Making a Case for Kadri as FLC

[diceman934]

Actually I see no resemblance in skating for Kadri and Gretzky. Gretzky was again one of the best all around skaters in the NHL, Kadri is ok at best. We have been through this discussion already, I asked you if you think Kadri is as fast as 99, does he have 99's balance, does he have 99's one step quickness. All No's.

You think they are alike, I think you are wrong, it is simply a poor opinion to compare the 2.

As for Kadri being close to Kessel as passers. Not even close. Another poor comparable. If he were as good a skater as 99 and if he was as good a playmaker as Kessel. I know one thing, we would not be asking the question in the OP Kadri FLC.

I never once said Gretzky and Kadri were comparable in skating only that they used a similar Radius on their skates for the same reason. If that is comparing them in skating then I'm guilty..... According to you Gretzky could beat 99.99% of the players in the NHL to a puck and That Gretzky was fast.....you were wrong.....yet have never admitted it.

Just because you lack base knowledge of skates and skating does not mean that when I say that Kadri uses a similar radius on his skates is comparing them as skaters....so either start studying about skates and radius and hollows or stop stating that I compared Gretzky to Kadri.

Remember I chose Rielly as the best pure passer of the puck and Kessel as the best playmaker.....

 

[Peasy]

Kadri is the best passer and playmaker on the team.

His possession numbers are strong because he passes so well. It's why he's still capable of putting up 50 points with Clarkson playing on his wing.

Possession numbers, as they are currently calculated (Corsi, Fenwick), do not credit you for holding the puck. They credit you for taking shots compared with how many shots you give up.

The team has significantly better possession when he is on the ice. He's a better game manager than you give him credit for. The possession numbers prove that.

Holy ****, Theres like 4 or so wingers that played with Kadri more than Clarkson, including Kessel, so stop making this point... Also Kadri is no where near Bozak defensively lmfao. If he was, how come he never plays the PK or is out there in the last minute to take a defensive zone draw?

 

[agropop]

Yeah, whats the problem?

We suck?

 

[Heis3nberg]

Kadri is "The Best" center leafs have and arguably the 2nd BEST forward after Kessel on the team.

If Carlyle doesn't ruin it by limiting his ice time and doesn't hang anchors on his line (read: Clarkson, AHL scrubs) Kadri line will be dynamite. Assuming Lupul rebounds and leafs can have a decent right winger on Kadri line, that line will be dynamite!

um

no

sorry

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Holy ****, Theres like 4 or so wingers that played with Kadri more than Clarkson, including Kessel, so stop making this point... Also Kadri is no where near Bozak defensively lmfao. If he was, how come he never plays the PK or is out there in the last minute to take a defensive zone draw?

Kadri's point totals without Clarkson on his line are much better. Clarkson torched the 2nd line's production. Only Raymond spent more time with Clarkson than Kadri did.

I don't think anyone is saying Kadri is better than Bozak defensively. I certainly haven't. Nonetheless, there is very little evidence that suggests that Bozak is good, or even average defensively. The gap here is small.

As for usage, on the PK and on the last minute face-offs, Bozak is currently the better face-off man, and he is better defensively, albeit slightly. I didn't argue against that either, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

 

[Purity*]

Holy ****, Theres like 4 or so wingers that played with Kadri more than Clarkson, including Kessel, so stop making this point... Also Kadri is no where near Bozak defensively lmfao. If he was, how come he never plays the PK or is out there in the last minute to take a defensive zone draw?

Remind me again, who led the team in GA/60? And who had some of the worst possession numbers in our top 9?

Why would we need Kadri to play the PK? Kulemin/JVR/Bozak/McClement/Raymond/Bolland were all lined up to play it. Much better off saving Kadri's minutes for the PP. We might as well throw Kessel out on the PK too, right?

 

[Peasy]

Remind me again, who led the team in GA/60? And who had some of the worst possession numbers in our top 9?

Why would we need Kadri to play the PK? Kulemin/JVR/Bozak/McClement/Raymond/Bolland were all lined up to play it. Much better off saving Kadri's minutes for the PP. We might as well throw Kessel out on the PK too, right?

Bozak is better than Kadri defensively, go make a poll on the main boards or even here and you'll see what the majority thinks... All you do is try to find advanced stats that don't back the cause, but will ignore all the ones that do. Also Bolland played like 15 games... Bozak played quite a bit on the PK AND and on PP so what is this saving minutes for theory? And why would Kessel go on the PK, hes terribly defensively and wouldnt block a shot to save a goal...

Its ****in sad now a days that people just resort to advanced stats rather than watching the game itself.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Bozak is better than Kadri defensively, go make a poll on the main boards or even here and you'll see what the majority thinks... All you do is try to find advanced stats that don't back the cause, but will ignore all the ones that do. Also Bolland played like 15 games... Bozak played quite a bit on the PK AND and on PP so what is this saving minutes for theory? And why would Kessel go on the PK, hes terribly defensively and wouldnt block a shot to save a goal...

Its ****in sad now a days that people just resort to advanced stats rather than watching the game itself.

So much is wrong with this post.

Making a poll on a message board doesn't result in convincing evidence.

Advanced stats suggest that neither Bozak nor Kadri are "good" defensively, which is probably true.

Gotta love the "watch the games" argument. Especially on an internet message board. Is there anyone that posts here that doesn't watch the games? We're die-hard fans. That's why we come to this site.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I prefer kadri on the 2nd line because it gives us a dynamic offensive duo on each of our top two lines. Kessel/JVR on the first and Lupul/Kadri on the 2nd.

 

[Purity*]

Bozak is better than Kadri defensively, go make a poll on the main boards or even here and you'll see what the majority thinks... All you do is try to find advanced stats that don't back the cause, but will ignore all the ones that do. Also Bolland played like 15 games... Bozak played quite a bit on the PK AND and on PP so what is this saving minutes for theory? And why would Kessel go on the PK, hes terribly defensively and wouldnt block a shot to save a goal...

Its ****in sad now a days that people just resort to advanced stats rather than watching the game itself.

Calm down, when did I say Kadri was better defensively? I don't agree with your assessment that "Kadri isn't even close to Bozak defensively."

I like both advanced stats and real stats, because they both support my opinion. LA Kings/Blackawks have been 2 of the best advanced stats teams in the leaguef or awhile now, and for a damn good reason.

Don't worry, "watching the game" is my favorite judgement call. Bozak is soft on the puck, with sub-par offensive skills who plays with world-class talent, he finally put up decent offensive numbers last year and shot at a ridiculously high %. He's decent defensively, yes, but not nearly as good as some try and make him out to be (Once again, who led the team in GA/60?). Kadri put up 44 points in 48 games playing alongside names like Clarke Mac, Frattin and Komorav. Luckily defense/intangibles are much easier to teach than the natural offensive skill Kadri has, names like Yzerman and Doughty can attest to that.

 

[diceman934]

Calm down, when did I say Kadri was better defensively? I don't agree with your assessment that "Kadri isn't even close to Bozak defensively."

I like both advanced stats and real stats, because they both support my opinion. LA Kings/Blackawks have been 2 of the best advanced stats teams in the leaguef or awhile now, and for a damn good reason.

Don't worry, "watching the game" is my favorite judgement call. Bozak is soft on the puck, with sub-par offensive skills who plays with world-class talent, he finally put up decent offensive numbers last year and shot at a ridiculously high %. He's decent defensively, yes, but not nearly as good as some try and make him out to be (Once again, who led the team in GA/60?). Kadri put up 44 points in 48 games playing alongside names like Clarke Mac, Frattin and Komorav. Luckily defense/intangibles are much easier to teach than the natural offensive skill Kadri has, names like Yzerman and Doughty can attest to that.

If Bozak was so good defensively there would be no advance stats available to prove that he is not!

Carlyle used him to take faceoffs on the PK generally, Raymond played more time on the PK as did 5 others. His line mate JVR played more on the PK then Bozak....he is not nearly as good as some make him out to be defensively. He is a soft forward with average offensive ability and average defensive ability who thinks the game well.

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

I prefer kadri on the 2nd line because it gives us a dynamic offensive duo on each of our top two lines. Kessel/JVR on the first and Lupul/Kadri on the 2nd.

Pretty much this. Its better to have two scoring lines than 1 optimumum line and the other mediocre

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I never once said Gretzky and Kadri were comparable in skating only that they used a similar Radius on their skates for the same reason. If that is comparing them in skating then I'm guilty..... According to you Gretzky could beat 99.99% of the players in the NHL to a puck and That Gretzky was fast.....you were wrong.....yet have never admitted it.

Just because you lack base knowledge of skates and skating does not mean that when I say that Kadri uses a similar radius on his skates is comparing them as skaters....so either start studying about skates and radius and hollows or stop stating that I compared Gretzky to Kadri.

Remember I chose Rielly as the best pure passer of the puck and Kessel as the best playmaker.....

It doesn't matter how you want to phrase it, Kadri may tape his sticks like 99 too, just like the claim he skates with a similar radius like Gretzky. LOL I have to laugh everytime I read this. It does not matter. He is not as good as a skater as 99 is or was, nor could he shoot like him either. That's the bottom line. Styles mean nothing if you are not as effective as a skater.

As for Gretzky being 99% better than players from getting from point A to Point B from a stop and start position, he was. Hockey is a stop and start skating game. Anyone who truly watched him in his prime would know he was one of the best if not the best at this in his prime. Stop/start, balance and changing directions combined with speed. This is the reason why he was such a marvellous skater. When people claim he was not fast, they don't know what they are talking about. Maybe if hockey was the sport speed skating he wouldn't be, but this is hockey, and in the game of hockey, he was fast enough to score the most breakaway goals in history.

 

[Super Mega]

reunite the old 1st line

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Kadri - Holland

each has a defensive forward (JVR/Bozak)
each has a playmaker (Kessel/Kadri)
each has a sniper Lupul... Holland not so much but I would insert any forward that can score.

I was hoping they would run this with Raymond in the 2nd RW slot last year, better composition

 

[diceman934]

It doesn't matter how you want to phrase it, Kadri may tape his sticks like 99 too, just like the claim he skates with a similar radius like Gretzky. LOL I have to laugh everytime I read this. It does not matter. He is not as good as a skater as 99 is or was, nor could he shoot like him either. That's the bottom line. Styles mean nothing if you are not as effective as a skater.

As for Gretzky being 99% better than players from getting from point A to Point B from a stop and start position, he was. Hockey is a stop and start skating game. Anyone who truly watched him in his prime would know he was one of the best if not the best at this in his prime. Stop/start, balance and changing directions combined with speed. This is the reason why he was such a marvellous skater. When people claim he was not fast, they don't know what they are talking about. Maybe if hockey was the sport speed skating he wouldn't be, but this is hockey, and in the game of hockey, he was fast enough to score the most breakaway goals in history.

Radius is the way the blade is sharpened, you should at least understand that if you are going to use the term Radius in a sentence!

Gretzky was not a fast skater.....never.....so stop saying he was. I will post two more video and one that shows Gordie Howe stating he is not a fast skater. What made Gretzky a great skater is his edge control, agility and balance...not speed! How he got so many breakaways was anticipation. He was the best skater on the ice as he used agility and edge control as well as quick turns and superior balance to skate away from players.

I first watched him play in Brantford as 12 year old and watched him in the OHL when he first played for Peterborough ....(my neck of the woods) then the Soo... Then his whole career in the NHL. I even watched him play a WHA game. So I have watched him play plenty.

Here are two videos: First one

Listen at 9:20 , then at 17:40 sports experts say he is not fast. Yet we should believe you!



Then the second one...listen to the first 30 seconds Gordie Howe states that he was not fast...



Some people when they find them self in a hole .....climb out then there are others who keep digging....you should climb out...

I'm done debating this with you as it is pointless.....I prove you wrong and you ignore the proof, you say I say things that I never said and you have proven to have a very limited knowledge of skating and skates and how they work and can be changed to achieve a desired outcome. So much more then a blade with two edges....

 

[LeafSteel]

Fire Kyle is just around the corner


>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm a Kadri fan, I make no bones about it, but the idea of him taking over Bozaks position as the 1C is ludicrous based on his performance last year.

Kadri is a kid with above average wheels, otherworldly puck skills, sweet hands or nifty mittens if you will, a great release and a mean streak! These are all things that an NHL 1C has to have, but what Kadri hasn't shown yet is the ability to use his team-mates at the level that an NHL 1C has to be able to. The innate ability to dish when it's most advantageous, the ability to use the points to free up coverage on a winger.....all things that Bozak already does.

Kadri has not as yet learned those intricacies of the game or at least showed a willingness to use his team-mates to the best advantage when in the attacking zone. The defensive part of his game showed some improvements but again imco he's not yet at the level that a 1C has to be at!

If Kadri starts doing those things with consistency then he deserves a shot

Put it this way an NHL 1C has to be more Harry Houdini then a Gob Bluth

Great post.

You pretty much said it all.

BB

 

[The Kessel Run]

I find it interesting that every Leaf thread I read now seems to meander back to this argument. When did this become "The Cause" that HFers are so passionately behind? Seems kind of random to appear in July/August.

Similarly, how come suddenly all of Bozak's points last year were all the result line mates and no offensive acumen of his own? That seems to be gaining steam in other threads and seems pretty ignorant to me. Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to seeing how both guys perform this preseason.

 

[Warden of the North]

The stats may suggest otherwise, but I can't get over the eye-test when it comes to Kadri with Kessel. It appears to not work. It looks awkward, like something isnt working between the two.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Bozak is better than Kadri defensively, go make a poll on the main boards or even here and you'll see what the majority thinks... All you do is try to find advanced stats that don't back the cause, but will ignore all the ones that do. Also Bolland played like 15 games... Bozak played quite a bit on the PK AND and on PP so what is this saving minutes for theory? And why would Kessel go on the PK, hes terribly defensively and wouldnt block a shot to save a goal...

Its ****in sad now a days that people just resort to advanced stats rather than watching the game itself.

So much is wrong with this post.

Making a poll on a message board doesn't result in convincing evidence.

Advanced stats suggest that neither Bozak nor Kadri are "good" defensively, which is probably true.

Gotta love the "watch the games" argument. Especially on an internet message board. Is there anyone that posts here that doesn't watch the games? We're die-hard fans. That's why we come to this site.

My guess is that based on observation of the comments in here, there's a number of posters that watch the Leafs games, but not that many games involving two other teams not named the Toronto Maple Leafs. There's so many trade proposals in here that are so ridiculously lopsided which seem to suggest this. I can't see these trades being suggested if the poster were actually watching other teams and their players, IMHO of course.

 

[Prominence]

Bozak was injured Dec 3 and returned Dec. 29 agaisnt hurricanes.

Here are Kadri stats for that stretch:


Thu. Dec. 5, 2013 Stars 2 at Maple Leafs 3 (OT) : GF 1 GA 0
Sat. Dec. 7, 2013 Maple Leafs 4 at Senators 3 (SO): GF 2 GA 0
Sun. Dec. 8, 2013 Bruins 5 at Maple Leafs 2 : GF 0 GA 1
Wed. Dec. 11, 2013 Kings 3 at Maple Leafs 1 : GF 0 GA 1
Thu. Dec. 12, 2013 Maple Leafs 3 at Blues 6 :GF 1 GA 2
Sat. Dec. 14, 2013 Blackhawks 3 at Maple Leafs 7: GF 1 GA 1
Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 Maple Leafs 1 at Penguins 3: GF 0 GA 0
Tue. Dec. 17, 2013 Panthers 3 at Maple Leafs 1: GF 0 GA 2
Thu. Dec. 19, 2013 Coyotes 1 at Maple Leafs 2 (SO) : GF0 GA 0
Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 Red Wings 5 at Maple Leafs 4 (SO): GF 0 GA 1
Mon. Dec. 23, 2013 Maple Leafs 1 at Rangers 2 (SO): GF 1 GA 0
Fri. Dec. 27, 2013 Sabres 3 at Maple Leafs 4 (SO) : GF 1 GA 0

Total: 12 games, GF 7 and GA 8

Highlighting the teams that are top notch teams in NHL

Basically, Naz didn't fare as bad as some LIARS make him out to be

Thanks for the compilation.

It does not seem like he's that bad defensively on the top line. However, he would need to establish better chemistry with Kessel.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Kessel a beast defensively?

Not even close!!!!

Come on man, you can't possibly believe that can you?

Kessel's best defensively description would be barely adequate.

I like Kessel, and think he showed more character than the team's captain last year and Kessel took ownership of the failures but a "beast defensively"?

Kadri's weakness is his game management, and he is no where near Bozak in supporting his linemates. He's a showy, flashy, nifty mittens developing player who only has to gain experience to get better. He's been rather slow developing, going into his 5th. pro-season we're still asking for patience.

Give him another couple seasons and he just might find those missing pieces to his game.

Possesion player? You mean like he holds the puck, dekes, skates it up the ice? Like Gardiner skates the puck up the ice resulting in possession, whereas another player would pass and head man the puck? Did you ever watch the Wings in their recent dominant years, where they'd continuously pass the puck up down, across? Team possession is a better indicator than individual possession.

Kessel isn't a beast defensively, but he's always a threat regardless of situation. On the other hand, Bozak was a huge giveaway leader despite supposedly playing a more conservative game. If he was a huge producer, those numbers may be justified, but I really don't see how he fits on the top line.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

This is a example of someone taking advanced analytics way too far.

Kessel has shown he can be a "beast" defensively?

That honestly might be the funniest thing I've ever heard on this message board.

Yes, he can be a beast defensively. In other words, Kessel when into it, can backcheck really well. He was often the first back in his zone. More so, he was used against much tougher competition and his GA On/ 60 was much better than Bozak.

Yes, he can be pretty good defensively. I still remember when he striped the puck off of Jagr during the first round. He just needs to develop that aspect.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Radius is the way the blade is sharpened, you should at least understand that if you are going to use the term Radius in a sentence!

Gretzky was not a fast skater.....never.....so stop saying he was. I will post two more video and one that shows Gordie Howe stating he is not a fast skater. What made Gretzky a great skater is his edge control, agility and balance...not speed! How he got so many breakaways was anticipation. He was the best skater on the ice as he used agility and edge control as well as quick turns and superior balance to skate away from players.

I first watched him play in Brantford as 12 year old and watched him in the OHL when he first played for Peterborough ....(my neck of the woods) then the Soo... Then his whole career in the NHL. I even watched him play a WHA game. So I have watched him play plenty.

Here are two videos: First one

Listen at 9:20 , then at 17:40 sports experts say he is not fast. Yet we should believe you!

Then the second one...listen to the first 30 seconds Gordie Howe states that he was not fast...

I'm done debating this with you as it is pointless.....I prove you wrong and you ignore the proof, you say I say things that I never said and you have proven to have a very limited knowledge of skating and skates and how they work and can be changed to achieve a desired outcome. So much more then a blade with two edges....

Since when did sharpening skates have to do with Kadri being compared to one of the best all around skaters in history. You compared the 2, not me. You have proved nothing. They are not similar as skaters.

Again, is Kadri as fast, does he have the acceleration, balance, ellusiveness, and speed of Gretzky? Answer is no. So saying mentioning them together is simply a BAD opinion. I would even term it a silly incorrect opinion.

I like how you came around and said Gretzky is a great skater when I challenged you, then in the same sentence implied he wasn't, when you throw in he was not/never fast. Was he slow then? Michael Jackson couldn't dance better around addressing topics. You can keep on waxing poetic about skate sharpening and edges, what does this prove? They can both sharpen skates? Silly statement again.

Gretzky was a marvelous skater who was fast, fast enough to score the most breakaway goals in NHL history, fast enough to lead the fastest team in history. Kadri has no resemblace to him. It is a bad comparison, a terrible opinion. It is wrong.

Here is a 35 year old Gretzky skating fast and away from Devils that include Neidermayer and Guerin to score a shorthanded goal. If you can, Please explain how a Gretzky is not a fast skater as you continue to claim in this video. He was not even in his prime here yet he was faster than 2 fast skaters. This video speaks louder than any quote you post.

Never fast? This couldn't be more wrong. I'll await an answer, if none is forthcoming, I will surmise the discussion is closed since no one with a straight face can claim in your words "Gretzky was never fast" watching the Video below.

 

[RedRenegade]

Bozak was injured Dec 3 and returned Dec. 29 agaisnt hurricanes.

Here are Kadri stats for that stretch:


Thu. Dec. 5, 2013 Stars 2 at Maple Leafs 3 (OT) : GF 1 GA 0
Sat. Dec. 7, 2013 Maple Leafs 4 at Senators 3 (SO): GF 2 GA 0
Sun. Dec. 8, 2013 Bruins 5 at Maple Leafs 2 : GF 0 GA 1
Wed. Dec. 11, 2013 Kings 3 at Maple Leafs 1 : GF 0 GA 1
Thu. Dec. 12, 2013 Maple Leafs 3 at Blues 6 :GF 1 GA 2
Sat. Dec. 14, 2013 Blackhawks 3 at Maple Leafs 7: GF 1 GA 1
Mon. Dec. 16, 2013 Maple Leafs 1 at Penguins 3: GF 0 GA 0
Tue. Dec. 17, 2013 Panthers 3 at Maple Leafs 1: GF 0 GA 2
Thu. Dec. 19, 2013 Coyotes 1 at Maple Leafs 2 (SO) : GF0 GA 0
Sat. Dec. 21, 2013 Red Wings 5 at Maple Leafs 4 (SO): GF 0 GA 1
Mon. Dec. 23, 2013 Maple Leafs 1 at Rangers 2 (SO): GF 1 GA 0
Fri. Dec. 27, 2013 Sabres 3 at Maple Leafs 4 (SO) : GF 1 GA 0

Total: 12 games, GF 7 and GA 8

Highlighting the teams that are top notch teams in NHL

Basically, Naz didn't fare as bad as some LIARS make him out to be

At first I was confused by your stats but now I think I see what you did. You used goals for. So you're saying he was on the ice for more goals against than goals for?! That seems to provide stats that go against your argument.

He scored 2 goals against Dallas, 0 against the Sens, 0 against the Hawks, and 0 against the Sabres. Total goals 4 in 12 games. Also had a total of 2 assists in that time, for a total of 6 points over a 12 game stretch. 0.5 ppg isn't bad, but it certainly isn't anything great either. I already broke down his November stretch with Bozak out earlier in this thread.

You're right that some of those games were tough opponents. Even considering that, the results were just ok. He was a - GF/GA in 3 out of those 4 tough games and even in the other one.

 

[bobber]

Since when did sharpening skates have to do with Kadri being compared to one of the best all around skaters in history. You compared the 2, not me. You have proved nothing. They are not similar as skaters.

Again, is Kadri as fast, does he have the acceleration, balance, ellusiveness, and speed of Gretzky? Answer is no. So saying mentioning them together is simply a BAD opinion. I would even term it a silly incorrect opinion.

I like how you came around and said Gretzky is a great skater when I challenged you, then in the same sentence implied he wasn't, when you throw in he was not/never fast. Was he slow then? Michael Jackson couldn't dance better around addressing topics. You can keep on waxing poetic about skate sharpening and edges, what does this prove? They can both sharpen skates? Silly statement again.

Gretzky was a marvelous skater who was fast, fast enough to score the most breakaway goals in NHL history, fast enough to lead the fastest team in history. Kadri has no resemblace to him. It is a bad comparison, a terrible opinion. It is wrong.

Here is a 35 year old Gretzky skating fast and away from Devils that include Neidermayer and Guerin to score a shorthanded goal. If you can, Please explain how a Gretzky is not a fast skater as you continue to claim in this video. He was not even in his prime here yet he was faster than 2 fast skaters. This video speaks louder than any quote you post.

Never fast? This couldn't be more wrong. I'll await an answer, if none is forthcoming, I will surmise the discussion is closed since no one with a straight face can claim in your words "Gretzky was never fast" watching the Video below.

I don't understand why this comparison keeps coming up when all that was said was the skating style was similar. The Leafs in all there history have never had a player one tenth of the talent Gretzky had. Why keep hammering at the same issue when there was nothing to it to begin with. I read an article today regarding Ty Gretzky.his skating style is very similar to his dad. It was emphizied that he is not anywhere close to the player his dad was. Same thing with Naz.