Manitoba Moose / MTS Centre group talking to NHL

[LadyStanley]

Mod note: let's keep the discussion focused on Manitoba and Winnipeg, not other regions.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Still no one wants to comment on the Chipman video. not sure why?
Anyway, here is a piece of the Corp Search.. There are two major shareholders, MMLP and Osmington Inc.. As for Crocus, they are gone and have zero interest in MTSC..
__________

It was a very nice video almost as good as the show these guys in T.O. did last year:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090605/toronto_nhlteam_090605?hub=Toronto

As for Osmington, what is your point?

As for Crocus, I'm taking it you saw nothing wrong with their involvement with Chipman and how the MTS was originally financed ?

 

[TrentSteele]

He is walking a fine line.....if he drums up the NHL too much the interest in the Moose will falter. I get that. But....why be vocal about it at all then??? What benefit does it serve? Declining the interview with Mansbridge would actually drum up more interest in an NHL team and maintain the AHL support. If Chipman was "unwilling" to talk to Mansbridge about NHL relocation "at this time"...it would keep the drums beating for a NHL return...but not impact the AHL support one bit.

You ask a great question, why would he even talk about it? I think your notion that declining the interview would drum up more interest is stretching a bit. Especially if nobody knew that he declined the interview. I don't expect there would have been headlines on the front page reading "CHIPMAN DECLINES INTERVIEW". Someone not doing something is rarely ever news worthy.

Well...the semantics of it is he was asked if it was a realistic expectation....and he avoided both words. He said he thinks it is "possible" and that a team under this new CBA "MIGHT" work in Winnipeg.
I don't know his motives...and neither do you...but he is talking very conservatively. So...I guess...if he doesn't talk confidently...he is simply protecting his AHL market and not hyping up the Winnipeg citizens over nothing...but when he talks with more certainty...he is bang on in eluding that Winnipeg is a no-brainer NHL market.
This guy should spark up a career as a politician...since no matter what he says...it is the right thing to say for his believers....err...followers...errr...clergy...err...I dunno...guys that want certain things that they can envision from his words. Not sure how better to put it.
You're reaching into his words to find things that simply put...aren't there. Or that have a remote possibility of being there...so you are taking his words and finding things to support your views instead of just listening to what he is saying. Simply put...I don't care. I don't want Winnipeg to get a team if in 5 or 10 years they may lose it again. So I am "sceptical" of stuff like this....that is all. I don't buy it hook line and sinker. Just like I didn't buy Balsillie's "Makeitseven.ca" stuff hook line and sinker. Although I believe his overall plan would work quite well.

I'm not sure how you can say I am reaching into his words. He says, "I think it's possible". I take that to mean that he thinks it is possible.

You look for more in Chipman's words than what is really there. Yet...you posted the video and asked for comments about it....I commented about it...in pretty solid detail, and you are seemingly upset that I did so.

I didn't post the video, I'm simply commenting on it just like you. You should keep better track of who you are talking about. It's not that I don't like your comments, it's the fact that you say that you see things "as they are". Unless you are Mark Chipman himself, then you cannot say with any certainty that the way you perceive his comments is true, just like I cannot say the way I see them is true.

 

[Fugu]

MOD: We decided to re-open this thread, as speculation about other markets without an NHL team have been allowed, with perhaps far less to go on than some of the cited info here.

People who insist on taking the thread off-topic will be banned from the thread. This is your only warning, so stay on track or don't bother posting.

 

[hexrae]

Well, if speculation is allowed...

Rumour has it that the Thrashers have been sold and an announcement is to be made after the Olympics/NHL trade deadline.

Now, even as a Winnipegger, I'm attributing this to nothing more than internet hearsay. But still, it makes for interesting discussion.

 

[Brodie]

I think those rumors have died down of late... they seemed to be growing rapidly without any media response but as soon as denials started people seemed to stop talking.

For what it's worth, Winnipeg is in a very nice position. Especially with Chipman now having $130 million in cash laying around.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

Well, if speculation is allowed...

Rumour has it that the Thrashers have been sold and an announcement is to be made after the Olympics/NHL trade deadline.

Now, even as a Winnipegger, I'm attributing this to nothing more than internet hearsay. But still, it makes for interesting discussion.

I clicked on the 'rumour' link expecting to be directed to a page containing the rumour

Part-and-parcel of this rumour appears to be the idea that the Manitoba Moose would be moving to Saskatoon. It seems unlikely that the city would support the WHL Blades and the AHL whatever-they-would-be-called-in-Saskatoon.

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that the Moose relocation was tacked on somewhere along the way to make this all sound more believable .. have enough dominoes fallen that people are starting to ask "But what about the Blades?"

 

[Tendencyman]

Winnipeg would be an ideal place for NHL team relocation if they have a NHL arena.

I doubt GB wants to move a NHL team to an AHL arena.

 

[TRVIPERS]

Winnipeg would be an ideal place for NHL team relocation if they have a NHL arena.

I doubt GB wants to move a NHL team to an AHL arena.

QUOTE:from Winnipeg Free Press

"Here's what Bettman told the Reuters news agency on Tuesday: "While we play to 93 to 94 per cent capacity, we'd like to play to 100 per cent capacity," Bettman said. "A 15,000-16,000 seat arena might work better in some markets than a 19,000-seat arena."


A 15,000- to 16,000-seat arena? Funny thing -- Winnipeg just happens to have one of those sitting on Portage Avenue, a shiny new building with loads of luxury boxes and precisely 15,002 seats for hockey."


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/hockey/mts-centre-has-nhl-capacity-78501967.html

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Winnipeg would be an ideal place for NHL team relocation if they have a NHL arena.

I doubt GB wants to move a NHL team to an AHL arena.

Well considering the Rexall Place in Edmonton has a single concourse, far fewer luxury seating areas than MTS Centre, fewer restaurants and a capacity of 16.8K, in a suburban location, etc., I'm not sure that Edmonton doesn't have a more AHL building than the MTS Centre at the moment. Good thing Edmonton is looking at a replacement.

The MTS Centre is simply not as a bad as many people suggest. And I've been to a lot of NHL buildings.

What is the ideal size for an NHL arena in a market of Winnipeg's size? It's hard to say exactly, but if I were to build one from scratch, I wouldn't make it much over 17K. You need to limit supply of tickets to charge premium prices for any market and to ensure season ticket renewals year after year. If they can add 1,000 to 2,000 or so in capacity with suites above the upper bowl, etc., that will be gravy. I'm not worried about the arena at all.

Here what Bettman, who you referenced, had to state a few weeks ago on the issue:

If you want a new National Hockey League team, you’ll definitely need a spanking new arena, or at least one that’s been gussied up in a significant way. But that doesn’t mean it need be a super-sized arena, Commissioner Gary Bettman said at the Reuters Global Media Summit.

“While we play to 93 to 94 percent capacity, we’d like to play to 100 percent capacity,†Bettman said. “A 15,000-16,000 seat arena might work better in some markets than a 19,000 seat arena.â€

http://blogs.reuters.com/summits/2009/12/01/nhl-commish-bigger-not-always-better/

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Winnipeg was mentioned again in the media on Thursday:

From the Toronto Sun:

More pressing for the NHL in the short term, however, is ironing out the Phoenix situation.

When asked if Ice/Edge was working on financing or trying to recruit more owners into the group, Daly replied:

“There are a couple of things that are more specific I can’t go into … the structure of the transaction needs to be defined a little more. I know they’re working hard and they’ve made some progress.”

While rumours of a transfer of the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg have sprung up this week (without much foundation, apparently), don’t discount Winnipeg coming up as a possible destination if the Phoenix deal falls apart and a relocation scenario needs to be considered.

Link:

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/vancouver2010/hockey/2010/02/18/12937936.html

GHOST

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

Some interesting recent tweets:

Darren Dreger:

"There have been no discussions with the NHL about relocating Atl to Wpg. That doesn't mean Wpg isn't a target for relocation."

http://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/statuses/9253167827

James Mirtle:

"That Winnipeg rumour is everywhere lately for some reason... if anything, a non-sale in Phoenix could lead there perhaps."

http://twitter.com/mirtle/statuses/9253211745

 

[Fourier]

Well considering the Rexall Place in Edmonton has a single concourse, far fewer luxury seating areas than MTS Centre, fewer restaurants and a capacity of 16.8K, in a suburban location, etc., I'm not sure that Edmonton doesn't have a more AHL building than the MTS Centre at the moment. Good thing Edmonton is looking at a replacement.

The MTS Centre is simply not as a bad as many people suggest. And I've been to a lot of NHL buildings.

What is the ideal size for an NHL arena in a market of Winnipeg's size? It's hard to say exactly, but if I were to build one from scratch, I wouldn't make it much over 17K. You need to limit supply of tickets to charge premium prices for any market and to ensure season ticket renewals year after year. If they can add 1,000 to 2,000 or so in capacity with suites above the upper bowl, etc., that will be gravy. I'm not worried about the arena at all.

Here what Bettman, who you referenced, had to state a few weeks ago on the issue:




http://blogs.reuters.com/summits/2009/12/01/nhl-commish-bigger-not-always-better/

GHOST

Having spent a good part of my life in Rexall and having had a tour of the MTS I would say that your point above does ring true in many ways. (Though Rexall is not really in a "suburban" location.)

 

[Jeffrey93]

I'm not sure that Edmonton doesn't have a more AHL building than the MTS Centre at the moment. Good thing Edmonton is looking at a replacement.

I underlined and bolded the key word in this statement. Edmonton may have more of an AHL building than Winnipeg...but that doesn't change the fact that the MTS Centre is an AHL building.

I wouldn't make it much over 17K. You need to limit supply of tickets to charge premium prices for any market and to ensure season ticket renewals year after year. If they can add 1,000 to 2,000 or so in capacity with suites above the upper bowl, etc., that will be gravy. I'm not worried about the arena at all.

You should be worried about it, that doesn't mean it won't work or can't work...but it is a pretty big issue. I'd think the type of market that would benefit most from a 15,000 to 16,000 arena, like Bettman suggested, would be a small market (like Winnipeg) that has an absurd amount of money (unlike Winnipeg).
However many seats an arena has less than around 18,000 means there are that many less 'cheap seats'...the easy sell seats that anyone can afford. So if you have a market that has an awful lot of wealth it might make sense to play in a smaller arena to drive up demand and remove the 'cheap seats'...I really don't think Winnipeg fits as the ideal market to do something like this.
Even that JetsOwner site has the cheapest ticket at $45 (keep in mind this site is intentionally trying to make their suggested ticket prices as cheap/reasonable as possible. They also tack on a $500 per season "licensing fee" for season tickets which would bring them up to (as per their suggestions) $5,700 to $2,040. The Flames season tickets range from $6,400 for club seats to $850. Because of the bigger building they have a bigger range.
My point is basically that because MTS Centre is smaller it means the cheapest season ticket in the house would be 2.5x more expensive than in Calgary. The arena will put a huge burden on the market that other markets don't have to deal with...the rich folk buy the pricey tickets and the average joes buy the cheap seats....in Winnipeg the building will create the need to only have prices geared towards the upper-middle class and up.

It's cause for concern. That doesn't mean I don't think it can happen....I just mean it will definitely be an issue. If the team slumps for 5 years, the cap goes up, exchange rate widens, etc., etc. means having to charge that much because of a smaller capacity will become a larger and larger issue. Let's face it...even if there was an 18,000 seat arena in Winnipeg there would still be some potential issues with it being a small Canadian market. Having the smallest arena in the NHL would just inflate those already present issues from minor issues to rather large ones.

 

[TrentSteele]

Another rumour was that Gary Bettman was in Winnipeg around the end of Jan. while returning from Edmonton, and that he was here to sign/witness a Letter of Intent...for what is unknown. This rumour was denied by Bill Daly.

If we just put Daly's denial aside for a second, and talk about the LOI, we might conclude that if there was a non-disclosure agreement in it, that he wouldn't be able to talk about it anyways, so it is best to just deny that it ever happened. The other question would be what does GB have the authority to sign a LOI for. He would have the authority to sign something on behalf of the Coyotes. If ownership of the Thrashers were in town (another rumour that has been denied), I suppose he would be a witness to it. I don't really think he would have the authority to sign anything on their behalf if they weren't in town.

This rumour hasn't been mentioned as much as some others, however I think that many of the latest rumours have stemmed from this one.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Another rumour was that Gary Bettman was in Winnipeg around the end of Jan. while returning from Edmonton, and that he was here to sign/witness a Letter of Intent...for what is unknown. This rumour was denied by Bill Daly.

If we just put Daly's denial aside for a second, and talk about the LOI, we might conclude that if there was a non-disclosure agreement in it, that he wouldn't be able to talk about it anyways, so it is best to just deny that it ever happened. The other question would be what does GB have the authority to sign a LOI for. He would have the authority to sign something on behalf of the Coyotes. If ownership of the Thrashers were in town (another rumour that has been denied), I suppose he would be a witness to it. I don't really think he would have the authority to sign anything on their behalf if they weren't in town.

This rumour hasn't been mentioned as much as some others, however I think that many of the latest rumours have stemmed from this one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but why would Bettman have to physically travel to Winnipeg to sign or witness a LOI? Wouldn't it be easier to have this done at the league offices or somewhere in New York? If he is signing on behalf of the Coyotes him and Daly could sign it in New York and the Winnipeg party could either be there to sign it as well or have signed it before sending it to the league....or do all parties have to be present at the same time? If so, it would still make more sense for this to be done in New York. Wouldn't it?
If I were looking to purchase the Coyotes (or whomever) and move them to Winnipeg...I don't think I'd be calling up the league commissioner and saying, "Hey, ya wanna get on a plane and get up to Winnipeg so you can sign this letter we're submitting?"...I'd think I would travel to him instead.

 

[TrentSteele]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but why would Bettman have to physically travel to Winnipeg to sign or witness a LOI? Wouldn't it be easier to have this done at the league offices or somewhere in New York? If he is signing on behalf of the Coyotes him and Daly could sign it in New York and the Winnipeg party could either be there to sign it as well or have signed it before sending it to the league....or do all parties have to be present at the same time? If so, it would still make more sense for this to be done in New York. Wouldn't it?
If I were looking to purchase the Coyotes (or whomever) and move them to Winnipeg...I don't think I'd be calling up the league commissioner and saying, "Hey, ya wanna get on a plane and get up to Winnipeg so you can sign this letter we're submitting?"...I'd think I would travel to him instead.

You're probably right, but part of the rumour that I forgot to mention was that he was also touring the MTSC. He was rumoured to be in Winnipeg shortly after his stint in Alberta, so it's not unreasonable that he stopped on his way back. Like I said, this is just a rumour that has been denied by Bill Daly, so he may not have been here. Just putting it out there as one of the things that has led to the mass speculation surrounding Winnipeg.

 

[King_Stannis]

I take all these rumors with a grain of salt. But I will, as I've always done, direct you to the words of the commissioner himself to his deputy - "if the Coyotes have to move, they should be offered to Winnipeg first". Said without forethought to any publicity (so all you conspiracy whackos can put down your suspicions he said it for some ulterior reason). It was a private email he would never have thought would someday be made public.

I think Atlanta will stay, and trusting the commissioner's words, if the deal with Ice Edge falls through and nobody else steps up, the Coyotes will be moved to Winnipeg.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

- contractors were reported to be at MTS Centre looking into possible expansion

I've heard this thrown around too .. but it seems to run against the notion that the building was built with future expansion in mind, which is something that was often thrown around before any concrete rumours came about.

Bear in mind, I could just be playing semantics on this one. When I hear "looking into possible expansion", I think "Hey, let's see if this is possible". Whether or not it's known to be possible that the place can be expanded, you need to bring contractors in

 

[TrentSteele]

I've heard this thrown around too .. but it seems to run against the notion that the building was built with future expansion in mind, which is something that was often thrown around before any concrete rumours came about.

Bear in mind, I could just be playing semantics on this one. When I hear "looking into possible expansion", I think "Hey, let's see if this is possible". Whether or not it's known to be possible that the place can be expanded, you need to bring contractors in

You can't really argue semantics on a rumour. Most are just regurgitated info and paraphrased by the poster, so you probably aren't seeing the original wording anyways.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

You can't really argue semantics on a rumour.

We haven't met....

 

[edog37]

I underlined and bolded the key word in this statement. Edmonton may have more of an AHL building than Winnipeg...but that doesn't change the fact that the MTS Centre is an AHL building.

How is the MTS Centre an AHL building? It houses an AHL team, but how does that fact alone make it an AHL building? It contains a rink with the required size, has luxury boxes & can generate sufficient revenue. It is smaller in seat size, but 15K in Winnipeg still beats 10K in Miami. The NHL has had games there in the preseason & most have come away impressed.

 

[Brodie]

There is no such thing as an "AHL building"... roughly a quarter of the buildings in the AHL are good enough to house an NHL team and the other 3/4's seat 10,000 or under.

 

[Pegger5]

You know, this thread is supposed to be about True North, Mark Chipman along with David Thomson (ownership Group) looking at bringing a team to Winnipeg. Not debating MTSC and Winnipeg's size and capability of hosting an NHL team. A certain person here continues to debate MTSC and Winnipeg not being good enough. IF and when an ownership group brings a team to Winnipeg the ownership group will have done their due-diligence...
People continue to think people (Rich smart people) are idiots for doing this... Well, if you naysayers think Chipman and Thomson are idiots for looking to bring NHL to Winnipeg then just say so.. Because by debating everything else that is basically what you are doing... calling those two people dumb... They are the ones doing this whether you agree or not...

 

[Pegger5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but why would Bettman have to physically travel to Winnipeg to sign or witness a LOI? Wouldn't it be easier to have this done at the league offices or somewhere in New York? If he is signing on behalf of the Coyotes him and Daly could sign it in New York and the Winnipeg party could either be there to sign it as well or have signed it before sending it to the league....or do all parties have to be present at the same time? If so, it would still make more sense for this to be done in New York. Wouldn't it?
If I were looking to purchase the Coyotes (or whomever) and move them to Winnipeg...I don't think I'd be calling up the league commissioner and saying, "Hey, ya wanna get on a plane and get up to Winnipeg so you can sign this letter we're submitting?"...I'd think I would travel to him instead.

The acquiring company usually needs to have this done legally in the province of where it is happening... original sig and witnessed in the place of acquisition. Same may need to happen in place of Sale.. Not in New York