Let us take a stroll down Carlyle road (One Year Anniversary)

X66

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Aug 18, 2008
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A 175 game sample size isnt a large enough? Maybe Carlyles system just lended itself to high shooting percentages and high save percentages. 175 games and they won about as many games as one could expect with that roster. Why does it matter if they "looked like hot garbage if they won as many games as expected? I'll take an above average record over a below average record any day. But hey if you only care about what the team looks like and find records/standings meaningless thats up to you.

This is primitive thinking IMO.

You build a foundation and move forward.

The reason I want this team to play the right way is because I want future players and prospects that enter the system to have an easier transition and see a sense of direction on how to play.

What could a player learn under Carlyle the way he coached the last 4 years? That's wasted time(years) and wasted efforts. His spinning wheels style of coaching was exactly that, a gigantic time waste.
 

Pookie

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Getting dominated game in and game out wasn't average, that's terrible.

The record is meaningless to me because I watched the product, that record is only salvaged due to the best save percentages in franchise history in consecutive years...and no, that's not in Carlyle's control

um… yeah…

[pre]
Coach GP Save Percentage
Babcock 39 0.917
Horachek 42 0.901
Carlyle 188 0.912
Wilson 310 0.895
[/pre]

So…. um…. a record salvaged by the best save percentages in franchise history… um… yeah… that defines Babcock more than it does our most recent coaches.


:shakehead
 

shelf

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Nov 4, 2006
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This is primitive thinking IMO.

You build a foundation and move forward.

The reason I want this team to play the right way is because I want future players and prospects that enter the system to have an easier transition and see a sense of direction on how to play.

What could a player learn under Carlyle the way he coached the last 4 years? That's wasted time(years) and wasted efforts. His spinning wheels style of coaching was exactly that, a gigantic time waste.

What makes you believe that players didnt learn anything under Carlye? If Carlyle had been spewing out the "its a process" line like Babcock would you then suddenly believe he was a better coach. Carlyle was building a foundation and moving forward. Players did learn under Carlyle. It wasnt a great foundation, and players werent learning a ton. Carlye was and is average.
 

X66

114-110
Aug 18, 2008
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So…. um…. a record salvaged by the best save percentages in franchise history… um… yeah… that defines Babcock more than it does our most recent coaches.



:shakehead

Bernier put up the highest save percentage in Leafs history for a goalie that played over 50 games...lol

Remier put up the highest save percentage ever recorded for the franchise the year the made the playoffs.

Both years the leafs were hot Garbage and salvaged wins because of that.

But you really do like grasping at straws like you did back at SN ;)
 

shelf

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Bernier put up the highest save percentage in Leafs history for a goalie that played over 50 games...lol

Remier put up the highest save percentage ever recorded for the franchise the year the made the playoffs.

Both years the leafs were hot Garbage and salvaged wins because of that.

But you really do like grasping at straws like you did back at SN ;)

So Bernier and Reimer are just the best goalies of Leafs franchise history.
 

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Bernier put up the highest save percentage in Leafs history for a goalie that played over 50 games...lol

Remier put up the highest save percentage ever recorded for the franchise the year the made the playoffs.

Both years the leafs were hot Garbage and salvaged wins because of that.

But you really do like grasping at straws like you did back at SN ;)

Sorry but that's not not what the numbers show.
 

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Bernier put up the highest save percentage in Leafs history for a goalie that played over 50 games...lol

Remier put up the highest save percentage ever recorded for the franchise the year the made the playoffs.

Both years the leafs were hot Garbage and salvaged wins because of that.

But you really do like grasping at straws like you did back at SN ;)

So, your narrative is that Randy was outshot and relied on outstanding goaltending to win games?

In the Leafs 16 wins under Babcock, they have been outshot by a combined 23 shots… being outshot a total of 9 times.

And this save percentage that you claim saved Randy? It averages .958 in those wins.
 

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Take away Carlyle's shootout wins (glorified coin flip) and his record gets a lot worse.

Sure. As does Babcock's. Fewest ROWs in the league right now.

(I'm not a Carlyle fan club member, just think that a guy who has coached over 700 NHL games doesn't deserve to be rolled through the mud).
 

X66

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Aug 18, 2008
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So, your narrative is that Randy was outshot and relied on outstanding goaltending to win games?

No.

That might be how you want to take it because you've been debunked in this argument many times(across many threads) by many different posters.

The narrative is actually how this team isn't getting dominated game in, game out. The Narrative is how we haven't given up franchise WORST shot differentials in consecutive years. The Narrative is having a coach that doesn't play primitive 3 line hockey. etc. etc. etc.

Here are the leafs prime shooting locations for and against, and the quality of the shots under Babcock

547vh0.png


Pretty respectable, they have been giving up less changes against than they ever had under Carlyle

Here is it under Carlyle last year

33ncefk.png


Lol...

Here is Carlyle the year before that!

2ms1ocl.png


Lol x2

And for good measure, here is the year the Leafs made the playoffs in the shortened season, also under Carlyle

mb6bl1.png


Trifecta Lol.

But hey, 700 games, he's a great coach, am I doing this right?

If you enjoy watching teams get dominated on the regular, I suggest you watch the Sens play instead, I'm sure they fight more as well!

lol
 

Ash35

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Jan 29, 2010
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So, your narrative is that Randy was outshot and relied on outstanding goaltending to win games?

In the Leafs 16 wins under Babcock, they have been outshot by a combined 23 shots… being outshot a total of 9 times.

And this save percentage that you claim saved Randy? It averages .958 in those wins.

Getting out shot by barely a shot a game Is hardly getting out shot. You also have to look at where the shots are coming from. Few second chances, few out man rushes, few point blank chances. Reimer himself said it's so much easier playing goal this year.
 

Slot

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Mar 6, 2012
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So yesterday was the one year anniversary over the firing of Randy Carlyle, the worst coach the Leafs employed in decades.

I made a thread a few weeks before his firing and highlighted these key points

_
Reasons Carlyle needs to go

- Randy Carlyle has coached the Leafs to two consecutive franchise worst shots for/against differential. Leafs were out shot by an average of 6 shots during the lockout year and 8 shots during last season. There have been far worse assembled NHL rosters than those 2 teams, yet those teams did not play nearly as putrid.

- Randy Carlyle has coached teams to terrible Fenwick and Corsi stats for the last half decade, for all the advanced stats geeks like myself, this is important. Once again, this is a sample of two teams. Players such as Nikolai Kulemin, Mikhail Grabovski and Clarke MacArthur that were good to excellent possession players became terrible under Carlyle. Once those players were jettisoned from the team(with some parting words from Grabovski and MacArthur), they once again regained their strong possession play.

- Randy Carlyle does not utilize his full roster. Look around at every single successful NHL team, they all have important minutes allocated to their 4th line. Playing players 5 minutes a game is not the way the contemporary game is being played. The season is a marathon, not a sprint and that is something Carlyle still does not understand. This trend has not changed during this current season either, despite General Manager Dave Nonis urging the team during the off-season to utilize a full roster.

That list should be enough to even make ECHL teams think twice about hiring Carlyle as a coach.

_

Now looking back, can we finally all agree that he was horrendous?

Each one of these points has been corrected so far:

1)Leafs no longer own embarrassing shots for/against numbers. The Leafs are also not badly out chanced every game.

2)Leafs possession stat has increased nearly 5%, which is a pretty significant jump. Leafs sit at around 50% possession right now, which is a far cry from where it ever was under Carlyle. It still needs to improve to get into that elite group, but when you consider the majority of this teams future is not on this roster, it's impressive to see what Babcock has done with the line-up.

3)Gone are the days of the useless goons occupying a roster spot. We have a coach now that actually plays the entire roster, what a shocker. Carlyle's primitive 3 line hockey was one of the biggest reason this team was getting dominated and losing battles to fatigue so often. Actually playing your fourth line is huge, every modern team does...

NOW, you're going to have people come in here and say "Look at the Leafs record this year". I'm a fan that doesn't care about the record this year because I actually want to see a product that is setting things up for the future. Leafs can finish dead last and if they're playing the way they are, I'd say it was a great success(and that top 4 pick helps too!).

The reason for that is, Carlyle made this team un-watchable to me. How fun is it to watch your team get dominated year after year, the majority of the games and against all team levels. Even games where the Leafs won on the back of Reimer and Bernier weren't enjoyable.

This product is actually hockey, there is a strategy that involves plays in all 3 zones, when did you ever see that with Carlyle?

Under Carlyle you had NHL players say that the Leafs were by far the easiest team to play against. Now you have players and coaches saying they resemble the Red Wings in style.

A lot can happen and the Leafs can go down the drain from this day on, but this isn't a pump Babcock's tire thread, but more so a thank GOD Carlyle is gone thread.

May Carlyle bless a rival team with a hiring.

:nod:

Please make the bad man stop!
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Been living it since I came to Canada as a young one and was told I was going to be a Leafs fan...

I was born into it near on many many many... many... many many many many decades ago.
Trust me. What goes on off the ice usually more entertaining than what happens on it.

Never boring. ;)
 

Slot

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Mar 6, 2012
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I was born into it near on many many many... many... many many many many decades ago.
Trust me. What goes on off the ice usually more entertaining than what happens on it.

Never boring. ;)

Raising my boys right. The way I figure it being a leafs fan prepares one for life's bitter disappointments after things start with such high hopes.
 

finnbalor*

Guest
Love that the internet standard of what makes a good coach is team corsi, myopic analysis disguising itself an insightful...
 

indigobuffalo

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Feb 10, 2011
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Remember all the people saying that it wasn't the coach, it was the roster?

That it wasn't the system, it was the players not caring?

Turns out it was. It was entirely the coach and the system. The harder the tried to stick to his backwards system, the more they failed.

Kessel was moved out at under market value for a reason. And look how "explosive" he is on a stacked Pens team.

Carlyle had limited scoring talent on the team and devised a system that was high-risk, high-reward, and utilized the few strengths the roster had.

Couple that with very good line matching, and Carlyle managed to get a lot out of a pretty bad roster.

Carlyle's roster compared to even Horachek's roster are drastically different, and Babcock had something like 60% new players.

I'm not going to suggest he was flawless, but saying things like worst coach in history are pretty far-fetched. He was also given a roster full of bad apples and forced to work with those players rather than have the power to demote or move down the lineup players that weren't doing what it takes to win.

Has anyone paid attention to the fact that Kessel already cost another coach his job out in Pittsburgh? There's an evident trend, here.
 

Slot

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Mar 6, 2012
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Kessel was moved out at under market value for a reason. And look how "explosive" he is on a stacked Pens team.

Carlyle had limited scoring talent on the team and devised a system that was high-risk, high-reward, and utilized the few strengths the roster had.

Couple that with very good line matching, and Carlyle managed to get a lot out of a pretty bad roster.

Carlyle's roster compared to even Horachek's roster are drastically different, and Babcock had something like 60% new players.

I'm not going to suggest he was flawless, but saying things like worst coach in history are pretty far-fetched. He was also given a roster full of bad apples and forced to work with those players rather than have the power to demote or move down the lineup players that weren't doing what it takes to win.

Has anyone paid attention to the fact that Kessel already cost another coach his job out in Pittsburgh? There's an evident trend, here.

That firing took a lot more than kessel that was a full committee job. Carlyle lost the room with his favourite playing ways. Top line dogging it? Bench the 4th line! The inmates were running the asylum by the end of his tenure. Babcock, if nothing else has held everyone equally accountable for their on ice performances. First time in a long time that this has happened.
 

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When did you move from save percentages to those charts on shots?

Wasn't your point that that "record is only salvaged due to the best save percentages in franchise history in consecutive years" ?

Yep. That was your point all right. I guess you've figured out that .917 is better than .912 so we can move on

And now you are on to the shot differentials?

If shot differentials are important now, riddle me this… what did you think of Ron Wilson?

Here's what history thought of him:

[pre]
Coach SF/G SA/G Difference
Babcock 31.08 31.15 -0.08
Wilson 30.65 30.42 0.24
[/pre]

To your point though, if only Ronnie had Babcock's goaltending… maybe he never would have left.

[pre]
Coach Save Percentage
Babcock 0.917
Wilson 0.895
[/pre]
 

Pookie

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That firing took a lot more than kessel that was a full committee job. Carlyle lost the room with his favourite playing ways. Top line dogging it? Bench the 4th line! The inmates were running the asylum by the end of his tenure. Babcock, if nothing else has held everyone equally accountable for their on ice performances. First time in a long time that this has happened.

I never liked how the first line would see their minutes unchanged. It was the same under Horachek too.

That said, you had a different ownership mentality then. There was no scorched earth. It was about playoffs and the brand was suffering in both ratings, secondary ticket sales and bad publicity.

The smartest thing Shanahan/Lou did was putting 18 players under really short term contracts and giving the Coach a much longer shelf life than any of the players.
 

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