 1 PP assist during that previous streak.

Also, at some point, Blashill transitioned from Zetterberg-Mantha to Larkin-Mantha.

Maybe Mantha needs that experienced playmaker.

 

[RedWingzz]

Mantha's shooting and hitting stats over the last 13
36 shots
12 hits
Over the previous 13 games
32 shots
13 hits

Is it a little bit possible that during that 13 game streak (7-5-12 -3) he had some puck luck?

It's also pretty clear that the 2nd PP unit has struggled recently.
Mantha had 4PP goals and 1 PP assist during that previous streak.

Also, at some point, Blashill transitioned from Zetterberg-Mantha to Larkin-Mantha.

Maybe Mantha needs that experienced playmaker.

Sure, but I'm just talking from an effort perspective. All I am saying is that maybe this lights a fire under Mantha, and he comes out pissed off, and is set to prove Blashill wrong. I hope that's his response. Regardless of stats, from an effort standpoint, he has not been anywhere near as good as he had been in the first 20 games.

I'm a Mantha supporter. It's not like I'm anti-Mantha, take a look at my picture. I just think he is capable of being better and play with more consistency.

 

[Dotter]

The thread title suggest he's going to be on the 4th line when it was just a practice. Not even sure he starts on the 4th line tomorrow....

 

[Shaman464]

Yeah, I don't buy it.
Effort is physical and mental.
I watch Justin Abdelkader made weak-ass passes to nobody in particular. I watch Glendening ice the puck unpressured with under a minute to go in the game, leading to the deep zone faceoff that cost the Red Wings dearly last week.

Those are effort plays.
Take the extra two strides before you clear it. If you don't have a pass, put it on net or behind the net.

Justin Abdelkader is also on pace to hit nearly 50 points this season. I hate him as a top 6 winger, but he's been one of the most effective this season.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Well then 95% of the team qualifies then because it's a team sport, and no one on the team is living up to his potential.

Why don't you give us a quick ranking of Wings players by how close they are playing to their actual potential. My guess is that Mantha is pretty close to the bottom of your list.

I know that this will come as a surprise to you, but our team is actually playing pretty close to its potential this year. Sadly, people just don't want to admit how bad we actually are. Denial is a very powerful drug.

My money says that Mantha is off of the "fourth line" before the eight minute mark of the first period.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Who does Blashill think he is, Babcock? Taking a good player and moving him to the 4th line

 

[Redder Winger]

Justin Abdelkader is also on pace to hit nearly 50 points this season. I hate him as a top 6 winger, but he's been one of the most effective this season.

So?
Mantha has points and goals and he's getting sent to David Booth's line.

Athanasiou was playing well till he got put on the 2/3rds of a 4th line.

This is how you kill your prospects.

For years, Red Wings fans said "Keep your prospects in Grand Rapids until they're good enough for a top 6 role."

Now when they get there, you're absolutely fine with them playing bullshit minutes and bouncing around from line to line in game.

 

[Redder Winger]

Sure, but I'm just talking from an effort perspective. All I am saying is that maybe this lights a fire under Mantha, and he comes out pissed off, and is set to prove Blashill wrong. I hope that's his response. Regardless of stats, from an effort standpoint, he has not been anywhere near as good as he had been in the first 20 games.

I'm a Mantha supporter. It's not like I'm anti-Mantha, take a look at my picture. I just think he is capable of being better and play with more consistency.

Great.
Tell me all the times Blashill benched Larkin on line 4 last year?
How many times Tatar or Nyquist played on line 4 when they struggled?


I'm a little tired of seeing coach Blashill only demand accountability from two players on this squad.

 

[dragonballgtz]

Who looked like superstars? And who has regressed? Larkin and Mantha are both having their best seasons right now and both look to be reaching their realistic potential. So seriously who were these 'superstars'?

Nyquist and Tatar looked like they should have been more, it's been debated on here before. I'm personally on the side that thinks Trash ruined them. Sheahan went from looking like he should be on 2nd line duties to one of the worst players.

When Trash took over you could tell players were not living up to what they could do.

 

[Shaman464]

Nyquist and Tatar looked like they should have been more, it's been debated on here before. I'm personally on the side that thinks Trash ruined them. Sheahan went from looking like he should be on 2nd line duties to one of the worst players.

When Trash took over you could tell players were not living up to what they could do.

In no universe were Sheahan, Tatar and Nyquist budding superstars. They were draft, developed and for the most part are good roleplayers.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Nyquist and Tatar looked like they should have been more, it's been debated on here before. I'm personally on the side that thinks Trash ruined them. Sheahan went from looking like he should be on 2nd line duties to one of the worst players.

When Trash took over you could tell players were not living up to what they could do.

You forgot Smith and Dekeyser as well. None or these guys were ever going to be game changers, but it is inarguable that they ALL regressed, often times in consecutive years.

 

[Shaman464]

Great.
Tell me all the times Blashill benched Larkin on line 4 last year?
How many times Tatar or Nyquist played on line 4 when they struggled?


I'm a little tired of seeing coach Blashill only demand accountability from two players on this squad.

Because most players that aren't elite (McDavid, Crosby, etc) get bounced up and down the lineup on most teams? Because this is only a sin to people who likely never played a sport that didn't involve hitting X to skate? This isn't Xbox where players are just spots in a lineup and sometimes younger players need to be motivated to come out and play?

Seriously, this isn't some mind bender. AA and Mantha both have long histories of compete level issues. Sometimes, when they are coasting, they need to be reminded that ice time is earned. You want to talk about Tatar and Nyquist? Well Tatar has been good for 20+ goal pace every season for the last 5 seasons and is on pace for 26 this season. As for Nyquist, until this season he's been one of the better playmakers on the team. And while both can and are streaky, neither are that way because they decide to phone in games for long periods.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Because most players that aren't elite (McDavid, Crosby, etc) get bounced up and down the lineup on most teams? Because this is only a sin to people who likely never played a sport that didn't involve hitting X to skate? This isn't Xbox where players are just spots in a lineup and sometimes younger players need to be motivated to come out and play?

Seriously, this isn't some mind bender. AA and Mantha both have long histories of compete level issues. Sometimes, when they are coasting, they need to be reminded that ice time is earned. You want to talk about Tatar and Nyquist? Well Tatar has been good for 20+ goal pace every season for the last 5 seasons and is on pace for 26 this season. As for Nyquist, until this season he's been one of the better playmakers on the team. And while both can and are streaky, neither are that way because they decide to phone in games for long periods.

So your saying with absolute certainty that neither nyquist nor tatar either last year or this, had a stretch of play in which their effort level and performance wasnt up to par?

 

[Shaman464]

So your saying with absolute certainty that neither nyquist nor tatar either last year or this, had a stretch of play in which their effort level and performance wasnt up to par?

Not to the extent that Mantha or AA have had, no.

 

[cjm502]

Because most players that aren't elite (McDavid, Crosby, etc) get bounced up and down the lineup on most teams? Because this is only a sin to people who likely never played a sport that didn't involve hitting X to skate? This isn't Xbox where players are just spots in a lineup and sometimes younger players need to be motivated to come out and play?

Seriously, this isn't some mind bender. AA and Mantha both have long histories of compete level issues. Sometimes, when they are coasting, they need to be reminded that ice time is earned. You want to talk about Tatar and Nyquist? Well Tatar has been good for 20+ goal pace every season for the last 5 seasons and is on pace for 26 this season. As for Nyquist, until this season he's been one of the better playmakers on the team. And while both can and are streaky, neither are that way because they decide to phone in games for long periods.

What does scoring 20+ goals a season have to do with compete level? Mantha could score 20+ goals at 50% compete level, that doesnt mean its okay. Nyquist has caught heat throughout his career for going on dry streaks, I think nearly everyone knows he can turn completely invisible for stretches.
Most fans along with myself seem more bothered by the fact Blash only has the balls to punish the young blood, if you're a vet on this team you can do no wrong. Really, that seems to be how this entire organization has been run for a while, people are sick of the country club mentality.

 

[Redder Winger]

Because most players that aren't elite (McDavid, Crosby, etc) get bounced up and down the lineup on most teams? Because this is only a sin to people who likely never played a sport that didn't involve hitting X to skate? This isn't Xbox where players are just spots in a lineup and sometimes younger players need to be motivated to come out and play?

Seriously, this isn't some mind bender. AA and Mantha both have long histories of compete level issues. Sometimes, when they are coasting, they need to be reminded that ice time is earned. You want to talk about Tatar and Nyquist? Well Tatar has been good for 20+ goal pace every season for the last 5 seasons and is on pace for 26 this season. As for Nyquist, until this season he's been one of the better playmakers on the team. And while both can and are streaky, neither are that way because they decide to phone in games for long periods.

You didn't answer the question.
Last year, when Larkin was struggling and looking like he really didn't belong in the NHL, how many times did he play on line 4?
When he wasn't backchecking hard and covering nobody on the 3-on-3s and letting his guy score, how many times did he get put on line 4?

I can tell you this. He played under 10 minutes once last year. If I recall correctly, he was injured in that game.

How about Tatar? Nyquist? They aren't stars. Shoudn't they be subject to the same rules?

How about Abdelkader? He had a TERRIBLE season last year. He played under 10 minutes twice. The game he got hurt and the game he came back.

So like I said - I'm all for accountability.
But show me that it matters for more than two guys on the team.

Right now it seems like Blashill is a coward who only demands accountability from the unestablished players.

Maybe that's why this team underachieves. Because the veterans get a free ride.

 

[chances14]

You forgot Smith and Dekeyser as well. None or these guys were ever going to be game changers, but it is inarguable that they ALL regressed, often times in consecutive years.

they didn't regress. they just never really progressed from the time they got here and then when they put into roles above their playing ability, they were exposed

I get that everyone around here thinks blashill is the devil, but at some point we need to actually start scrutinizing the actual player for their poor play, not just blame the coach every time a player doesn't live up to hfboards expectations

 

[Grimm]

Not an issue of Mantha being demoted. The issue is the free freaking passes some of these clowns have gotten the past year and a half and he seemingly seems to be the ONLY one who gets singled out time after time (with AA second). It's a joke and seems personal IMO.

 

[SoupGuru]

Come on, do you honestly think there are other guys on the team that float more than Mantha? Seriously?

 

[jkutswings]

Come on, do you honestly think there are other guys on the team that float more than Mantha? Seriously?

No. But, for the sake of argument, let's say Mantha floats 20 percent of the time, and that garners a healthy scratch once every 10 games. Or a demotion every so often.

Then, if Green floats 5 percent of the time, and Nyquist floats 5 percent of the time, and Larkin floats 5 percent of the time, that should earn them a healthy scratch once every 40 games. Or a demotion at one quarter of the frequency applied to Mantha.

It certainly doesn't have to be an exact ratio across the board, but if a coach isn't willing to go that far, at least on occasion, in demanding accountability from EVERYBODY...then nobody outside of his short "doghouse" list has any reason to listen to him.

 

[Redder Winger]

Not an issue of Mantha being demoted. The issue is the free freaking passes some of these clowns have gotten the past year and a half and he seemingly seems to be the ONLY one who gets singled out time after time (with AA second). It's a joke and seems personal IMO.

I don't think it's personal.
I think Blash internally understands that he's not an NHL level coach, so he doesn't f*** with guys who were in the NHL before him.
But the guys who he beat to the NHL? Sure seems like he's not afraid to push them around.

 

[Red Stanley]

If we're going to make this a veteran vs kids issue, why is Larkin used as an example of an untouchable veteran? Also, Nielsen was demoted and he's a veteran. Plenty of the people who get blasted have spent time on the 3rd and 4th lines.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I was as angry as I have been with Mantha all season the other night. He has played abysmal hockey for most of this month.

Not surprised. He better be able to earn back ice time quickly, but he probably deserves a big think on what he has been bringing to the ice lately, it hasn't been nearly enough.