Proposal: Making a Hockey Trade

[smithformeragent]

11 games in, this club is up and down.

The sample size is limited, but they've clearly had some success against weaker teams while struggling against stronger clubs.

One interesting thing to consider is that with the modified schedule last season, this Bruins team did not play games against Tampa, Carolina, Toronto, and Florida.

So, whats the answer?
Do you stay the course?
Give it another 10-15 games?

I don't see them "blowing it up" and dealing away pieces for picks, and part of that is their pieces of value are ones you want to build around.

So what else can you do?
What does a hockey trade look like?

Are you willing to trade big pieces for big pieces?
* Are there other clubs mired in mediocrity or in a rebuild that might be willing to deal?
* Are you interested in a franchise altering deal meaning dealing one of your pillars?

Click to read more...

 

[The National]

I’d rather they hold onto their picks, this team isn’t a contender and the prospect pool is a major reason why.

A hockey trade is a little more difficult right now when teams are still figuring out where they’re at, Bruins also don’t have much to move outside of about 5-6 players.

 

[Sevendust]

Fire Sweeney and Neely first of all.

 

[BruinDust]

I'm not sure what exactly they have to trade that is of much interest to other teams outside of the core group.

Realistically none of Bergeron, Hall, Marchand, Pasta, McAvoy, Carlo, Swayman or Ullmark are going anywhere. Some may say why lump Carlo in here but the guy just signed a long-term six-year deal less than four months ago.

So what's left to move ? Charlie Coyle's contract is prohibitive and his play compared to last year is a bright spot so far.

The rest of the group are 3rd/4th liners or 4/5/6 level D-men, many on deals with term. Or fringe prospects/players with questionable upsides and trade values. They need more talent at the top end of the line-up, instead they allocated their cap space throughout their line-up to what appears to be a fairly mediocre group.

 

[rocketdan9]

11 games in, this club is up and down.

The sample size is limited, but they've clearly had some success against weaker teams while struggling against stronger clubs.

One interesting thing to consider is that with the modified schedule last season, this Bruins team did not play games against Tampa, Carolina, Toronto, and Florida.

So, whats the answer?
Do you stay the course?
Give it another 10-15 games?

I don't see them "blowing it up" and dealing away pieces for picks, and part of that is their pieces of value are ones you want to build around.

So what else can you do?
What does a hockey trade look like?

Are you willing to trade big pieces for big pieces?
* Are there other clubs mired in mediocrity or in a rebuild that might be willing to deal?
* Are you interested in a franchise altering deal meaning dealing one of your pillars?
View attachment 479428

How about

To Coyotes: Stud, Beecher, Frederic, Grz, Reilly and two 1sts

To Bruins: Keller, Chychrun

 

[UConn126]

Idk who we trade.

IMO, the future leadership group is established in Carlo, McAvoy, Pasta, and likely Swayman, so not trading any of them.

Obviously not going to trade Marchand or Bergeron.

Probably not going to trade the guys who just got here on new deals, so that rules out Hall, Ullmark, Reilly, Forbort, Foligno, Haula, and Nosek.

So who's left?

Gryz? I think he has more value to us than he would bring back in a deal.
Clifton? Kind of a dime a dozen 6/7 guy, not going to bring back anything special.
Coyle? No movement clause.
Smith? Under performing, so we'd be selling low. Could swap one for one for another struggling forward but does that really help?
Studnicka? I'm not sold on his offensive upside, so I'd gladly include in a trade for an established player.

I just don't think there's a hockey trade to be had with this team.

 

[RoccoF14]

I'll try to keep my answers short:

1. Every year, and especially this year, I think its rash to make any roster decisions until you've gone at least 20 games into a season. Especially when you've had the amount of roster turnover that we've had. I still believe that. I'm all for making trades, its just premature at this point in the season.

2. I don't think you need to "blow up the roster" and dump players for picks. Regardless of your feelings about Sweeney, I just don't think that course of action works. Show me a team that's done it successfully and I'll listen. In the meantime, I have no appetite for watching an AHL roster play for 3-7 years, with no guarantee that we'll be any better off than if we re-tooled on the fly. Regardless of who the GM is.

3. Our trade capital is not strong right now. Due to our success, we've haven't had a lot of high picks, and the picks we have had have been underwhelming to date. When we've traded picks for established talent (which many agreed with at the time, by the way) many haven't worked out the way we'd hoped.

Unfortunately, I fear this thread is going to degenerate into yet another "Fire Sweeney" thread...I hope not, but I have my doubts.

 

[smithformeragent]

I'll try to keep my answers short:

Unfortunately, I fear this thread is going to degenerate into yet another "Fire Sweeney" thread...I hope not, but I have my doubts.

That's why we moderators are paid the big bucks.

The purpose of this thread is not to skewer management.

They are what they are at this point and there's no going back to previous drafts/off-seasons/TDLs.

Purpose here: What do you want them to do at this point?

 

[Ratty]

We have oodles of first rounders to trade; DeBrusk, Zboril, Frederick, Vaakanainen, Senyshyn. Contenders should be drooling over these prospects.

 

[Eddie Munson]

Idk who we trade.

IMO, the future leadership group is established in Carlo, McAvoy, Pasta, and likely Swayman, so not trading any of them.

Obviously not going to trade Marchand or Bergeron.

Probably not going to trade the guys who just got here on new deals, so that rules out Hall, Ullmark, Reilly, Forbort, Foligno, Haula, and Nosek.

So who's left?

Gryz? I think he has more value to us than he would bring back in a deal.
Clifton? Kind of a dime a dozen 6/7 guy, not going to bring back anything special.
Coyle? No movement clause.
Smith? Under performing, so we'd be selling low. Could swap one for one for another struggling forward but does that really help?
Studnicka? I'm not sold on his offensive upside, so I'd gladly include in a trade for an established player.

I just don't think there's a hockey trade to be had with this team.

Unfortunately this is where I'm at as well. What hockey trade is their to be had?

If this team were one piece away at giving Bergeron one or two more shots at a cup, I'd say sell the farm. That said, we're not one piece away, the farm isn't overly attractive to others, and we have some hard decisions coming up as Bergeron ages.

As sad as this is to say, I think the team needs to play this out and make some decisions closer to the deadline on whether they're buyers or sellers.

 

[smithformeragent]

Unfortunately this is where I'm at as well. What hockey trade is their to be had?

If this team were one piece away at giving Bergeron one or two more shots at a cup, I'd say sell the farm. That said, we're not one piece away, the farm isn't overly attractive to others, and we have some hard decisions coming up as Bergeron ages.

As sad as this is to say, I think the team needs to play this out and make some decisions closer to the deadline on whether they're buyers or sellers.

Dealing a piece(s) you don't want to deal to be competitive 2-3 years from now.

 

[Dr Hook]

Dealing a piece(s) you don't want to deal to be competitive 2-3 years from now.

They could do that, and could actually begin the rebuild. The problem is at least twofold, though: 1) Sweeney and Neely likely believe this team is still a playoff team and a contender 2)Ownership does not seem willing (or they never have been in the past) to sacrifice 2-3 seasons of playoff revenue to do a rebuild.

If they even move one player that they consider pivotal to the team's success- let's say Matty G- and get a prospect and a pick for him, they have no one to play his position and the team gets worse. This is true for anyone they could move: Coyle, Hall, Carlo, etc. It's also a pretty short list. This is where they are. To move one of the few players they have with any value that a team would be interested in and would bring a decent return, they are killing themselves in the present and I don't think that would fly with management or ownership.

 

[PlayMakers]

I think they need to continue to iron out their own game.

Everyone is assuming when they lose it's because of whatever bias they had before the season started (#2C or LD) but the #2c has done more offensive play driving 5on5 than any player on the team. And the defense's weak link in the first 11 games isn't any of the left siders, it's Carlo.

When you look at their With/Without Chart below, you see Hall and Coyle as the players furthest to the right which means they are creating a lot of quality scoring chances. They are also towards the bottom right which means they also give up some scoring chances (but I think that's a function of playing with Smith who's been a train wreck defensively this season). You'll also see Carlo as the player furthest to the left and below the red line which means he gives up more than he creates. Every other defenseman on the team is on the other side of that red line. Haula stands out as well. He is below that red line and still pulling big minutes. He has the 2nd worst plus/minus on the team, 1 point in 11 games and seems to be struggling mightily in his matchups and with the way Cassidy has deployed him.

If I'm Cassidy, the first thing I do is tinker with the 3rd line. They have to plug that hole if they expect the boat to float. The second thing I do is scale back Carlo's minutes and scale up Clifton. Carlo is clearly the better player, but he's not playing like it, and Clifton has played very well. Third I'd spend practice time working on defensive zone coverage. These miscues and missed reads that are happening (by forwards and defensemen) go all the way back to the Islander series. I mean, the goals they're giving up are nearly identical. Goals where a F has someone covered in front so the D leaves to confront the puck carrier, at the same time as the forward in front releases his man to go do the same thing leaving the guy in front uncovered. It's basic, it happens every game to every line and it's why it seems so easy for other teams to score.

They will still probably end up needing a RW for the 2nd line, but that's where I would start. There are a lot of new faces and there were bound to be growing pains. New guys learning the system, learning communication on the ice, learning each other's tendencies. It's a work in progress and will probably be that way until December.

 

[bb74]

The GM didn't know until the last minute if Krejci was staying or not - despite being in the org for so long and the B's being his only franchise. The GM doesn't know if Bergeron is going to retire after this year - despite being in the org for 18 years straight and the C. The GM hasn't had the balls to say they are moving on from Rask despite signing a new n°1 for 4 years at 5M and choosing Swayman as the backup. The GM went on the record saying it would be "Center by Committee" and that he would let the young D play with Chara leaving. They young D are still nowhere to be found 18 months later.... the committee approach is giving typical committee returns - low risk, zero reward.

He has done some good things and yes the team has generally performed in W/L on the Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Pasta, Chara, McAvoy, Rask core. Only 2 of which aren't from before 2010.

To make a hockey trade you need to know what you are building to. Does Sweeney even know? If Bergeron stays, it's a totally different build than if he walks. If he walks you need to deal him at the deadline with Marchand and go full rebuild as they are nowhere near competing without him on the roster. If he stays, you need to add and go for one last kick at the can the next 24 months.

Assuming Bergeron is staying for another 2 years. Only key asset they have to trade for an elite positional player swap is Pasta. W for C.

Something like Horvat + 1st for Pasta and a salary dump like Moore.
Then move out DeBrusk and Reilly as a package for a #3 LD like Theodore in LV.
Then Studnika, 1st for Hertl.

Marchand-Bergeron-Foligno
Hall-Horvat-Smith
Haula-Coyle-Hertl
Nosek-Frederic-Lazar

Theo-McAvoy
Grzy-Carlo
Forbort-Clifton

If Bergeron is walking, I hate to say it but he needs to be traded at the deadline for a 1st ++ and then you need to move Marchand for a top flight C. Keep Pasta in that case but still unload Debrusk and Reilly.

Hall-Coyle-Pasta
bottom 9 by committee...

 

[arider1990]

I don't think they do anything just yet other than tinker with minutes. Now come the trade deadline I think the two areas where they will look to improve is third pair RD and 2nd line RW. Now both Clifton and Smith can get going by then and change what they should do but right now those are the areas I look into. For D I look into either Manson from Anaheim or Larsson from Seattle. As for the RW I like Rakell from Anaheim or Forsberg from Nashville. If they can get both I think this will be a team to beat in the playoffs.

 

[arider1990]

The GM didn't know until the last minute if Krejci was staying or not - despite being in the org for so long and the B's being his only franchise. The GM doesn't know if Bergeron is going to retire after this year - despite being in the org for 18 years straight and the C. The GM hasn't had the balls to say they are moving on from Rask despite signing a new n°1 for 4 years at 5M and choosing Swayman as the backup. The GM went on the record saying it would be "Center by Committee" and that he would let the young D play with Chara leaving. They young D are still nowhere to be found 18 months later.... the committee approach is giving typical committee returns - low risk, zero reward.

He has done some good things and yes the team has generally performed in W/L on the Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Pasta, Chara, McAvoy, Rask core. Only 2 of which aren't from before 2010.

To make a hockey trade you need to know what you are building to. Does Sweeney even know? If Bergeron stays, it's a totally different build than if he walks. If he walks you need to deal him at the deadline with Marchand and go full rebuild as they are nowhere near competing without him on the roster. If he stays, you need to add and go for one last kick at the can the next 24 months.

Assuming Bergeron is staying for another 2 years. Only key asset they have to trade for an elite positional player swap is Pasta. W for C.

Something like Horvat + 1st for Pasta and a salary dump like Moore.
Then move out DeBrusk and Reilly as a package for a #3 LD like Theodore in LV.
Then Studnika, 1st for Hertl.

Marchand-Bergeron-Foligno
Hall-Horvat-Smith
Haula-Coyle-Hertl
Nosek-Frederic-Lazar

Theo-McAvoy
Grzy-Carlo
Forbort-Clifton

If Bergeron is walking, I hate to say it but he needs to be traded at the deadline for a 1st ++ and then you need to move Marchand for a top flight C. Keep Pasta in that case but still unload Debrusk and Reilly.

Hall-Coyle-Pasta
bottom 9 by committee...

When did Horvat become an elite player?

 

[Blowfish]

We have oodles of first rounders to trade; DeBrusk, Zboril, Frederick, Vaakanainen, Senyshyn. Contenders should be drooling over these prospects.

Now you just pissed me off...thinking what could have been 3 picks in a row...Grrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[smithformeragent]

@bb74,

I like what you're saying.

It's one thing to keep the core together and build, giving them an opportunity to win.
But at some point, it's business and you've got to plan for the future.

We all have our binkies, but the GM is paid to do what's best for the organization and sometimes that means operating in a cutthroat way.

 

[bb74]

When did Horvat become an elite player?

He's not that's why I said "like" and there is a 1st coming with someone like him. He is a N°2 though so fills a real need (while creating another we cover with by committee...)

 

[Sevendust]

What scares me is that Charlie Jacobs said in the past that he really wants to win another cup for his parents as soon as possible because of their age and everything. Therefore I think that Sweeney will milk everything out of this roster until the very last. We probably will go the Detroit way. Make the playoffs every year and loose in the first round until it crushes down finally.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

does anyone really believe Sweeney will make a "hockey trade" at any time of year other than the trade deadline? it's just not his MO

 

[Jim]

Now isn’t the time to think trade. I was calling for a trade last year at the deadline, knowing Krejci & Rask’s contracts were expiring. Lost them for nothing.

Trading any draft picks henceforth is not an option until we have a #1 center in the system. So what do we do?….we wallow in mediocrity with horrible patchwork free agent signings or grow a pair and rebuild while letting the kids play. Window is closed!

 

[McGarnagle]

We don't have any expiring pieces to sell, and mortgaging the future to buy is a fool's errand.

I'm thinking back to 2007 when Chiarelli was in a similar situation with a poor team that had a few great pieces but no assets to realistically buy or anything to sell, but he made a few lateral trades that paid off in a couple years' time just to get better fits on the ice and in the locker room - He traded Mara for Ward, lateral D for D trade, but undoubtedly Aaron Ward fit in well and made a place for himself with Chara for a few years and took on leadership. Then he traded Boyes for Wideman, an inconsistent but talented center for an inconsistent but talented defenseman, both in need of a change of scenery, and it seemed to be good for both guys. Wideman wasn't great or anything but gave us a new dimension on the back end we were missing and was a key component of the 2008-2010 playoff teams.

So I guess in sum I'd say think laterally. Don't trade for 2022 but get pieces that fit together better for 2023 and 2024. Maybe it's trading Debrusk for the defensive equivalent of Debrusk, maybe it's swapping out a winger for a center or a LHD for an RHD, or making a prospect deal where you give up Zboril for someone else's forward prospect who is in the same boat and hasn't arrived yet and needs a change of scenery, etc.

 

[BruinDust]

Feels like the 1995-96 team when they brought in a pile of mediocrity in the off-season (Stevens, McEachern, Elik, etc.) expecting the additions to help take the team upwards and it didn't work. Squeak into the playoffs and get their butts handed to them in 4-5 games.

 

[smithformeragent]

Feels like the 1995-96 team when they brought in a pile of mediocrity in the off-season (Stevens, McEachern, Elik, etc.) expecting the additions to help take the team upwards and it didn't work. Squeak into the playoffs and get their butts handed to them in 4-5 games.

Scary (and I fear accurate) comparison as that was a team that went from a
SC Finalist, to
back to back conference finalist, to
make the playoffs and win a round to
playoffs one and done
and finally a DNQ

Injuries to Neely to trading Oates and eventually Bourque.
One has to wonder if Bergeron's Bruins' career may be headed for a similar ending.