Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

[Willis88]

Yes, those games were cancelled but it will be a shortened season and they could start before Dec 1st if they come to an agreement this week.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but regular season games cannot begin before december 1st now. No matter what. I don't think their will be a pre-season either obviously. Training camp can start whenever though.

 

[Barrie22]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but regular season games cannot begin before december 1st now. No matter what. I don't think their will be a pre-season either obviously. Training camp can start whenever though.

so you are telling me, that if they come out of a meeting today with signed papers saying cba done deal, all voted on, they would have to wait 27 days just to play a game?

just because games are cancelled through november 30th, doesn't mean if they come to a deal today they can't start on the 24th.

technically as it stands right now the entire season schedule (as we know it) is cancelled they cannot play off of that season schedule any more.

 

[Kane One]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying but regular season games cannot begin before december 1st now. No matter what. I don't think their will be a pre-season either obviously. Training camp can start whenever though.

Why not? If they signed a new CBA today, they can play tomorrow if they really wanted to.

 

[Willis88]

Why not? If they signed a new CBA today, they can play tomorrow if they really wanted to.

No, they can't. All of november is cancelled. The deed was done and the arenas were able to book concerts and so forth all throughout the month. The month is dead for NHL games. December 1st would be the start date.

 

[Willis88]

so you are telling me, that if they come out of a meeting today with signed papers saying cba done deal, all voted on, they would have to wait 27 days just to play a game?

just because games are cancelled through november 30th, doesn't mean if they come to a deal today they can't start on the 24th.

technically as it stands right now the entire season schedule (as we know it) is cancelled they cannot play off of that season schedule any more.

Ha, I was told that the month is cancelled in its entirety to allow arenas to schedule other events to make income. I don't see how they could go back on their word of canceling a month of games. They would start whichever games begin december 1st.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

No, they can't. All of november is cancelled. The deed was done and the arenas were able to book concerts and so forth all throughout the month. The month is dead for NHL games. December 1st would be the start date.

I guarantee you most of those open dates have not been filled. You can't schedule events by snapping your fingers. It's a multiple week process.

If they signed a CBA tomorrow, a November 15th start date would be possible, IMO.

 

[rdawg1234]

would training camp still be possible prior to dec 1st? I wouldnt mind getting that week out of the way early.

What are we looking at for a dec 1st start anyway, 60 games?

 

[Barrie22]

No, they can't. All of november is cancelled. The deed was done and the arenas were able to book concerts and so forth all throughout the month. The month is dead for NHL games. December 1st would be the start date.

so now you are saying that every arena booked something for every single day in november and its just impossible to start before december 1st?

your reasoning is not making sense, the nhl will not wait a freaking month to start up the season and lose out on even more potential games, just because they said they cancelled all games through november. cancelling games by month just means that if they agree today to a cba, those games couldn't possibly be played as they are scheduled.

the schedule as we know its done, don't go off of that schedule. a completely new shortened schedule will be thought of once this cba is a done deal.

 

[Renbarg]

I guarantee you most of those open dates have not been filled. You can't schedule events by snapping your fingers. It's a multiple week process.

If they signed a CBA tomorrow, a November 15th start date would be possible, IMO.

This. Many of dates are still open. And if not those exact dates there are not open, many other open dates throughout the week are. Some arenas may be have more open dates than others but then those teams can start on the road.


Having said that, I doubt they sign a CBA by tomorrow. It could take a couple weeks, even if they had significant movement yesterday.

 

[Kane One]

Ha, I was told that the month is cancelled in its entirety to allow arenas to schedule other events to make income. I don't see how they could go back on their word of canceling a month of games. They would start whichever games begin december 1st.

So what you're saying is that every arena is now completely booked?

Madison Square Garden (who I believe usually has the second-most events in the world) is free from this Tuesday-Thursday.

If a deal got done, they wouldn't be allowed to play there just because of their "word"? They weren't promising anything when they said that. If a deal is done, they will try their best to get as many games in as possible, even in November.

 

[rdawg1234]

so now you are saying that every arena booked something for every single day in november and its just impossible to start before december 1st?

your reasoning is not making sense, the nhl will not wait a freaking month to start up the season and lose out on even more potential games, just because they said they cancelled all games through november. cancelling games by month just means that if they agree today to a cba, those games couldn't possibly be played as they are scheduled.

the schedule as we know its done, don't go off of that schedule. a completely new shortened schedule will be thought of once this cba is a done deal.

You just answered your question there, you cant have the season start early if half the arenas are booked for something else.(And thats why they cancelled the month, so the owners could fill the arenas with other stuff)

this is pointless anyway, the cba will not be signed tomorrow, this is most likely going to take another week or two to roll out if it gains traction, so a dec 1st start is fairly likely.

 

[Barrie22]

Ha, I was told that the month is cancelled in its entirety to allow arenas to schedule other events to make income. I don't see how they could go back on their word of canceling a month of games. They would start whichever games begin december 1st.

no they would not just pick up the schedule where it started on december 1st, the entire schedule as we know it (what should be being played right now, is done, its completely useless, its thrown out the window, the season as we knew it before the cba was expired is basically wiped out, cancelled, non existent, finished, waste of time)

 

[mossey3535]

The original proposals of the NHL owners while egregous on their face were designed to focus the PA on % of HRR or total $$ while the real issues they wanted was to able to control player movement and value over the life of a players career. I'm wondering why so many here are having difficulty grasping that concept.

Oh well lets hope that the meetings yesterday did focus on the issues of player rights and movement and that there was some constructive movement. If not, well the season is probably lost.

I don't think this is a worthwhile conclusion. Except for the severe limiting of the total contract length, the FA provisions in the last NHL offer are only +/- 1 year of being acceptable (i.e. the same as the last CBA). I'm not sure how you can assert that the NHL is trying to severely curtail FA movement when the UFA age is proposed at 28/8, from 27/7 previously.

Also, the NHLPA hasn't offered a plan to date that addresses FA issues. The total money paid out might be higher priority to them, but FA issues have always been 'oh and we don't like those' - to be honest there's nothing in their proposals that indicates that they care about increased contractual rights (although you're right that they should).

I think history has proven that stars will get overpaid somehow. I expect that to continue no matter what the CBA signed is.

 

[Kane One]

You just answered your question there, you cant have the season start early if half the arenas are booked for something else.(And thats why they cancelled the month, so the owners could fill the arenas with other stuff)

this is pointless anyway, the cba will not be signed tomorrow, this is most likely going to take another week or two to roll out if it gains traction, so a dec 1st start is fairly likely.

Not only is not even close to half of all arenas are booked, I don't there's a single arena that's booked for all of November.

 

[rdawg1234]

no they would not just pick up the schedule where it started on december 1st, the entire schedule as we know it (what should be being played right now, is done, its completely useless, its thrown out the window, the season as we knew it before the cba was expired is basically wiped out, cancelled, non existent, finished, waste of time)

lol yes they would, they were going to when they wanted to start november 2nd.

Why make up a new schedule? just use this one and add the odd game to each week.

 

[Willis88]

I guarantee you most of those open dates have not been filled. You can't schedule events by snapping your fingers. It's a multiple week process.

If they signed a CBA tomorrow, a November 15th start date would be possible, IMO.

I'm totally aware it doesn't happen in the snap of a finger. I've been explained the process of booking these events. I guess we'll see. I'd love for the season to start sooner but i'm under the impression that when they announce a cancellation, they are well aware things could change and instead of canceling a week at a time, they killed the whole month. I don't see how they can go back on their word to all the teams in the league after letting them begin process' of finding other events to fulfill the month.

 

[Willis88]

lol yes they would, they were going to when they wanted to start november 2nd.

Why make up a new schedule? just use this one and add the odd game to each week.

When october was cancelled, everyone was told that the schedule was the exact same with an added game every few weeks or something.

 

[Willis88]

Not only is not even close to half of all arenas are booked, I don't there's a single arena that's booked for all of November.

Haha okay, we'll see. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter how booked they are. The month was cancelled. Completely cancelled.

 

[Renbarg]

lol yes they would, they were going to when they wanted to start november 2nd.

Why make up a new schedule? just use this one and add the odd game to each week.

I think its more complicated than that. You have to make a balanced schedule. For example, some teams went on their west or east coast swing within the first month of the season. How are you going to add a two week trip?

 

[Barrie22]

lol yes they would, they were going to when they wanted to start november 2nd.

Why make up a new schedule? just use this one and add the odd game to each week.

tell me, just exactly were they going to use the exact same schedule if the season started exactly a month late missing roughly 6 games on average per team from the lost october?

they might use the current schedule as a blue print, but they will not keep an uneven schedule. some teams might play there own coference 20 times, while another team in that conference plays only 10 times with the shortened season. that is not going to happen, unless of course they get rid of conferences/divisions completely.

 

[zx81]

Pretty sure that there won't be regular season inter-conference games this year.

 

[mossey3535]

Sorry, Canadian Guy. You and I have a miscommunication here. I understand everything you wrote. But, in my post earlier, I was quoting another poster who said that the HRR% was not the sticking point. That poster said the real argument between the players and owners was the contract length and player movement rights. I was trying to understand why that would be. And, I still am.

I understand the HRR% and the Make Whole stuff. Not sure who is right, because I can't see the books. I am really trying to understand the financial advantages to owners between these 2 situations:

1) HRR% = 50%. Make whole - owners cover 90%. UFA rights begin at age 29. Contracts are limited to 5 years....

or

2) HRR% = 50%. Make whole - owners cover 90%. UFA rights begin at age 27. Contracts limited to 8 years (or 10 yrs).

Compare those 2. I can see individual players wanting #2. If I think I am better than I really am, I want a chance at that windfall. That's the players' side.

But, again, where is the edge for the owners? The only one I can see is for middle and low revenue teams being able to hold onto good and star players.

Is there any other?

The edge is that the owners covering a good portion of make whole would translate to the soft landing everyone around here has been proposing.

They get their 50/50 split, as desired, and instant relief for the first two years. Those two years also happen to have 431 (not counting the 79 currently without contracts) UFA's. Those guys will all be signed to lower deals.

The highest paid players can still get 20% of the cap. Like I always say, stars get overpaid. That's just the way it is.

If I was the owners I would tweak the cap range though.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Not entirely clear what this means. Salary and cap hits already accompany trades in most cases, don't they?

Team that trades player can pay up to 3 M of his salary/cap hit and it goes on the team's cap.

Team that acquires player gets a player cheaper than cap hit.

It was a limit of 5 M, IIRC.

 

[rdawg1234]

I think its more complicated than that. You have to make a balanced schedule. For example, some teams went on their west or east coast swing within the first month of the season. How are you going to add a two week trip?

Well they were going to use it in November(3 weeks after the season started), why not do it in December.

it's already in the plans, might make a few adjustments but it's far easier to use an already made schedule than to make an entirely new one.

Making a new one would take ALONG time, it's quite hard to make these things.

 

[PKarey Plekoretty]

Pretty sure that there won't be regular season inter-conference games this year.

That'd be a real shame... although I just want the league back up and running, so I wouldn't complain either way

If they can put together a 64 game season say, they might be able to squeeze in a few groups of inter conference games?